209 réponses à ce sujet

[Galifreya]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If you ignore large chunks of the lore about indoctrination and instead assume that, instead of just being subliminal signals, indoctrination is some kind of Inception-style battle of wills between the victim and the Reapers then sure.

If you have a flick through the codex, you'll see that Shepard never really exhibits any of the hallmarks of indoctrination (feelings of being watched, hallucinations - which by their very nature take place during your waking hours, not during dreams, so the dream sequences aren't proof of indoctrination to any extent). Plus, there has never been any indication that indoctrination leads to the victim imagining some kind of dream world in which the Reapers try to trick you into becoming indoctrinated. It doesn't fit with the lore.

Because indoctrinating the "incredibly strong willed" takes time, and a whole lot of patience. You can't just indoctrinate and be done with it. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated. Did he present any of these signs? Not as far as I know.

We don't follow TIM around for the entire game. We have three conversations with him before the end, and we never see him outside of those conversations.

During the entirety of ME3, Shepard exhibits none of the symptoms of indoctrination. So its safe to assume that either he isn't indoctrinated at all, or not to any meaningful level.

However, he can suddenly become fully indoctrinated at the end despite, as you say, it taking a long time to indoctrinate strong-willed individuals. This is where the theory falls apart: there's no evidence of indoctrination prior to the end sequence, and yet the theory requires Shepard to be very highly indoctrinated by this point.

The theory only works if you don't think about it too much. Which doesn't make it any better than the real endings.

The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 11 avril 2012 - 03:19 .

[Drake-Shepard]

@GnusmasTHX

So the building blowing up moments after the vent boy enters is bad writing?
Then coincidently anderson doesn't notice him in the vent but shep does? followed by reaper sound and boy vanishing with batman skills.
Then on the shuttle....people are carrying injured soldiers...BW writers thought it important to show people interacting but they forgot about the Kid??!
Quite a few coincidences. Sometimes i wonder who is clutching at straws.

reference 
 
2 min 15

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 11 avril 2012 - 03:19 .

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

After his second dream, he wakes up in a chair with a data pad in his hand, waking dream? vision?

http://www.youtube.c...f4qlJrprs#t=85s

In order to wake up, you have to have been asleep. Making it a dream, and not a hallucination.

[Spectre-61]

variobunz wrote...

The following is from another user in another thread (not far far away):

"You see a boy playing with the model of the Normandy. Everything is ok, but after the attack, you see this boy run into a locked room -- this is also ok, but what happens next is not. A reaper laser hits that building causing an explosion of such magnitude that the ALLOY SECURITY DOORS are blown slam out. This would create a pneumatic pressure change that would have been so great inside that building that your blood would have boiled from the sheer recoil of the air-pressure resettling causing in your own body exploding. Even if you were hiding in an air shaft directly connected to the room. The authors aren't retards, so there is no reason why anyone should try and refute "decompression syndrome" as being something the writers didn't know about. Then this boy makes another appearance, disconnected with any other humans around him - in fact the only 2 "things" the boy looks at, is Shep and the Reaper. Folks, I've seen war, I'm an OEF veteran, I'm sure these Canadian developers have seen it too because I've been there and seen their flag on their uniforms via some of my tours -- they know the INSTANT reaction a soldier has to seeing a child wandering a battle field -- it is immediate compassion charged defensive response. This was devoided in the scene very much so on purpose. But it is not even that, Anderson whom stands right behind you in this little room did not hear the boy nor did he see him, and the boy vanishes with only a "growl" as a audible signature."

[rachellouise]

Dreaming you're running in slow motion usually means you're stressed, and feeling powerless.
I doubt it's more than BW using Shepard's dreams to convey what she (or he) is feeling inside

Modifié par rachellouise, 11 avril 2012 - 03:22 .

[Lyrebon]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If you ignore large chunks of the lore about indoctrination and instead assume that, instead of just being subliminal signals, indoctrination is some kind of Inception-style battle of wills between the victim and the Reapers then sure.

If you have a flick through the codex, you'll see that Shepard never really exhibits any of the hallmarks of indoctrination (feelings of being watched, hallucinations - which by their very nature take place during your waking hours, not during dreams, so the dream sequences aren't proof of indoctrination to any extent). Plus, there has never been any indication that indoctrination leads to the victim imagining some kind of dream world in which the Reapers try to trick you into becoming indoctrinated. It doesn't fit with the lore.

Because indoctrinating the "incredibly strong willed" takes time, and a whole lot of patience. You can't just indoctrinate and be done with it. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated. Did he present any of these signs? Not as far as I know.

We don't follow TIM around for the entire game. We have three conversations with him before the end, and we never see him outside of those conversations.

During the entirety of ME3, Shepard exhibits none of the symptoms of indoctrination. So its safe to assume that either he isn't indoctrinated at all, or not to any meaningful level.

However, he can suddenly become fully indoctrinated at the end despite, as you say, it taking a long time to indoctrinate strong-willed individuals. This is where the theory falls apart: there's no evidence of indoctrination prior to the end sequence, and yet the theory requires Shepard to be very highly indoctrinated by this point.

The theory only works if you don't think about it too much. Which doesn't make it any better than the real endings.

But remember how Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated, he just "agreed" with Sovereign? He said indoctrination can be a slow, subtle process, or a rapid but degenerative enslavement. It depended on the person the Reapers were dealing with and Saren was a high-ranking operative with close ties to the intergalactic council.

At the end Saren still thought what he was doing was of his own volition until Shepard pointed out he was being controlled, at which point he tries to resist and, ultimately, commits suicide. Saren was indoctrinated so subtley that even he thought he was still in control of himself.

The Reapers didn't really have to push a rapid indoctrination on Shepard until she almost completed her goals to destroy the them. They thought they could take control slowly but Shepard's will determined a different course of action.

IT isn't as convoluted and poorly thought as you might imagine.

[GnusmasTHX]

variobunz wrote...

The following is from another user in another thread (not far far away):

"You see a boy playing with the model of the Normandy. Everything is ok, but after the attack, you see this boy run into a locked room -- this is also ok, but what happens next is not. A reaper laser hits that building causing an explosion of such magnitude that the ALLOY SECURITY DOORS are blown slam out. This would create a pneumatic pressure change that would have been so great inside that building that your blood would have boiled from the sheer recoil of the air-pressure resettling causing in your own body exploding. Even if you were hiding in an air shaft directly connected to the room. The authors aren't retards, so there is no reason why anyone should try and refute "decompression syndrome" as being something the writers didn't know about. Then this boy makes another appearance, disconnected with any other humans around him - in fact the only 2 "things" the boy looks at, is Shep and the Reaper. Folks, I've seen war, I'm an OEF veteran, I'm sure these Canadian developers have seen it too because I've been there and seen their flag on their uniforms via some of my tours -- they know the INSTANT reaction a soldier has to seeing a child wandering a battle field -- it is immediate compassion charged defensive response. This was devoided in the scene very much so on purpose. But it is not even that, Anderson whom stands right behind you in this little room did not hear the boy nor did he see him, and the boy vanishes with only a "growl" as a audible signature."

Except for the fact that the laser doesn't damage the building to that degree. Never mind the fact that the door probably isn't especially blast proof given that you're on the top of a building.

The ONLY evidence of that kind of force is the outside door blasting off. The inside door happens to just... jam. And there's remarkably little destruction in the room itself.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 11 avril 2012 - 03:23 .

[Candidate 88766]

Gallifreya wrote...
The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

If you have to ignore the lore to believe the theory then something is obviously wrong with it.

Indoctrination is subliminal signals that permanently change brain functions. Even if you know its happenng, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If Shepard becomes aware of the indoctrination, then the only way to avoid further indoctrination is to stay as far away from Reapers as possible, which is a desireable outcome for the Reapers. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then the Reapers have a useful servant. If he becomes aware of it, he must stay away from them and so they don't need to fear him as much. If he tells people he is becoming indoctrinated, they'll be slower to trust him and the Reapers win again.

They don't need to be sneaky about it.

[Candidate 88766]

variobunz wrote...

variobunz wrote...

The following is from another user in another thread (not far far away):

"You see a boy playing with the model of the Normandy. Everything is ok, but after the attack, you see this boy run into a locked room -- this is also ok, but what happens next is not. A reaper laser hits that building causing an explosion of such magnitude that the ALLOY SECURITY DOORS are blown slam out. This would create a pneumatic pressure change that would have been so great inside that building that your blood would have boiled from the sheer recoil of the air-pressure resettling causing in your own body exploding. Even if you were hiding in an air shaft directly connected to the room. The authors aren't retards, so there is no reason why anyone should try and refute "decompression syndrome" as being something the writers didn't know about. Then this boy makes another appearance, disconnected with any other humans around him - in fact the only 2 "things" the boy looks at, is Shep and the Reaper. Folks, I've seen war, I'm an OEF veteran, I'm sure these Canadian developers have seen it too because I've been there and seen their flag on their uniforms via some of my tours -- they know the INSTANT reaction a soldier has to seeing a child wandering a battle field -- it is immediate compassion charged defensive response. This was devoided in the scene very much so on purpose. But it is not even that, Anderson whom stands right behind you in this little room did not hear the boy nor did he see him, and the boy vanishes with only a "growl" as a audible signature."

Why isn't Shepard vapourised when Reaper beams hit right next to him on Tuchunka? 

[GnusmasTHX]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

@GnusmasTHX

So the building blowing up moments after the vent boy enters is bad writing?
Then coincidently anderson doesn't notice him in the vent but shep does? followed by reaper sound and boy vanishing with batman skills.
Then on the shuttle....people are carrying injured soldiers...BW writers thought it important to show people interacting but they forgot about the Kid??!
Quite a few coincidences. Sometimes i wonder who is clutching at straws.

reference 
 
2 min 15

No. It was obviously and deliberately for dramatic effect. Lack of logic and care for the kid makes the flaws of the scenes glaringly obvious.

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

After his second dream, he wakes up in a chair with a data pad in his hand, waking dream? vision?

http://www.youtube.c...f4qlJrprs#t=85s

Or he fell asleep while he was using it. That's never happend to anybody before.

Yep, a military commander falling asleep in his chair, I can see that happening on a lazy sunday afternoon ON EARTH, but for some reason I don't think Shep's the type that doses off while staring at a blank datapad...

Modifié par balance5050, 11 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[balance5050]

I.T. is so cool.

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

After his second dream, he wakes up in a chair with a data pad in his hand, waking dream? vision?

http://www.youtube.c...f4qlJrprs#t=85s

Or he fell asleep while he was using it. That's never happend to anybody before.

Yep, a military commander falling asleep in his chair, I can see that happening on a lazy sunday afternoon ON EARTH, but for some reason I don't think Shep's the type that doses off while staring at a blank datapad...

Yeah... The guy that is dealing with saving the galaxy and told to get some shut-eye doesn't sneak in a last couple minutes of work on a datapad before dozing off on a chair. How unlikely.

[Candidate 88766]

Lyrebon wrote...

But remember how Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated, he just "agreed" with Sovereign? He said indoctrination can be a slow, subtle process, or a rapid but degenerative enslavement. It depended on the person the Reapers were dealing with and Saren was a high-ranking operative with close ties to the intergalactic council.

At the end Saren still thought what he was doing was of his own volition until Shepard pointed out he was being controlled, at which point he tries to resist and, ultimately, commits suicide. Saren was indoctrinated so subtley that even he thought he was still in control of himself.

The Reapers didn't really have to push a rapid indoctrination on Shepard until she almost completed her goals to destroy the them. They thought they could take control slowly but Shepard's will determined a different course of action.

IT isn't as convoluted and poorly thought as you might imagine.

But the player would still see the symptoms of indoctrination, even if Shepard isn't aware of it.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

But remember how Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated, he just "agreed" with Sovereign? He said indoctrination can be a slow, subtle process, or a rapid but degenerative enslavement. It depended on the person the Reapers were dealing with and Saren was a high-ranking operative with close ties to the intergalactic council.

At the end Saren still thought what he was doing was of his own volition until Shepard pointed out he was being controlled, at which point he tries to resist and, ultimately, commits suicide. Saren was indoctrinated so subtley that even he thought he was still in control of himself.

The Reapers didn't really have to push a rapid indoctrination on Shepard until she almost completed her goals to destroy the them. They thought they could take control slowly but Shepard's will determined a different course of action.

IT isn't as convoluted and poorly thought as you might imagine.

But the player would still see the symptoms of indoctrination, even if Shepard isn't aware of it.

You do. Ghostly images, whispers, viewing reapers with superstitious awe.

[Galifreya]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

If you have to ignore the lore to believe the theory then something is obviously wrong with it.

Indoctrination is subliminal signals that permanently change brain functions. Even if you know its happenng, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If Shepard becomes aware of the indoctrination, then the only way to avoid further indoctrination is to stay as far away from Reapers as possible, which is a desireable outcome for the Reapers. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then the Reapers have a useful servant. If he becomes aware of it, he must stay away from them and so they don't need to fear him as much. If he tells people he is becoming indoctrinated, they'll be slower to trust him and the Reapers win again.

They don't need to be sneaky about it.

The Reapers want to control Shepard because they have "taken an interest." Harbinger himself has the opportunity to kill Shepard in Arrival. Yet he doesn't. They "need Shepard alive." Why? What for? If it's better for them if Shepard is dead, why?

I'm not the one ignoring the lore, here.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 11 avril 2012 - 03:30 .

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

EC pretty much rules out IT. If you don't believe so that's as much denial as IT itself is.

Not really, it differs from personto person and the means for indoctrination, the scientist on the Derelict ship were complaining of nightmares, and Rana Thanoptis had the Indoctrination lie dormant until the reapers arrived.

They complained of seeing hallucinations during their waking hours (such as feelings of being watched and seeing shapes moving out of the croner of their eyes), and having shared memories. 

Shepard never experiences these.

Ever.

After his second dream, he wakes up in a chair with a data pad in his hand, waking dream? vision?

http://www.youtube.c...f4qlJrprs#t=85s

Or he fell asleep while he was using it. That's never happend to anybody before.

Yep, a military commander falling asleep in his chair, I can see that happening on a lazy sunday afternoon ON EARTH, but for some reason I don't think Shep's the type that doses off while staring at a blank datapad...

Yeah... The guy that is dealing with saving the galaxy and told to get some shut-eye doesn't sneak in a last couple minutes of work on a datapad before dozing off on a chair. How unlikely.

The data pad was blank and then he pressed a button which made it... more blank?

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

But remember how Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated, he just "agreed" with Sovereign? He said indoctrination can be a slow, subtle process, or a rapid but degenerative enslavement. It depended on the person the Reapers were dealing with and Saren was a high-ranking operative with close ties to the intergalactic council.

At the end Saren still thought what he was doing was of his own volition until Shepard pointed out he was being controlled, at which point he tries to resist and, ultimately, commits suicide. Saren was indoctrinated so subtley that even he thought he was still in control of himself.

The Reapers didn't really have to push a rapid indoctrination on Shepard until she almost completed her goals to destroy the them. They thought they could take control slowly but Shepard's will determined a different course of action.

IT isn't as convoluted and poorly thought as you might imagine.

But the player would still see the symptoms of indoctrination, even if Shepard isn't aware of it.

You do. Ghostly images, whispers, viewing reapers with superstitious awe.

The first two are during dreams, and dreams are generally strange (moreso in games and films where the writers try to make dreams appear strange). The symptoms of indoctrination - feelings of being watched, hallucinations - take place during your waking hours.

And I'd imagine most people would be awed by mile-high machines.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

But remember how Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated, he just "agreed" with Sovereign? He said indoctrination can be a slow, subtle process, or a rapid but degenerative enslavement. It depended on the person the Reapers were dealing with and Saren was a high-ranking operative with close ties to the intergalactic council.

At the end Saren still thought what he was doing was of his own volition until Shepard pointed out he was being controlled, at which point he tries to resist and, ultimately, commits suicide. Saren was indoctrinated so subtley that even he thought he was still in control of himself.

The Reapers didn't really have to push a rapid indoctrination on Shepard until she almost completed her goals to destroy the them. They thought they could take control slowly but Shepard's will determined a different course of action.

IT isn't as convoluted and poorly thought as you might imagine.

But the player would still see the symptoms of indoctrination, even if Shepard isn't aware of it.

You do. Ghostly images, whispers, viewing reapers with superstitious awe.

The first two are during dreams, and dreams are generally strange (moreso in games and films where the writers try to make dreams appear strange). The symptoms of indoctrination - feelings of being watched, hallucinations - take place during your waking hours.

And I'd imagine most people would be awed by mile-high machines.

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

[Candidate 88766]

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

If you have to ignore the lore to believe the theory then something is obviously wrong with it.

Indoctrination is subliminal signals that permanently change brain functions. Even if you know its happenng, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If Shepard becomes aware of the indoctrination, then the only way to avoid further indoctrination is to stay as far away from Reapers as possible, which is a desireable outcome for the Reapers. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then the Reapers have a useful servant. If he becomes aware of it, he must stay away from them and so they don't need to fear him as much. If he tells people he is becoming indoctrinated, they'll be slower to trust him and the Reapers win again.

They don't need to be sneaky about it.

The Reapers want to control Shepard because they have "taken an interest." Harbinger himself has the opportunity to kill Shepard in Arrival. Yet he doesn't. They "need Shepard alive." Why? What for? If it's better for them if Shepard is dead, why?

I'm not the one ignoring the lore, here.

And yet when the guy they've been hunting for finally arrives on Earth and is right in front of Harbinger - the perfect opprtunity to capture him and fully indoctrinate him - they can offer you only one choice, and that choice is designed to allow Shepard to break free of indoctrination. Why offer that choice at all - and why sometimes make it the only choice - if they are not only very keen on capturing Shepard, but also when Shepard has pretty much been handed ot them?

And that doesn't change the fact that the theory ignores a large amount of the lore surrounding indoctrination. Me not mentioning the Reaper interest in Shepard doesn't make the theory more right. its just an attempt to dodge the issue.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

You mean the stuff that was only present while TIM controlled you and dissappeared when TIM died?

They are probably meant to be indicitive of TIM's control over Shepard. 

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

You mean the stuff that was only present while TIM controlled you and dissappeared when TIM died?

They are probably meant to be indicitive of TIM's control over Shepard. 

And the ghostly image of the boy that we see with superstitious awe. There has never been a case of an indoctrinated person being able to control a non-indoctrinated person, I'm sure Saren would have tried.

[Galifreya]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

If you have to ignore the lore to believe the theory then something is obviously wrong with it.

Indoctrination is subliminal signals that permanently change brain functions. Even if you know its happenng, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If Shepard becomes aware of the indoctrination, then the only way to avoid further indoctrination is to stay as far away from Reapers as possible, which is a desireable outcome for the Reapers. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then the Reapers have a useful servant. If he becomes aware of it, he must stay away from them and so they don't need to fear him as much. If he tells people he is becoming indoctrinated, they'll be slower to trust him and the Reapers win again.

They don't need to be sneaky about it.

The Reapers want to control Shepard because they have "taken an interest." Harbinger himself has the opportunity to kill Shepard in Arrival. Yet he doesn't. They "need Shepard alive." Why? What for? If it's better for them if Shepard is dead, why?

I'm not the one ignoring the lore, here.

And yet when the guy they've been hunting for finally arrives on Earth and is right in front of Harbinger - the perfect opprtunity to capture him and fully indoctrinate him - they can offer you only one choice, and that choice is designed to allow Shepard to break free of indoctrination. Why offer that choice at all - and why sometimes make it the only choice - if they are not only very keen on capturing Shepard, but also when Shepard has pretty much been handed ot them?

And that doesn't change the fact that the theory ignores a large amount of the lore surrounding indoctrination. Me not mentioning the Reaper interest in Shepard doesn't make the theory more right. its just an attempt to dodge the issue.

Because when they offer Destroy as the only choice, it means your Shepard did not do everything in his/her power to stop the Reapers. They don't believe you're worthy. Chances are, if you are a player who only got the Destroy option, your Shepard simply turns into a husk. Why do the Reapers want to control a slackass Shepard? Simple. They don't.

And I have already explained to you why Shepard's indoctrination had to be different - because Shepard is different. And she did hallucinate. IT states that the child is a hallucination the entire time.

[GnusmasTHX]

I have to ask: What do you guys think about Shepard admitting he just feels survivors guilt over the kid dying instead of him? Or is that irrelevant and the dreams are purely indoctrination?

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

If you have to ignore the lore to believe the theory then something is obviously wrong with it.

Indoctrination is subliminal signals that permanently change brain functions. Even if you know its happenng, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If Shepard becomes aware of the indoctrination, then the only way to avoid further indoctrination is to stay as far away from Reapers as possible, which is a desireable outcome for the Reapers. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then the Reapers have a useful servant. If he becomes aware of it, he must stay away from them and so they don't need to fear him as much. If he tells people he is becoming indoctrinated, they'll be slower to trust him and the Reapers win again.

They don't need to be sneaky about it.

The Reapers want to control Shepard because they have "taken an interest." Harbinger himself has the opportunity to kill Shepard in Arrival. Yet he doesn't. They "need Shepard alive." Why? What for? If it's better for them if Shepard is dead, why?

I'm not the one ignoring the lore, here.

And yet when the guy they've been hunting for finally arrives on Earth and is right in front of Harbinger - the perfect opprtunity to capture him and fully indoctrinate him - they can offer you only one choice, and that choice is designed to allow Shepard to break free of indoctrination. Why offer that choice at all - and why sometimes make it the only choice - if they are not only very keen on capturing Shepard, but also when Shepard has pretty much been handed ot them?

And that doesn't change the fact that the theory ignores a large amount of the lore surrounding indoctrination. Me not mentioning the Reaper interest in Shepard doesn't make the theory more right. its just an attempt to dodge the issue.

You need to be specific with "lore", the lore is one can be indoctrinated just by being around reaper tech and the vicitims usually don't know they have been indoctrinated.