209 réponses à ce sujet

[Drake-Shepard]

omg how can a human being (normal, huskified, biotic, half reaper) turn into professor X and control 2 other humans. It makes absolutely to sense. What implants do this?
TIM was just trying to control the reapers...because something does control them. vendetta said so.
Even if you think shep is awake in the TIM confrontation .. there is something fishy going on. An implant intended to control reapers will not control normal humans.

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Surely if Harby needed Shep he wouldn't have almost killed him with a beam in the first place, and instead killed every one else and let Shep get to the beam unharmed and then worked his mojo.

Also... Harbinger leaves 5 other people alive: The two soldiers who die as you approach the beam, your squaddies who warp to the Normandy, and Anderson... Whats their greater purpose?

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Dat pinpoint accuracy. 'Cuz you know, he doesn't repeatedly miss Shepard and other Soldiers as well.

Probably why a bunch of ther people made it to the Conduit as well.

Fairly obvious the scene is meant to show that the beam cuts off right before it hits you, and the damage you take isn't from a direct hit. Seeing as how Harbinger is taking sweeps the whole time, this is likely.

[Drake-Shepard]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Except it's not real.

It's also unlikely to be implemented because now people can claim it was theirs. Then lawsuits happen.

Then they'll make a movie out of the lawsuit.

Something like that.

lol
 ACAVYOS  vs casey hudson

Colin moriaty as comic relief. 

[noobcannon]

PhotonMaze wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Indoc theory is based completely on the rushed, sloppy part of the ending.

Pointing out rushed and sloppy work as proof forgets that rushed and sloppy work lacks intent to create the situation. It's only coincidental and proves nothing else.

A lot of the minor peices of evidence for the IT seem a bit far fetched. However, you can't ignore stuff like Shepard's breath at the end and the cryptic way that the developers have been acting.

thankyou. i agree there are alot of things that are a stretch but there are some that carry alot of weight, shepard breathing under rubble, his dreams with oily shadows, anderson at the console way before you, the magic elevator out into space with spaceboy  blame bad writing if you want, but i think something like indoc theory is more likely, given how well the rest of the game was.

[jijeebo]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

omg how can a human being (normal, huskified, biotic, half reaper) turn into professor X and control 2 other humans. It makes absolutely to sense. What implants do this?
TIM was just trying to control the reapers...because something does control them. vendetta said so.
Even if you think shep is awake in the TIM confrontation .. there is something fishy going on. An implant intended to control reapers will not control normal humans.

I believe he started out controlling smaller things with his work on Sanctuary, then when it worked he asked Mirandas dad to adapt the technology to work on a reaper... But he got killed and stuff and TIM ran out of options and had to implant himself and hope for the best.

Unfortunately he became indoctrinated so could not possibly control them, regardless of whether or not the implants gave him the ability to.

Shep and Anderson, on the other hand...

[Drake-Shepard]

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Surely if Harby needed Shep he wouldn't have almost killed him with a beam in the first place, and instead killed every one else and let Shep get to the beam unharmed and then worked his mojo.

Also... Harbinger leaves 5 other people alive: The two soldiers who die as you approach the beam, your squaddies who warp to the Normandy, and Anderson... Whats their greater purpose?

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 11 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind. 

Note the word 'ultimately'. By the time Shepard would be hearing voices in his mind, he would be fully indoctrinated. The changes form it are permanent, so if you believe that the voices in the dreams indicate this final stage then the idea that Shepard can later break free of it by choosing destroy must be wrong. 

 

Consider this: If "Ultimately" the reapers gain the ability use the victims body, how is Shepard being controlled so easily by TIM, remember the catalysts words, "He could never control us because we controlled him. SOO, using simple logic we can deduce that it was the reapers controlling shepard through TIM.

That logic is flawed, as we don't know how much free will TIM retained. The Reapers controlled Saren, and yet he was able to act independantly. 

Also, if you actually believe that Shepard was being fully controlled by the Reapers at this point, then IT is still wrong - indoctrination is permanent, and the only way to escape it is, as shown by Benexia, Saren and TIM, death. Choosing destroy wouldn't allow Shepard to magically break free of it and go on to stop the Reapers. All three choices lead to failure, meaning the theory is wrong.

The point of that scene is to decide if you're going to wake up with the intent on using the crucible in a certain way, your LI or someone could break you from it to still get the good ending.. OOPS, said to much.

[jijeebo]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Surely if Harby needed Shep he wouldn't have almost killed him with a beam in the first place, and instead killed every one else and let Shep get to the beam unharmed and then worked his mojo.

Also... Harbinger leaves 5 other people alive: The two soldiers who die as you approach the beam, your squaddies who warp to the Normandy, and Anderson... Whats their greater purpose?

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

LOL oh yea.

... I should go.

[Candidate 88766]

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

So why leave Shepard alive at all if sometimes the only option they provide him is the one that allows him to 'break free'?

If, as you earlier said, they no longer think he's worthy of indoctrination at this point then why not kill him outright? Leaving him alive gives him the chance of reaching the Conduit.

[FatalX7.0]

OP is indoctrinated.

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EDI says that it's strange that the reapers seem to be holding back right before the run to the conduit.

She never says that.

What she says is that the Reapers have no reason to hold back, and so the chances of success are incredibly slim, not that they are actually holding back. 

You're right, they have no reason to hold back, so it just seems strange that Harbinger has pinpoint accuracy for every soldier on the field but can't/doesn't vaporize you even after you're knocked down, Harbinger isn't dumb, he would have destroyed your body if he wanted to, but he didn't, maybe the reapers really did need him for something like they were hinting at through out ME2

Dat pinpoint accuracy. 'Cuz you know, he doesn't repeatedly miss Shepard and other Soldiers as well.

Probably why a bunch of ther people made it to the Conduit as well.

Fairly obvious the scene is meant to show that the beam cuts off right before it hits you, and the damage you take isn't from a direct hit. Seeing as how Harbinger is taking sweeps the whole time, this is likely.

Can't tell how much of this is sarcasm.

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

The point of that scene is to decide if you're going to wake up with the intent on using the crucible in a certain way, your LI or someone could break you from it to still get the good ending.. OOPS, said to much.

But you can't 'break' from it in the manner the theory requires. The changes made by indoctrination are permanent (unless you have a Thorian lying around). Any control the Reapers have over Shepard can simply be exerted again, ensuring he never reaches the Citadel.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

So why leave Shepard alive at all if sometimes the only option they provide him is the one that allows him to 'break free'?

If, as you earlier said, they no longer think he's worthy of indoctrination at this point then why not kill him outright? Leaving him alive gives him the chance of reaching the Conduit.

Who else is going to dismantle the fleet from within?

[ElSuperGecko]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
To use a phrase I normally loathe to see, you really are grapsing at straws.  When people wake up from bad dreams, they often breathe heavily.  I imagine that when people wake up after suffering highly traumtic experiences and after serious injuries, they breath heavily.

Claiming that Shepard's style of breathing is indicitive of anything other than his breathing should be enough to make you stop and think that maybe you're reading way too much into things.

Ah, but it's not the sum totality of the argument, is it?  Taken on it's own, yes, it would be grasping at straws.  But I explictly said in my post that it's just another little detail to consider, and there are lots of little details in the game hinting towards a deeper meaning.  If someone says 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, you can't argue against them by saying 1 isn't 3.  They would look at you like you are an idiot.

Indoctrination Theory states that the ENTIRE END SEQUENCE of the game is a dream or hallucination.  Shepard experiences multiple dreams in the game and wakes up in the same manner, each time.  After choosing a certain ending and obtaining a certain level of war assets in the game, you get a post ending sequence where an unidentified N7-armoured soldier wakes up in a pile of rubble in EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER.

Coincidence, maybe.  But as I said, there's a LOT of coincidences in the game.

[Candidate 88766]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

OP is indoctrinated.

OP just wants to believe there is something more to the endings. I ignore some of what happened and use my imagination to fill in the blanks, so I won't begrudge the OP doing the same.

I just find it amusing that the people so quick to point out flaws in the actual endings are so willing to ignore those in their version of it.

[balance5050]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The point of that scene is to decide if you're going to wake up with the intent on using the crucible in a certain way, your LI or someone could break you from it to still get the good ending.. OOPS, said to much.

But you can't 'break' from it in the manner the theory requires. The changes made by indoctrination are permanent (unless you have a Thorian lying around). Any control the Reapers have over Shepard can simply be exerted again, ensuring he never reaches the Citadel.

But, that's the point, the sequence is the last "ATTEMPT", you only become indoctrinated if you, align your motives with the reapers.

[Drake-Shepard]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

So why leave Shepard alive at all if sometimes the only option they provide him is the one that allows him to 'break free'?

If, as you earlier said, they no longer think he's worthy of indoctrination at this point then why not kill him outright? Leaving him alive gives him the chance of reaching the Conduit.

first we don't know if harbinger knows his alive. how indoc work specifically. maybe harbinger is concentrating on him...or maybe its just his mere presence, and his slightly indoctrinating various people, shepard being most effected due to arrival and due to being in a physically and mentally weakened state.

EDI tells you the reapers are inviting world leaders inside to 'negotiate'. Because they want to indoctrinate them,....easier to harvest then. Killing is easy...but they really want to harvest. Getting a high figure indoctrinated is 1000% more useful then a dead one. Shepard is as famous as they get.

If IT theory is true also, the beam will probably not transport you to an unguarded room next to the control panel. So it can also solve that silly plothole.

Also, the destroy option will kill everything if your ems is too low. hence you lose hope.
If you salvage the collector base then control is your default option. renegade option from ME2= perceived paragon option from ME3

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 11 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[GnusmasTHX]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

So why leave Shepard alive at all if sometimes the only option they provide him is the one that allows him to 'break free'?

If, as you earlier said, they no longer think he's worthy of indoctrination at this point then why not kill him outright? Leaving him alive gives him the chance of reaching the Conduit.

Who else is going to dismantle the fleet from within?

You mean the fleet we see getting pulverized?

Or do you mean in IT, the fleet is actually winning, and Shepard uses the Crucible anyway...

[Candidate 88766]

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The point of that scene is to decide if you're going to wake up with the intent on using the crucible in a certain way, your LI or someone could break you from it to still get the good ending.. OOPS, said to much.

But you can't 'break' from it in the manner the theory requires. The changes made by indoctrination are permanent (unless you have a Thorian lying around). Any control the Reapers have over Shepard can simply be exerted again, ensuring he never reaches the Citadel.

But, that's the point, the sequence is the last "ATTEMPT", you only become indoctrinated if you, align your motives with the reapers.

Your motives have nothing to do with how easily you're indoctrinated. Saren was trying to save organics, and TIM was trying to control the Reapers. These motives go against the Reapers' own motives, and yet they become indoctrinated.

Indoctrination is signals and electromagnetic fields. An EM field doesn't become more effective if you agree with the motives of the thing generating the signals.

[GnusmasTHX]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The point of that scene is to decide if you're going to wake up with the intent on using the crucible in a certain way, your LI or someone could break you from it to still get the good ending.. OOPS, said to much.

But you can't 'break' from it in the manner the theory requires. The changes made by indoctrination are permanent (unless you have a Thorian lying around). Any control the Reapers have over Shepard can simply be exerted again, ensuring he never reaches the Citadel.

But, that's the point, the sequence is the last "ATTEMPT", you only become indoctrinated if you, align your motives with the reapers.

Your motives have nothing to do with how easily you're indoctrinated. Saren was trying to save organics, and TIM was trying to control the Reapers. These motives go against the Reapers' own motives, and yet they become indoctrinated.

Indoctrination is signals and electromagnetic fields. An EM field doesn't become more effective if you agree with the motives of the thing generating the signals.

Rana Thanoptis was just trying to cure the genophage. Had no more exposure, AFAIK, and still was a sleeper agent.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 11 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[Ponei]

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated!

[MetioricTest]

I don't like the indoctrination theory.

It's imaginative but the idea that "That whole sequence never happened and you're still on Earth while the Reapers kill everybody" is a lame ending, if an ending at all.

Just seems to be grasping at straws to replace a bad ending with a slightly less bad ending. At the end of the day it's still a bad ending, just pick which one has plot-holes that you care the least about.

[balance5050]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Drake-Shepard wrote...

ermmm.. the point of IT is that everyone else is dead. You see them after you get up and slowmo happens. 

So why leave Shepard alive at all if sometimes the only option they provide him is the one that allows him to 'break free'?

If, as you earlier said, they no longer think he's worthy of indoctrination at this point then why not kill him outright? Leaving him alive gives him the chance of reaching the Conduit.

Who else is going to dismantle the fleet from within?

You mean the fleet we see getting pulverized?

Or do you mean in IT, the fleet is actually winning, and Shepard uses the Crucible anyway...

Another big hint is how the Catalysts dialogue changes changes depending on how much EMS you have. If you have a low EMS he's kind of a ******, but if it's high it's more pandering to you to choose control or synthesis.

EXAMPLE,
Low EMS "What are you doing here?"
High EMS "Wake up."

[ticklefist]

They didn't deny the IT. They laughed.