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Meaningful Sacrifice, Or How I Learned to Love Clarification. How Close to This Is the EC?


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#1
lillitheris

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Edit: So, the EC is coming out. What are the chances that they implemented these themes as-is? Low? Astronomical? It’ll be interesting to see how close I was (or how much they were influenced by fan input)…



I'm ready to accept clarification rather than fixes. I think, though, that there are some common needs that it should meet in order to satisfy both those who liked the ending, and those who did not.

There's a short preamble here explaining my reasoning; the suggestions are a bit further down. If you have any suggestions for improvement, please leave a comment. This is not an unchangeable single-person manifesto!

Also, if you like these ideas or think they merit discussion, please add at least a “+1” or “I liked it!” comment…otherwise the post will slip down to the limbo in the turmoil that the FTL forums are, and won't be seen.

Permission is hereby granted to BioWare, free of charge, to do whatever they please with the ideas presented in this post. Attribution to ME fans on BSN would be nice, but not required.



Rationale and Background

Sacrifice should be meaningful. The hero dying just to kill off the hero is as much a cliché as happily ever after. Dead hero does not art make. That's one of the problems with the ending: psychologically speaking, the player has won when TIM falls, which makes the (apparent) death after victory seem…gratuitous. I'd use the word “insulting”, but that implies intent that wasn't present. It just comes across like that.

The second need is much more obvious: your loved ones, your comrades, and the galaxy. While there's something to be said for an “unknown future”, for many of us the glimpses we got were so disconnected from the present that they don't provide closure. The Normandy crash: I personally did not understand it (like so many others), and psychologically this means that it's not ‘real’. And if it's not real, how can I be sure that all those people were OK? Same with the galaxy's fate: we have so little unambiguous information that it's impossible to make any satisfying conclusions. Some soil is necessary for planting the seed for the players to grow their own future from.

There's also one note I'd like to make about the desire for ‘bittersweet’. If the near-complete decimation of Earth, with billions dead – not to mention the losses all the other species have suffered – isn't bitter enough, the problem isn't that you've not killed enough people. It's that you've failed to show that properly to the player. The forced emotion – RPG no-no – from the kid in the beginning doesn't work for many/most players. Obviously more personal losses are easier to evoke feelings with…but there're quite a few of those too. All this is to further reinforce the point that killing off Shepard or the LI (or even comrades) without proper justification is – and is seen as – the easy way out.

There's a lot more rationale and background in the comments. Optional, but definitely worth reading. I'll try to add links to interesting ones in the format [1, 2, …] in the relevant parts of the text.

So, with that, addressing the first:



Sacrifice

I don't necessarily mean that this exact template should be used – although obviously I like it – but I think it illustrates the needs that should be met.

Shepard has won when TIM dies. This means that the sacrifice thereafter must be the player's to choose, and for some justified reason. A tradeoff approach works fine. The two factors of balance are the futures of 1. Shepard, loved ones and friends (axis of life and death), and 2. the galaxy as a whole (axis of safety and uncertainty). From these, we can carve out 3 options – what a coincidence! Maybe this is what you were going for…?

  • Sacrifice yourself to grant everyone else a safe, even utopic future.
  • Sacrifice something essential to grant a longer respite, with a significant gain in power.
  • Save yourself at the expense of only gaining a breather, with an uncertain (if hopeful) future.

Each does defeat the main enemy.

How can we translate these into the existing ending? I think you can already see it…

  • Synthesis: Shepard dies so that the loved ones and the entire galaxy can live free from fear. Relay destruction TBDetermined, but even if destroyed, presumably combined with reaper knowledge, it'll be reasonably easy to get things running again.
  • Control: Shepard relinquishes material existence in a consciousness transfer or copy, becoming an AI (it does not seem sufficient to just create some subroutines to upload). Citadel situation needs to be resolved. Relay situation TBDetermined, but presumably they stay operational.
  • Destroy: Shepard hopes to live, and save his/her loved ones, and destroy the threat as was intended but the immediate future may be harder (war cleanup, vying for power, the salarian/krogan situation maybe escalating…), and the more distant future is uncertain – the synthetic war will yet come, if the krogans don't rebel first. But there's hope, and there's the now. Relays may be destroyed, or out of order (see below).

It must be noted that in order for these to be realistic options, the character must be given some reason to believe the Catalyst (it is the enemy, after all). Somehow Shepard needs to be able to believe that the given options are genuinely the things that the Crucible can do, and only those things. Here's a proposal I made downthread for a possibly workable option:

An Investigate option is added to ask why Shepard should believe the Catalyst. It replies that it's going to upload some schematic data to the fleet; a moment later, it lowers the communication shield (which has been preventing you from getting comms earlier), and among the cacophony of the fleet in battle, you hear Hackett/EDI/Dr. Lok/someone suitable try to hail: “Commander Shepard? Commander? We received schematics and analysis, are you transmitting this? They show that the Crucible plans were correct, but there's something preventing it from firing. You can release the destructive ray by disabling the thingamajic somewhere <nearby the place it is>, it looks like; EDI also says that there's some kind of a code repository there with Reaper command structure modifications that could be used if they could be beamed to the Reapers, but she can't get access to it. There's also some really weird schematics for nanotech that seem something like the ones in the husks but not quite. We're marking them in the schematics, view with your omnitool. Commander, we can only hold off for a few minutes before the Reapers get to the Crucible, what is going on?! What's the situ-” at which point the Catalyst closes the comms shield, just after Shepard gets an omnitool hologram pointing out the same locations as the Catalyst did.

Something like that. It both gives a reasonable clarity that the situation is as described, and gives additional impetus to make the decision. It also avoids the problems with a continuously open comm line, although the alternative might be to have Hackett speak longer before going up to the Catalyst. In this case, the ability to scan the Citadel parts would need to be explained, and it'd be likely that Shepard would only learn of the Destroy option – so (s)he might still not trust the Catalyst with the other options.

As a small note, because of the visceral hate of the child hologram the Catalyst uses, it might be good to offer an option for Shepard to say it's not working, and the Catalyst can shift to a glowing orb, with the speech dropped a couple octaves and made more mechanical. [ 1 ]

Anyway, with that solved somehow, let's flesh out our options and their aftermath a bit more.


Fleshing out Ending Options

For all options, EMS will affect how many squadmates and other important characters survive the battle. Other effects detailed for each option.

Synthesis

Synthesis pretty much needs the “Normandy crash as hallucination” scene to be plausible (details further down). Synthesis cannot be an immediate transformation, and it can't create an actual ‘new DNA’. I get that maybe there’s a philosophical statement there, but that doesn’t excuse it from plausibility. Both details are preposterously implausible, and will be torn to shreds.

The simplest plausible explanation is to just explain the Catalyst’s statement about a new DNA as a metaphor for the dumb human, and make the actual synthesis be nanotech-based for organics, programmatic or maybe even nanotech for synthetics. The timeframe is days and weeks, not seconds.

Synthesis also has the property of causing significant emotional distress (suicides, civil unrest…). These are the milder the more gradual the transformation is. On the upside, it provides almost utopic conditions for some time to come, when/if unrest settles. [Placeholder, will try to add more info. Synthesis is very hard to define reasonably. Comments have some discussion].


Control

There should probably be an indication that ShepardAI is able to communicate with or manifest to people by some means. Whether (s)he does can be left open, although maybe it would be good to show that it does happen. Whether ShepardAI is the real thing or just a carbon copy or worse could be left for EMS. How Shepard handles the reapers – send them all into a sun, retreat somewhere to guard the galaxy, … – can be left open, but I think there's a strong implication that (s)he must retain active control to keep them in check, and that the Reapers probably wouldn't allow themselves to be harmed. To set the stage for Stargazer, ShepardAI should slowly fade away from day-to-day activities, either because everyone (s)he knew has since died, or for some other mysterious reason. This detachment explains the mythical nature of “The Shepherd” (unless you want to go all the way and just make Shepherd a reaper craft to preserve all the dead people…) Also, don't forget about the Citadel. It probably shouldn't just ride off to the sunset as it seems to be doing in the original cinematic, at least before the people still alive on board can disembark. [ 1, 2 ]


Destroy

Could definitely benefit from EMS considerations, balancing out the ‘penalty’. The better the crucible is (high EMS), the better the chances that it works in an optimal manner. Note that I'm using the rumoured “relays not destroyed” plan here for mid- and high EMS. Adjust accordingly if the relays should be destroyed rather than disabled – I personally don't find it necessary. (Similarly, I don't think much of “relays are destroyed but we can use reaper tech to just recreate them right away” as a dramatic device, but it's a valid approach.)

  • Low EMS signal is unmodulated and too powerful: it indiscriminately destroys anything resembling the reaper ‘lifeforms’ by targeting reaper software signatures, including the geth if Reaper code was uploaded, EDI(?), the suits of quarians who had geth tech (causing not death, but suit failure, which can be problematic), and the destruction is violent (the reapers can explode etc. due to improper shutdown). It would also significantly – perhaps unrecoverably – damage the relay network. It can be bad enough to kill Shepard – although the Catalyst would probably warn about this in strong terms.
  • Medium EMS signal is better-modulated, and while causing the Charon relay to shut down, the farther relays would fare better. Would still do damage to all reaper code-affected persons and things, possibly killing geth if reaper code was uploaded. Shepard lives. Perhaps at close range the pulse is enough to damage Shepard's cyborg parts enough that they can't be rebuilt to 100%, even if it doesn't affect all synthetics.
  • High EMS signal is extremely well modulated. The Charon relay is shut down by the energy spike, but the rest of the network is largely unaffected, including the Citadel. Science teams could estimate it'll take <12 months to reactivate Charon (the scientists working on Crucible traveled with the fleet and survived in sufficient numbers if you were good enough). The geth are mostly fine…and if desired for balance, the signal could have been so cautious that so are some of the farthest, scattered reapers who hadn't made it to Sol (cleaning them up is quite doable, but they will cause some destruction before going down). Shepard lives. Loses a leg/arm, taking him/her out of active duty? Or perhaps at close range the pulse is enough to damage Shepard's cyborg parts enough that they can't be rebuilt to 100%, even if it doesn't affect all synthetics.

Not too unbalanced, is it? In all cases, Sol is stranded for some time with all the fleets, and it's some distance to the nearest relay via FTL. There's a ton of rebuilding done, tons of wounded, dead, shortage of food, morale after initial cheers, krogan/salarian, everyone/geth…

Even if the relays aren't destroyed, Charon is reactivateable only in the highest EMS and in the others, everyone would have to FTL out of the system instead (let's call it a trip of 6-12 months to get to the nearest relay). There are a few of the quantum comms outside Sol, so that the survivors outside Sol could confirm that the other relays are in fact functional (or not, as applicable), and thus prevent the fleets from falling into despair – it'd be a daunting prospect to spend all that time to find out if the other relays still work – even though it still takes time to get out of or into Sol.

If the option is taken that even with a high EMS the relays or significant portion of them have been completely destroyed – I feel this is not necessary – then the Normandy must be reachable from Sol (see below for suggestions).

The Citadel should be, dependent on EMS, either completely busted or at best significantly damaged, e.g. with one ward completely detached and the others damaged, the tower mayhaps afloat by itself (explaining why Shepard didn't get blown up?)

There should also be that option to fail that was promised. No, not CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE. If you fail at the end – any time on Earth, even? – you should get a cinematic showing the destruction of the various planets (including yahg!), and the Reapers retreating after fixing up the Citadel and so on. With low EMS, we'd also see the Reapers find Liara's time capsules. Then, cut to 50 000 years later, and again depending on EMS, some different cinematics. Low EMS shows reapers taking everyone by surprise, whereas mid- and high EMS show some aliens finding Liara's time capsules. Maybe they could be playing it in the Citadel, with some people speaking in a funny language explaining the meaning of the thing while the Reaper hologram, Shepard, and so on flicker in the air. With high EMS, we should also see the reaper forces significantly depleted.

This brings us to the second item:



Closure

I think it's mostly obvious how the closure should play out otherwise: show more of the fleets you assembled (rachni, geth, etc.) both in space and on the ground, show their final moments in the fight, show the deaths or survivals of your current and former squadmates (use EMS), plus Hackett, Anderson, Kahlee, and so on. Where Shepard dies, show how (s)he is honoured, if an AI, show making contact. If surviving…well, more on that below. Show more about the future of the survivors – especially any blue and/or scaly babies (Liara and Shepard spoke of having kids, and Garrus and Shepard of adoption, Shepard and Traynor did, Wrex will have some). Show the rebuild efforts on Earth and the other worlds.

Some of the cinematics, like the various fleets fighting and your squadmates' fates, can be interspersed into the final sections in London – or even the Citadel – without impacting the flow.

I have a couple more specific ideas that I think might be worth exploring. First and foremost, the Normandy. It's absolutely imperative that if Shepard survives, the Normandy is reachable.

The Normandy seems the biggest problem for most people. I think it should be scrapped as a real event because it will take such huge effort to explain the crew, and how they got to a planet that would take at LEAST 6 hours to get to – time that just can't be accounted for. (Although I do have a suggestion for a real crash below). The hidden payoff here is that you can also rewrite the frankly ludicrous instant DNA rewrite from Synthesis and change it to something sensible (or even something that is not fully explained, we just see glimpses of some nanotech starting or whatever). There's two ways this could work:

  • The Normandy's crash is actually a dream/hallucination/final thoughts
    • Joker's: before death or unconsciousness, having gotten too close to the Crucible in an effort to get Shepard out and trying, in desperation, to get into FTL to escape the explosion. Joker gets knocked out (or dies :/), and dreams that the explosion shipwrecked them on a planet and everyone is OK, even those who weren't actually on board. In the case of Synthesis, despite being knocked out, Joker's body is aware of the transformation and fills in the blanks with composite imagery from the indoctrinated hybrids and so on. This sidesteps the question of how he ‘knew’ about Synthesis and also removes the necessity for a green glow.
    • Shepard's dream in unconsciousness or final thought before death/transformation. So worried about their fate that (s)he dreams them surviving, fleeing what from inside the citadel seems like a giant inferno of destruction. The actual fate of the squad TBDetermined. This ties in nicely because the world they land on looks like it could easily be a composite of the various worlds Shepard's been to, but overall using Joker as the dreamer is the much better option.
  • (If the Normandy crash must be a real event, you'll need to explain satisfactorily how the team got on board, and why they're in good health. It MUST be explained how they had time to get to the place where that planet is. This is really important: if it's an FTL ride, the planet is at least 10 LY away from Earth (refer to your cosmological charts for nearest terrestrial worlds) which means at least 10-12 HOURS of travel. Conversely, if it's the result of a mass relay jump: it takes SEVERAL HOURS (5, I think?) to get to Charon from Earth. That time must be accounted for – and it's really hard to explain away hours because of the whole explosion thing. It's also absolutely imperative that the Normandy crew be rescued eventually, preferrably by the tireless efforts of Shepard – or alternately if the Sol relay is destroyed, someone else could rescue the Normandy, and they then head to help Sol.) On what I think is a highly implausible note, it must be said that the escape could be explained by 1. the Normandy making an FTL jump from Earth to Charon inside the solar system (very dangerous), 2. starting a relay jump where the relay gets disrupted somehow in the middle of the sequence (timeframe is minuscule), and 3. this interrupted jump depositing the Normandy safely on a habitable planet (incredibly unlikely). All in all, I give it odds on the order of 1:10^20, and the fans will absolutely destroy it, but you can use it.

Then there's the Stargazer. I think that in the Synthesis and Control endings, it could be a ‘real’ event.

  • Synthesis: “The Shepherd”, the genetic progenitor, could be a quasi-religious mythical character, prominent in their teachings. (Should be left as the last scene, after the other closure stuff.)
  • Control: Shepard is an actual Shepherd – kind of like Sovereign. An entity that guards the flock that is the galaxy. Has become less and less involved in affairs – without forgetting the core function – as time goes by, after everyone we know is gone. (Should be left as last scene.)

In Destruction, though, there's a twist if Shepard lives: think this sequence of events - happening before the other closure scenes:

  • Stargazer does the first part of the speech.
  • Camera cuts to a hospital room, with an unconscious Shepard peacefully in bed. One of Shepard's squadmates (or maybe Hannah Shepard if a Spacer, facing away from the camera) is sitting next to the bed, talking about how everyone's going to be talking about Shepard for centuries to come…but to please come back now anyway, there's still adventures to be had.
  • Cut to Stargazer and kid doing the second part of the scene.
  • Cut to hospital room. LI in room, looking out the window. Monitor alerts, LI turns around. Shepard opens eyes.

…And then segue into the rest of the closure scenes, rebuilding society and so on. It's very important that we also see rebuilding of Thessia, Palaven, Tuchanka, the settling of Rannoch….

To be honest, I'd love to see the equivalent of blue babies, too, or real estate construction on a cliffside on Rannoch but… well. Let's just leave it at that. I, and a lot of others, would very much like to see that. Note that the only LIs to broach kids that I can think of are Liara (blue) and Garrus (orphans), so that part only applies to them.

Does anyone have more specific scenes that they'd like to see for the other characters?


TL;DR: Mass Effect deserves better, but it can't be explained any shorter than this. So go back and read it! :P:wub:

Modifié par lillitheris, 23 juin 2012 - 03:53 .


#2
crimzontearz

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as long as shepard's death is not forced down my throat and there is a reunion I am 100% ok with this just as I was with the DAO ending

#3
Kilshrek

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Or, perhaps sacrifice and martyrdom aren't always the only ways to solve a problem?

While you're alive you can still fight, try to do the best you can. Once you're dead, you're dead. You, personally don't live to see the fruits of your labour, which is no bad thing, assuming those events play out exactly as they should. But you won't know this, because you're too busy being dead. And here the player is separated from their character, to the detriment of the experience, for me at least.

None of those options should have any form of guarantee that the future is secure, or that there is even any hope. Hope only exists for as long as you're alive, and if you're dead, then hope dies with you, doesn't it?

#4
sp0ck 06

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Uh...this is exactly what they should do. Really well thought out and totally feasible. I really REALLY like your analysis of the three endings, and it clarifies why synthesis is the "hardest" ending to get and destroy is the "easiest."

BioWare listen to this one please!

#5
lillitheris

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Kilshrek wrote...

Or, perhaps sacrifice and martyrdom aren't always the only ways to solve a problem?

While you're alive you can still fight, try to do the best you can. Once you're dead, you're dead. You, personally don't live to see the fruits of your labour, which is no bad thing, assuming those events play out exactly as they should. But you won't know this, because you're too busy being dead. And here the player is separated from their character, to the detriment of the experience, for me at least.


I agree. I'm trying to work within (most) of the context of the current ending, so that constrains our options a little.

None of those options should have any form of guarantee that the future is secure, or that there is even any hope. Hope only exists for as long as you're alive, and if you're dead, then hope dies with you, doesn't it?


Well, nothing ever has guarantees, does it? I didn't mean to imply it any further than the moment of making the decision – the premise is that somehow the Catalyst convinces Shepard that these are real, valid options (maybe some kind of a prothean-style data dump cutscene?) so Shepard's decision of sacrifice would be based on that information.

I feel that the three options I presented give a reasonably broad set of options, but I'd love to hear some alternatives (or counterarguments).

#6
lillitheris

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

Uh...this is exactly what they should do. Really well thought out and totally feasible. I really REALLY like your analysis of the three endings, and it clarifies why synthesis is the "hardest" ending to get and destroy is the "easiest."

BioWare listen to this one please!


Thank you kindly! Hopefully others – and BioWare – will feel the same, and turn out for support.

#7
Kilshrek

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lillitheris wrote...
I agree. I'm trying to work within (most) of the context of the current ending, so that constrains our options a little.


Unfortunately it does. But I think that these options mostly feel the same is where it rubs me the wrong way. It all seems to scream to me, you must kill yourself, so that others may possibly live. It could just be me, and that I am dead against all this big sacrifice business.

lillitheris wrote...
Well, nothing ever has guarantees, does it? I didn't mean to imply it any further than the moment of making the decision – the premise is that somehow the Catalyst convinces Shepard that these are real, valid options (maybe some kind of a prothean-style data dump cutscene?) so Shepard's decision of sacrifice would be based on that information.

I feel that the three options I presented give a reasonably broad set of options, but I'd love to hear some alternatives (or counterarguments).

Yeah, but at the same time, as I was saying earlier, while Shepard is alive, things can be influenced. Perhaps they still lose, perhaps they can win, but Shepard merely going on the say so of the Catalyst, because the Catalyst claims to be such and such, strikes me as.. painfully weak.

But moving back to your options, I had argued in another thread that Synthesis and Control are very dangerous options to take.

I had this written up in another thread, and I'll just post it here, if you don't mind.

My concern is that in Control, Shepard's mind is that of a mortal. We have no comprehension of what lies beyond, and we do not know how long we can exist, solely as... us, without a corporeal body. Our consciousness is very much attached to our body, and without it, do we even know what happens?

Are we still mortal? Do we still perceive things the same? Is Shepard, still Shepard? Will that same Shepard, the one who fought so hard to defend the galaxy, be the same one after controlling the Reapers? Will that Shepard
think like a Reaper instead?

Control has so many unknowns, it, to me, was the most ridiculous of all choices. Followed very closely by
Synthesis, because, really, making everything in the galaxy uniform, after we just made a great big show about diversity? Only Destroy offered me any real sense of security, and that was going on the word of a little snot I
barely knew, and had no reason to trust.


It sums up my opinions and feelings on the other two, and why Destroy is the most logical, and least dangerous for the long run option. Of course, that's not really saying much.

Also, as far as the EMS comes into affecting the Crucibles effect, I think the high EMS option is good, but perhaps not what Bioware are going for. I think they're dead set on relay destruction, they want to wipe the slate clean. In this case, perhaps the relays are shut down forever, and the Citadel itself loses most of its.. power/function? Except for the life support and other critical functions, the Citadel is essentially a husk, but those still on board need not die, and can evacuate with the aid of Sword.

For the other two options. I can't really offer an opinion because I'm gunning for a good outcome, after all of this. Sorry.

Edit : Call it the Reaper EMP, and have it specifically target Reaper hardware, in a manner of speaking. Since Reapers essentially live in their ships, or are their ships, with the disabling of the hardware of their ships, the Reapers themselves cease to be, but this spills on to all Reaper hardware out there, including some of Shepard. So Citadel and relays get knocked out, but not destroyed, incuding some parts of Shepard. EMS score determines whether or not rescue can get to Shepard soon enough, with high being a reasonably intact fleet, with Normandy at the head of the rescue operation. Or something.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 11 avril 2012 - 04:24 .


#8
lillitheris

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Kilshrek wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I agree. I'm trying to work within (most) of the context of the current ending, so that constrains our options a little.


Unfortunately it does. But I think that these options mostly feel the same is where it rubs me the wrong way. It all seems to scream to me, you must kill yourself, so that others may possibly live. It could just be me, and that I am dead against all this big sacrifice business.


I agree with that, mostly. I think that even given my options, there should still be a fourth – to decline all of them. I'm not quite sure what would happen at that point (unless you ended up shooting at it anyway)*. Especially since we're unlikely to get any other ‘option’  for conventional warfare or sumptin' at that point. I'll certainly also try to influence them to do more of a fix than a clarification…but to be honest, I think the option for a happy ending is balm enough for most of our wounds, and BioWare knows that. And it's a functionally new ending :)

However, I have to argue my Destroy option! I think that it's a good balance between preservation, fulfilling the mission, and not getting completely boned in the process ;)

* Realistically any military command worth its salt would probably have just blown up Charon at the point where nearly all Reapers moved to Sol, saving the fleet to fight another day.

[…] but Shepard merely going on the say so of the Catalyst, because the Catalyst claims to be such and such, strikes me as.. painfully weak.


I agree, that does need to be explained somehow. I think a magic head data dump would be apropos given the game's history with it: the Catalyst could show enough of the history it's recorded and whatnot to convince Shepard that it believes itself to be speaking the truth about at least the effects that the Crucible can create. Then, if Shepard decided that the whole idea of the cycle was wrong, Destroy would be the way to go. Otherwise Shep would be free to decide which way is best.

My concern is that in Control, Shepard's mind is that of a mortal. We have no comprehension of what lies beyond, and we do not know how long we can exist, solely as... us, without a corporeal body. Our consciousness is very much attached to our body, and without it, do we even know what happens?


If we're talking realism, I'm extremely unconvinced that anything like consciousness transfer actually works (it'd be a copy that thought it was you, but your own consciousness had already been snuffed)  – but I think it's the only way to really sell the option.

So, going back to the premise that somehow the Catalyst convinces Shepard that it actually works, and they can do some kind of a quantum wavefunction transfer (as if your consciousness ‘jumped’ out of your brain), then we could go with that.

Followed very closely by Synthesis, because, really, making everything in the galaxy uniform, after we just made a great big show about diversity? Only Destroy offered me any real sense of security, and that was going on the word of a little snot I
barely knew, and had no reason to trust.


I don't really think much of Synthesis, conceptually, but for better or worse it's what we get… if we went with the Normandy-crash-is-dying-thoughts-or-blacking-out idea, then at least we could remove the instant transformation that the Normandy video shows, and show a slightly more realistic transformation…

I think it's definitely good to keep pushing for a more extensive change, but I'm unconvinced it'll be included…so I think having this plan B (or A and a half) to define our needs is necessary.

I appreciate your thoughts – they're quite close to mine, fundamentally. This post doesn't really describe what I'd like to see in my wildest dreams :)

Modifié par lillitheris, 11 avril 2012 - 04:39 .


#9
TheMerchantMan

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Acceptable. Barely acceptable mind you, but yes. Acceptable. No disrespect to your writing, it's a fine clarification, but the ending is already so bad it should be changed outright or at least more options added.

The clarification needs to be at least this, but I still hold out hope for more.

#10
lillitheris

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TheMerchantMan wrote...

Acceptable. Barely acceptable mind you, but yes. Acceptable. No disrespect to your writing, it's a fine clarification, but the ending is already so bad it should be changed outright or at least more options added. 


None taken. I understand the source material, if you will, is not optimal. The actual big ending fixes have…many…threads, so I figured if we can come up with reasonable/acceptable clarification options, too, it'd be a win.



Kilshrek, I'll respond to the rest of your post in a bit, haven't overlooked it.

#11
Kilshrek

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lillitheris wrote...

I agree with that, mostly. I think that even given my options, there should still be a fourth – to decline all of them. I'm not quite sure what would happen at that point (unless you ended up shooting at it anyway)*. Especially since we're unlikely to get any other ‘option’  for conventional warfare or sumptin' at that point. I'll certainly also try to influence them to do more of a fix than a clarification…but to be honest, I think the option for a happy ending is balm enough for most of our wounds, and BioWare knows that. And it's a functionally new ending :)

However, I have to argue my Destroy option! I think that it's a good balance between preservation, fulfilling the mission, and not getting completely boned in the process ;)

* Realistically any military command worth its salt would probably have just blown up Charon at the point where nearly all Reapers moved to Sol, saving the fleet to fight another day.


You can't blow up the Charon relay conventionally, because Arrival says it's a very bad idea to do so. And then it just means the Reapers can really take their time with everyone else, because unlike everyone else, they don't seem to need fuel or supplies. Cutting off Charon would be condeming the entire population of Earth to the untender mercies of the Reapers.

And according to Hackett's desciption of the fighting, the Reapers just blitzed through, leaving some to keep the fleets busy. Besides, at the point most of the Reapers had buggered off to Sol, the Citadel was also under their control. It was the end game sequence, even if it was a very contrived sequence of events.

I agree that there should be an option for a happy ending, one that could be made to fit logically within the ending (or they could make it just as vague as the ending is now, I don't know). I've become very leery of the term clarification, because it just seems to me that I was too dense to grasp the high concept of the ending, so little pieces here and there will be focused on and extended for the benefit of my small mind.

As I said in my earlier post, Destroy really does seem to be my optimal choice, even if it means the genocide of anything synthetic. That I must sacrifice the Geth to achieve this aim, and possibly EDI as well, it goes against what Shepard has been trying to do all along. Saving lives was what Shepard stood for, not killing a race wholesale so everyone else can live in peace.

lillitheris wrote...
I agree, that does need to be explained somehow. I think a magic head data dump would be apropos given the game's history with it: the Catalyst could show enough of the history it's recorded and whatnot to convince Shepard that it believes itself to be speaking the truth about at least the effects that the Crucible can create. Then, if Shepard decided that the whole idea of the cycle was wrong, Destroy would be the way to go. Otherwise Shep would be free to decide which way is best.


I think Bioware are trying very hard to move away from exposition like that these days. However, I will say again that we have no reason to trust the Catalyst. Any info dump done by it, would seem as an attempt by the Catalyst to influence Shepard in some way.

lillitheris wrote...
If we're talking realism, I'm extremely unconvinced that anything like consciousness transfer actually works (it'd be a copy that thought it was you, but your own consciousness had already been snuffed)  – but I think it's the only way to really sell the option.

So, going back to the premise that somehow the Catalyst convinces Shepard that it actually works, and they can do some kind of a quantum wavefunction transfer (as if your consciousness ‘jumped’ out of your brain), then we could go with that.


Well, now that you play the quantum card.. I wasn't exactly going for direct realism, after all Project Lazarus will have us believe that a well preserved brain retains what made a human, human. My point was that there are so many unknowns associated with every other option, it's impossible to make a reasonable decision on such little data. I also maintain that we have no way of knowing what makes us, us, and if we remain ourselves if we leave our corporeal body. Add that to the uncertainty of having a mortal mind comprehend infinity, it's a risk that shouldn't be taken. This is a little meta-gamey of course, but a moment of pause for Shepard and those same conclusions could potentially be made.

lillitheris wrote...
I don't really think much of Synthesis, conceptually, but for better or worse it's what we get… if we went with the Normandy-crash-is-dying-thoughts-or-blacking-out idea, then at least we could remove the instant transformation that the Normandy video shows, and show a slightly more realistic transformation…

I think it's definitely good to keep pushing for a more extensive change, but I'm unconvinced it'll be included…so I think having this plan B (or A and a half) to define our needs is necessary.

I appreciate your thoughts – they're quite close to mine, fundamentally. This post doesn't really describe what I'd like to see in my wildest dreams :)


The trouble is that the Normandy crashes at all. Shepard's dying state dream is all okay, but why that particular world? The Normandy crash scene has far too many unknowns again, and I'd just ditch it altogether if I could. A more reasonable scene, if one must be put in for the sake of having some sort of weak aftermath scene, surely it should be on Earth, directly after the Crucible fires.

I'm just throwing my thoughts out there really, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse on the issue, but because I'm frustrated with it I'll turn the horse into mince before I'm satisfied. I don't mean with your ideas or feedback, but with Bioware's reticence on the whole ending issue.

#12
lillitheris

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Kilshrek wrote...

You can't blow up the Charon relay conventionally, because Arrival says it's a very bad idea to do so. And then it just means the Reapers can really take their time with everyone else, because unlike everyone else, they don't seem to need fuel or supplies. Cutting off Charon would be condeming the entire population of Earth to the untender mercies of the Reapers.


No, I mean exactly to use the Bad Idea. Blow it up, sacrifice the entire system, probably wipe out most of the Reapers in the process.

I agree that there should be an option for a happy ending, one that could be made to fit logically within the ending (or they could make it just as vague as the ending is now, I don't know). I've become very leery of the term clarification, because it just seems to me that I was too dense to grasp the high concept of the ending, so little pieces here and there will be focused on and extended for the benefit of my small mind.


Agreed. I've rationalized it to myself that they in fact are aware of all the problems and will try to address some of them while sticking to the ‘clarification’ nomenclature to avoid problems with investors and so on. I don't want to get deep into this in this thread, though :)

As I said in my earlier post, Destroy really does seem to be my optimal choice, even if it means the genocide of anything synthetic. That I must sacrifice the Geth to achieve this aim, and possibly EDI as well, it goes against what Shepard has been trying to do all along. Saving lives was what Shepard stood for, not killing a race wholesale so everyone else can live in peace.


Yes. I think the EMS should play a factor here…but like Garrus says, sometimes it's about the horrible calculus. Geth vs. everyone isn't much of a choice, in the end (any single race vs. everyone, for that matter), if your goal is to save the galaxy.


The trouble is that the Normandy crashes at all. Shepard's dying state dream is all okay, but why that particular world? The Normandy crash scene has far too many unknowns again, and I'd just ditch it altogether if I could. A more reasonable scene, if one must be put in for the sake of having some sort of weak aftermath scene, surely it should be on Earth, directly after the Crucible fires.


Yes. I actually quite liked my ideas (:whistle:) on the Normandy being essentially a dream sequence, as well as the Stargazer as an echo of what's going on around Shep's hospital bed…

The problem is that I think those are both going to stay no matter what happens, so explaining them away thus would be the best.

For the dream/last thoughts explanation Shepard (or Joker) would just be imagining some happy, pristine world untouched by conflict where they could be safe. The scenery, incidentally, bears close resemblance to Aite, where Shepard's been…so it's not necessarily fantastical, just drawing on memories.


I'll have to respond to the rest in a few hours, they require more time than I have right now :)

Modifié par lillitheris, 11 avril 2012 - 05:38 .


#13
Kilshrek

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lillitheris wrote...

No, I mean exactly to use the Bad Idea. Blow it up, sacrifice the entire system, probably wipe out most of the Reapers in the process.


Thereby nullifying the entire marketing campaign for the game? :D


lillitheris wrote...

Agreed. I've rationalized it to myself that they in fact are aware of all the problems and will try to address some of them while sticking to the ‘clarification’ nomenclature to avoid problems with investors and so on. I don't want to get deep into this in this thread, though :)


Heh, cynical me just says it gives them plenty of wriggle room, with that wording.

lillitheris wrote...
Yes. I think the EMS should play a factor here…but like Garrus says, sometimes it's about the horrible calculus. Geth vs. everyone isn't much of a choice, in the end (any single race vs. everyone, for that matter), if your goal is to save the galaxy.


Yeah, only Shepard is looking to save the galaxy, not sacrifice an entire race, especiallly without having the decency to at least tell them. Poor bastards, they were just hopping around in joy in Quarian suits.

lillitheris wrote...
Yes. I actually quite liked my ideas (:whistle:) on the Normandy being essentially a dream sequence, as well as the Stargazer as an echo of what's going on around Shep's hospital bed…

The problem is that I think those are both going to stay no matter what happens, so explaining them away thus would be the best.

For the dream/last thoughts explanation Shepard (or Joker) would just be imagining some happy, pristine world untouched by conflict where they could be safe. The scenery, incidentally, bears close resemblance to Aite, where Shepard's been…so it's not necessarily fantastical, just drawing on memories.


I'll have to respond to the rest in a few hours, they require more time than I have right now :)


I wasn't trying to say your ideas were bad or anything.

Joker and Shepard having.. visions as they die are perfectly acceptable, it's just the whole New Eden thing I guess. Call it me being set in my cynical ways. But Stargazer would be an expensive way to troll the fans, especially as just another dream. I think they're keeping Stargazer as a piece of the story, and going Shepard's tale was such and such. To the chagrin of some players, because it's basically telling them that Shepard was a story Stargazer was telling his grandkid. Not us, being Shepard, but us being Shepard, the story.

But take your time, this isn't exactly a timed event or anything.

#14
lillitheris

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Kilshrek wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

No, I mean exactly to use the Bad Idea. Blow it up, sacrifice the entire system, probably wipe out most of the Reapers in the process.


Thereby nullifying the entire marketing campaign for the game? :D


Well, yes, but that's the only other way to win. Not that they'd add it…or probably any other alternatives.

lillitheris wrote...
Yes. I think the EMS should play a factor here…but like Garrus says, sometimes it's about the horrible calculus. Geth vs. everyone isn't much of a choice, in the end (any single race vs. everyone, for that matter), if your goal is to save the galaxy.


Yeah, only Shepard is looking to save the galaxy, not sacrifice an entire race, especiallly without having the decency to at least tell them. Poor bastards, they were just hopping around in joy in Quarian suits.


True. But if that's the only alternative… plus, I think the EMS balancing would help. If you can't get your ducks in a row before committing, have to live with the consequences. I think the geth destruction is a semi-realistic result given incorporation of reaper code.


But Stargazer would be an expensive way to troll the fans, especially as just another dream. I think they're keeping Stargazer as a piece of the story, and going Shepard's tale was such and such. To the chagrin of some players, because it's basically telling them that Shepard was a story Stargazer was telling his grandkid. Not us, being Shepard, but us being Shepard, the story.


It's quite possible. If they keep the Normandy as a real event, I think there'll be a lot of unhappiness (it's hard to explain reasonably). The Stargazer, you might be right. But it'd make a nice – and respectful – twist (like the breath at the end originally was), without having to remove the segment.

I don't think Stargazer implies it's a story, though, in the sense of a fictional thing. It seems distinctly that they were implying Shepard had become a mythical saviour figure, and the exact details had gotten lost in time. I was actually quite dismayed by the Stargazer scene, along with many others. It felt kind of disrespectful – although I know it wasn't intended as such – and I suppose it might be because we weren't able to build the bridge from our time to whenever the Stargazer's supposed to exist.

#15
lillitheris

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Kilshrek wrote...

Well, now that you play the quantum card.. I wasn't exactly going for direct realism, after all Project Lazarus will have us believe that a well preserved brain retains what made a human, human. My point was that there are so many unknowns associated with every other option, it's impossible to make a reasonable decision on such little data. I also maintain that we have no way of knowing what makes us, us, and if we remain ourselves if we leave our corporeal body. Add that to the uncertainty of having a mortal mind comprehend infinity, it's a risk that shouldn't be taken. This is a little meta-gamey of course, but a moment of pause for Shepard and those same conclusions could potentially be made.


I think that for all the options, there needs to be some kind of show of convincing Shepard.

That said, though, you can't go too meta about it. We'd have to accept it as a premise of the game that it'd be possible, just like that you're still in fact the same person after a relay jump (or alternately of course that the Catalyst indicates it is in fact just a copy of you or your attributes, but I'm not sure that would be a very popular option).

Hypothetically and materialistically speaking, it's perfectly logical that – given the technology to emulate the brain structure on the receiving end – the wavefunction in fact is transferable.

#16
lillitheris

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Or, well, actually…I think it would be unpopular to essentially die in Control, just leaving a remnant/copy, but I'm not certain. Thoughts, anyone?

#17
lillitheris

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Added some clarifying language on the med/high-EMS Destroy and about the ‘obvious’ clarifications that I didn't spell out originally.

#18
Thracecius

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lillitheris wrote...

Or, well, actually…I think it would be unpopular to essentially die in Control, just leaving a remnant/copy, but I'm not certain. Thoughts, anyone?


First off, I just wanted to thank you, lillitheris, for devoting so much time, effort and patience to clearly and concisely wrapping up the details and presenting them in a way that could be implemented with (presumably) the least amount of resistence from Casey and the Mass Effect crew. Your dedication to the story, as a fellow fan, that has held my mind captive for the last five years humbles me, and I thank you for it.

(Also, I love your topic title. Looks like we're both riding those nukes all the way down a'whoopin' and a'hollerin'.)

As to the question I've actually quoted, since playing Dragon Age (Origins), my opinion of an 'Ultimate Sacrifice' by the player character hero has actually changed. Alastair's humbling eulogy, and the summation of how my Warden (my avatar picture) changed the lives of those around him, brought tears to my eyes. It gave me such a cathartic release that I was able to genuinely accept that I had done the right thing in the situation I was given. I realize that if the story is strictly being shown from the point of view of the hero that all of the wrap-up couldn't be known, but that's the great thing about stories - they aren't real life.

All of that brings me to the real answer to your question: I can be okay with my Shepard dying so long as I know how the story ends.

There were no fewer than half a dozen moments prior to the end of Mass Effect 3 where I was brought to tears/choked up (Liara's project, Mordin's death, Thane's death, to name a few), and I knew that the 'fix' for the Reapers would necessarily be costly, that's just how the epic hero role goes, but having a satisfying summation would have made all of that worthwhile.

Does that mean I want it to end on such a note of finality? Heavens no; I am emotionally invested in both my Shepard(s) and his/her friends, and I don't want to the journey to end, but I can live with it knowing that I can always fire up Mass Effect again later and start the story anew. Ultimately, it all boils down to the story living up to it's potential. If it has to end with a bittersweet ending, it could be something like this:

*Hackett stands at parade rest, addressing an assembled crowd, an Alliance flag draped over a -presumably- empty coffin*

"We stand here today, victors of the greatest war ever fought in galactic history."

*shot of many faces, human and alien, friend and former foe (Batarians), silent and attentive*

"Every race, no matter the grievances between them,..."

*Krogan and Turian side by side, Batarians and Humans shoulder to shoulder*

"...put that bitterness to rest and stood as one against a threat to all sentient life."

*nods of approval all around*

"The victory won here echoes across the galaxy, not just today, but also into the past,..."

*shot of Javik, nodding with approval*

"...and into the future. A future now safe from annhilliation by the Reapers. A future,..."

*Hackett pauses momentarily, then gestures to the flag-draped coffin beside him*

"...made possible by the tireless and unfaltering efforts of just one man/woman."

*Shepard's friends, some with tearful looks, others, like Anderson, Garrus & James, ramrod straight*

"A man/woman who, despite the odds, and regardless of the personal cost, chose to serve each and every one of us before we even knew that a threat existed. He/She did so, excepting only a few, without our support, without our grattitude, and without our trust. It's a heavy burden for a soldier to bear alone, but it is one that this man/woman did without hesitation."

*cut to the crowd, many with heads hung in shame, others held high with pride*

"So while we are here today to celebrate our victory, let us also honor the one who made it possible."

*solder calls everyone to attention, all salute, and lastly a close-up of Hackett saluting*

"You have the thanks of an entire galaxy, Commander Shepard. We owe you our lives, and we will never forget what you have done."

*pan out, seven soldiers from each of the major races (human, turian, krogan, asari, salarian, quarian, geth, batarian, etc.) fire off a twenty-one gun salute in perfectly timed, rippling sequence, fighters fly in formation overhead*

*during firing and flying, cut to close-up of Hackett, sparkle of moisture in his eye, still saluting*

"I'm damn proud of you, Shepard. Goodbye, and...good luck."

*pan out slowly, gradually zooming out and up into the sky, then beyond until all of Earth is visible, the sun rising beyond the horizon*

That, as a final scene (prior to the Stargazer), plus maybe each living sqaudmate with a turn at the coffin before the zoom out , would be enough closure for me, I think.

#19
cogsandcurls

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I know this doesn't solve most of the gaping logic problems the current ending has, but it DOES go a long way to fix the theme and narrative problems and make things seem less completely arbitrary. It's not my fantasy outcome (still despise Casper), but that said: if they followed this blueprint for the EC then I'd be pretty satisfied. Good post, very well considered and balanced!

#20
lillitheris

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Thank you both…bumping this slightly, I'll try to carve out some time to respond to you in more detail later on tonight.

It'd be nice if this thread stayed on the radar for more than 15 for a change :)

#21
lillitheris

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Just to be clear, if any of you have improvement suggestions, please tell me!

My artistic integrity is not unyielding :)

#22
lillitheris

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Added a small bit about possibly lingering Reapers.

#23
Kilshrek

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lillitheris wrote...
Well, yes, but that's the only other way to win. Not that they'd add it…or probably any other alternatives.


Possibly. But the Reapers can traverse space with no trouble. The relays only help them do it faster. What would take days would only take months instead. The Reapers only needed something like 6 months to get from the edge of the galaxy to get to Earth and steamroll everything. But at the same time, there's no conventional weapon that can destroy a relay. That and they'd probably have to sacrifice a dreadnought to accomplish the goal.

lillitheris wrote...
True. But if that's the only alternative… plus, I think the EMS balancing would help. If you can't get your ducks in a row before committing, have to live with the consequences. I think the geth destruction is a semi-realistic result given incorporation of reaper code.


I suppose, but in the event Shepard actually survives, then it stands to reason that EDI and the Geth should survive as well. If the Geth survive then I'm gonna lean on them for all they're worth. Build me a ship to find the Normandy, synthetics! You owe me that much. :P

lillitheris wrote...

It's quite possible. If they keep the Normandy as a real event, I think there'll be a lot of unhappiness (it's hard to explain reasonably). The Stargazer, you might be right. But it'd make a nice – and respectful – twist (like the breath at the end originally was), without having to remove the segment.

I don't think Stargazer implies it's a story, though, in the sense of a fictional thing. It seems distinctly that they were implying Shepard had become a mythical saviour figure, and the exact details had gotten lost in time. I was actually quite dismayed by the Stargazer scene, along with many others. It felt kind of disrespectful – although I know it wasn't intended as such – and I suppose it might be because we weren't able to build the bridge from our time to whenever the Stargazer's supposed to exist.


I meant that Shepard's story wasn't directly controlled by us, as in, we're not Shepard. We're Shepard through Stargazer.

#24
lillitheris

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Kilshrek wrote...

I meant that Shepard's story wasn't directly controlled by us, as in, we're not Shepard. We're Shepard through Stargazer.


Hm, I hope they didn't intend that. I think that would be probably the most disrespectful thing I can imagine :(

#25
Vigil_N7

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I like it, primarily because you put emphasis on making sure all three endings keep their integrity and aren't validated by one ending being the happily ever after one, which is something I see here a lot unfortunately.