209 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I have to ask: What do you guys think about Shepard admitting he just feels survivors guilt over the kid dying instead of him? Or is that irrelevant and the dreams are purely indoctrination?

The Shep is around a million deaths a day, most players feel worse about Thessia then that boy who sneaks his way into your dreams.

[Candidate 88766]

Gallifreya wrote...

Because when they offer Destroy as the only choice, it means your Shepard did not do everything in his/her power to stop the Reapers. They don't believe you're worthy. Chances are, if you are a player who only got the Destroy option, your Shepard simply turns into a husk. Why do the Reapers want to control a slackass Shepard? Simple. They don't.

And I have already explained to you why Shepard's indoctrination had to be different - because Shepard is different. And she did hallucinate. IT states that the child is a hallucination the entire time.

So they spend the entire game hunting for Shepard, find out that he has suceeded in building a device that can destroy them and, despite them retreating to Earth with the Citadel, he has arrived with a giant fleet and was mere feet away from reaching the Conduit beam and from there opening the Citadel.

And that after all this it isnt worth completing what they've apparently been trying to do for two games just because the fleet he gathered could have been bigger?

Not buying it.

[rachellouise]

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
The Reapers KNOW Shepard is aware of Indoctrination. TIM was also aware of Indoctrination. They know Shepard is on to them. If s/he suddenly started experiencing pink unicorns and actually felt like s/he was being indoctrinated, the jig would've been up. Shepard would've let someone know, and the Reapers' plan would fail.

Stop focussing so much on the codex entry, and try to think outside the text box. Shepard is DIFFERENT. Special. Thus, her indoctrination process is extremely different as well.

You've probably seen it in some sitcom or another: Pretty wife needs to let chubby husband think cleaning was HIS idea, or he'd never do it.

It had to be Shepard's choice/idea. Or Shepard, the character, would not let it happen.

If you have to ignore the lore to believe the theory then something is obviously wrong with it.

Indoctrination is subliminal signals that permanently change brain functions. Even if you know its happenng, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If Shepard becomes aware of the indoctrination, then the only way to avoid further indoctrination is to stay as far away from Reapers as possible, which is a desireable outcome for the Reapers. If Shepard becomes indoctrinated, then the Reapers have a useful servant. If he becomes aware of it, he must stay away from them and so they don't need to fear him as much. If he tells people he is becoming indoctrinated, they'll be slower to trust him and the Reapers win again.

They don't need to be sneaky about it.

The Reapers want to control Shepard because they have "taken an interest." Harbinger himself has the opportunity to kill Shepard in Arrival. Yet he doesn't. They "need Shepard alive." Why? What for? If it's better for them if Shepard is dead, why?

I'm not the one ignoring the lore, here.

And yet when the guy they've been hunting for finally arrives on Earth and is right in front of Harbinger - the perfect opprtunity to capture him and fully indoctrinate him - they can offer you only one choice, and that choice is designed to allow Shepard to break free of indoctrination. Why offer that choice at all - and why sometimes make it the only choice - if they are not only very keen on capturing Shepard, but also when Shepard has pretty much been handed ot them?

And that doesn't change the fact that the theory ignores a large amount of the lore surrounding indoctrination. Me not mentioning the Reaper interest in Shepard doesn't make the theory more right. its just an attempt to dodge the issue.

Because when they offer Destroy as the only choice, it means your Shepard did not do everything in his/her power to stop the Reapers. They don't believe you're worthy. Chances are, if you are a player who only got the Destroy option, your Shepard simply turns into a husk. Why do the Reapers want to control a slackass Shepard? Simple. They don't.

And I have already explained to you why Shepard's indoctrination had to be different - because Shepard is different. And she did hallucinate. IT states that the child is a hallucination the entire time.

And I have already explained to you why Shepard's indoctrination had to be different - because Shepard is different. And she did hallucinate. IT states that the child is a hallucination the entire time. 

so you're using the IT to support the IT? :/

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I have to ask: What do you guys think about Shepard admitting he just feels survivors guilt over the kid dying instead of him? Or is that irrelevant and the dreams are purely indoctrination?

The Shep is around a million deaths a day, most players feel worse about Thessia then that boy who sneaks his way into your dreams.

Doesn't really address my question. And Thessia hasn't happened when you have that conversation.

[chester013]

StElmo wrote...

Just finished ME3 for the first time tonight. Read about all the hate. Wanted to call everyone stupid whiney fanboys, but couldn't.

Watched this:

Now think indoctrination theory is the best thing ever. I love it! Does anyone know if bioware have confirmed it?

Nope it's fan fiction, a plausible theory but not one BW is going with. They will instead explain to me why the turd they left on my desk smells so bad.

Modifié par chester013, 11 avril 2012 - 03:49 .

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

You need to be specific with "lore", the lore is one can be indoctrinated just by being around reaper tech and the vicitims usually don't know they have been indoctrinated.

(from the codex)

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears.

Shepard never experiences these.

As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched"

Again, never happens.

and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences.

A hallucination takes place while you are awake, and so is distinct form a dream. Shepard doesn't see a 'ghostly presence' at any point, other than arguably the Catalyst right at the end.

Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

Note the word 'ultimately'. By the time Shepard would be hearing voices in his mind, he would be fully indoctrinated. The changes form it are permanent, so if you believe that the voices in the dreams indicate this final stage then the idea that Shepard can later break free of it by choosing destroy must be wrong.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Because when they offer Destroy as the only choice, it means your Shepard did not do everything in his/her power to stop the Reapers. They don't believe you're worthy. Chances are, if you are a player who only got the Destroy option, your Shepard simply turns into a husk. Why do the Reapers want to control a slackass Shepard? Simple. They don't.

And I have already explained to you why Shepard's indoctrination had to be different - because Shepard is different. And she did hallucinate. IT states that the child is a hallucination the entire time.

So they spend the entire game hunting for Shepard, find out that he has suceeded in building a device that can destroy them and, despite them retreating to Earth with the Citadel, he has arrived with a giant fleet and was mere feet away from reaching the Conduit beam and from there opening the Citadel.

And that after all this it isnt worth completing what they've apparently been trying to do for two games just because the fleet he gathered could have been bigger?

Not buying it.

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Because when they offer Destroy as the only choice, it means your Shepard did not do everything in his/her power to stop the Reapers. They don't believe you're worthy. Chances are, if you are a player who only got the Destroy option, your Shepard simply turns into a husk. Why do the Reapers want to control a slackass Shepard? Simple. They don't.

And I have already explained to you why Shepard's indoctrination had to be different - because Shepard is different. And she did hallucinate. IT states that the child is a hallucination the entire time.

So they spend the entire game hunting for Shepard, find out that he has suceeded in building a device that can destroy them and, despite them retreating to Earth with the Citadel, he has arrived with a giant fleet and was mere feet away from reaching the Conduit beam and from there opening the Citadel.

And that after all this it isnt worth completing what they've apparently been trying to do for two games just because the fleet he gathered could have been bigger?

Not buying it.

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

Ah, so instead of letting Shepard onto the Citadel and trapping him there with an army of everything knowing that he was coming, they shoot at him with a powerful laser in the middle of a warzone?

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I have to ask: What do you guys think about Shepard admitting he just feels survivors guilt over the kid dying instead of him? Or is that irrelevant and the dreams are purely indoctrination?

The Shep is around a million deaths a day, most players feel worse about Thessia then that boy who sneaks his way into your dreams.

The player isn't Shepard. Bioware intended that Shepard would feel distressed by this one child's death. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any real emotional impact for a lot of the players.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

[Drake-Shepard]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

You mean the stuff that was only present while TIM controlled you and dissappeared when TIM died?

They are probably meant to be indicitive of TIM's control over Shepard. 

And the ghostly image of the boy that we see with superstitious awe. There has never been a case of an indoctrinated person being able to control a non-indoctrinated person, I'm sure Saren would have tried.

Didn't you know. You get special powers when your indoctrinated.

Seriously Someone please explain to me why TIM can control shep and Anderson without saying bad writing. That cannot be an oversight. 

[CaliGuy033]

Hajilestone wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Except it's not real.

It's also unlikely to be implemented because now people can claim it was theirs. Then lawsuits happen.

Then they'll make a movie out of the lawsuit.

 
you can't claim you made up a story in someone else's game. That person would get sued, not Bioware.

Uhhh...what?  Yes you can.  Just like you can claim you wrote the music in somebody else's song, or the story in somebody else's movie.

[balance5050]

 

Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

 
Note the word 'ultimately'. By the time Shepard would be hearing voices in his mind, he would be fully indoctrinated. The changes form it are permanent, so if you believe that the voices in the dreams indicate this final stage then the idea that Shepard can later break free of it by choosing destroy must be wrong. 

 

Consider this: If "Ultimately" the reapers gain the ability use the victims body, how is Shepard being controlled so easily by TIM, remember the catalysts words, "He could never control us because we controlled him. SOO, using simple logic we can deduce that it was the reapers controlling shepard through TIM.

Modifié par balance5050, 11 avril 2012 - 03:57 .

[jijeebo]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

You mean the stuff that was only present while TIM controlled you and dissappeared when TIM died?

They are probably meant to be indicitive of TIM's control over Shepard. 

And the ghostly image of the boy that we see with superstitious awe. There has never been a case of an indoctrinated person being able to control a non-indoctrinated person, I'm sure Saren would have tried.

Didn't you know. You get special powers when your indoctrinated.

Seriously Someone please explain to me why TIM can control shep and Anderson without saying bad writing. That cannot be an oversight. 

He just... Can?

He does his experiments and shizz on Sanctuary, implants himself with the special tech or w/e and this amounts to him being able to control organics... They don't really explain it.

It's just... Art? *cough* bad writing *cough*

[rachellouise]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

You mean the stuff that was only present while TIM controlled you and dissappeared when TIM died?

They are probably meant to be indicitive of TIM's control over Shepard. 

And the ghostly image of the boy that we see with superstitious awe. There has never been a case of an indoctrinated person being able to control a non-indoctrinated person, I'm sure Saren would have tried.

Didn't you know. You get special powers when your indoctrinated.

Seriously Someone please explain to me why TIM can control shep and Anderson without saying bad writing. That cannot be an oversight. 

TIM has himself implanted, expained on cerberus base.

[GnusmasTHX]

jijeebo wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Well, and we see these symptoms during the end sequence... or was that a dream too?

You mean the stuff that was only present while TIM controlled you and dissappeared when TIM died?

They are probably meant to be indicitive of TIM's control over Shepard. 

And the ghostly image of the boy that we see with superstitious awe. There has never been a case of an indoctrinated person being able to control a non-indoctrinated person, I'm sure Saren would have tried.

Didn't you know. You get special powers when your indoctrinated.

Seriously Someone please explain to me why TIM can control shep and Anderson without saying bad writing. That cannot be an oversight. 

He just... Can?

He does his experiments and shizz on Sanctuary, implants himself with the special tech or w/e and this amounts to him being able to control organics... They don't really explain it.

It's just... Art? *cough* bad writing *cough*

Basically.

You all remember you're talking about a character who was half-husked. Not indoctrinated. HUSKED. There's obviously little science regarding Reaper-y stuff.

[ElSuperGecko]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

@GnusmasTHX

So the building blowing up moments after the vent boy enters is bad writing?
Then coincidently anderson doesn't notice him in the vent but shep does? followed by reaper sound and boy vanishing with batman skills.
Then on the shuttle....people are carrying injured soldiers...BW writers thought it important to show people interacting but they forgot about the Kid??!
Quite a few coincidences. Sometimes i wonder who is clutching at straws.

reference 
 
2 min 15

And don't forget the warning sign you see right next to Vent Boy's hidey-hole.  It's a very symbolic warning sign, if you ask me:   "Warning - it's in your head!"

Another interesting point to consider.  After every dream sequence, Shepard wakes up with a shocked, audible gasp of breath.  If you pick the "Destroy" option, and get yourself the little, bonus "Shepard Lives" scene... the body you see is lying completely still... until it takes a shocked, audible gasp of breath.

Nothing to it?  Just an ambiguity, a meaningless little detail?  Let me tell you a story about meaningless little details.  When they start to stack up, it's time to start thinking.  Once is bad luck.  Twice is coincidence.  Three times is enemy action.

And Bioware have put an awful lot of "meaningless little details" in this game, if you catch my drift.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 11 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

Note the word 'ultimately'. By the time Shepard would be hearing voices in his mind, he would be fully indoctrinated. The changes form it are permanent, so if you believe that the voices in the dreams indicate this final stage then the idea that Shepard can later break free of it by choosing destroy must be wrong. 

 

Consider this: If "Ultimately" the reapers gain the ability use the victims body, how is Shepard being controlled so easily by TIM, remember the catalysts words, "He could never control us because we controlled him. SOO, using simple logic we can deduce that it was the reapers controlling shepard through TIM.

That logic is flawed, as we don't know how much free will TIM retained. The Reapers controlled Saren, and yet he was able to act independantly. 

Also, if you actually believe that Shepard was being fully controlled by the Reapers at this point, then IT is still wrong - indoctrination is permanent, and the only way to escape it is, as shown by Benexia, Saren and TIM, death. Choosing destroy wouldn't allow Shepard to magically break free of it and go on to stop the Reapers. All three choices lead to failure, meaning the theory is wrong.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 11 avril 2012 - 04:01 .

[GnusmasTHX]

ElSuperGecko wrote...


Another interesting point to consider.  After every dream sequence, Shepard wakes up with a shocked, audible gasp of breath. 

[rachellouise]

And don't forget the warning sign you see right next to Vent Boy's hidey-hole.  It's a very symbolic warning sign, if you ask me:   "Warning - it's in your head!" 

It could also be a reference to Harry Potter. 

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Modifié par balance5050, 11 avril 2012 - 04:03 .

[Candidate 88766]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

And don't forget the warning sign you see right next to Vent Boy's hidey-hole.  It's a very symbolic warning sign, if you ask me:   "Warning - it's in your head!"

Another interesting point to consider.  After every dream sequence, Shepard wakes up with a shocked, audible gasp of breath.  If you pick the "Destroy" option, and get yourself the little, bonus "Shepard Lives" scene... the body you see is lying completely still... until it takes a shocked, audible gasp of breath.

Nothing to it?  Just an ambiguity, a meaningless little detail?  Let me tell you a story about meaningless little details.  When they start to stack up, it's time to start thinking.  Once is bad luck.  Twice is coincidence.  Three times is enemy action.

And Bioware have put an awful lot of "meaningless little details" in this game, if you catch my drift.

To use a phrase I normally loathe to see, you really are grapsing at straws.

When people wake up from bad dreams, they often breathe heavily.

I imagine that when people wake up after suffering highly traumtic experiences and after serious injuries, they breath heavily.

Claiming that Shepard's style of breathing is indicitive of anything other than his breathing should be enough to make you stop and think that maybe you're reading way too much into things.

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...


Another interesting point to consider.  After every dream sequence, Shepard wakes up with a shocked, audible gasp of breath. 

BAM!! I like that observation.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Its the same reason the Reaper on Tuchunka didn't kill you despite its laser hitting barely a foot to Shepard's left - its a game.

Plus, if Harbinger went to that much trouble to keep Shepard alive then why do the Reapers sometimes only offer you one choice - the choice that leads to Shepard magically shrugging of the effects of indoctrintion?

[Dark_Caduceus]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Except it's not real.

It's also unlikely to be implemented because now people can claim it was theirs. Then lawsuits happen.

Then they'll make a movie out of the lawsuit.

Something like that.