356 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

No need to speculate, we're trying to define the endings

[Kunari801]

Nice outline! Let's hope the EC is something like this.

[TheCrimsonSpire]

This is really great Lillith! Not only do the devs keep their "starchild", but you made it work in context with a more realistic and feasible ending.

If EC is something like this, then I believe the fans would be very satisfied.

[lillitheris]

Thanks, both  of you!

If you've any quibbles, don't hesitate to bring them up…there's stuff I've overlooked and/or forgotten about, like this gem from the previous page, reproduced here so it doesn't get buried:

Hm, have to work in some of the choices from the game…I could really use some alternative perspectives here, since I have only gone through the paragonish path.

For example, if the genophage cure was sabotaged, the krogan will find out – very soon, too. In no case will it take over a year for them to figure out it's not working, probably much less.

What about other such things? Please tell me if you can think of any similar concerns…

Modifié par lillitheris, 27 avril 2012 - 01:42 .

[Zuka999]

I can't take it seriously with that stupid kid. No matter how much work they put into it.

[lillitheris]

Zuka999 wrote...

I can't take it seriously with that stupid kid. No matter how much work they put into it.

Ha, I sort of feel the same way…but at the same time, perfect is the worst enemy of good.

I know it's not what you mean, but it actually would be nice if they got rid of the child hologram at least. Could add a new option to the start, with Shepard optionally saying something like “the kid act isn't working, you can't influence me that way” and the kid just becoming a ball of energy or something. It'd be easy to also alter the voice even without re-recording: at the same time the form changes, the voice is dropped a couple octaves, slowed just a little, and maybe a little synth effect is added so it sounds more like generated speech.

[lillitheris]

Added a note about the projection change from above.

[lillitheris]

There's no way to make the geth or quarians your enemy, right? You'll just lose support.

[fle6isnow]

lillitheris wrote...

There's no way to make the geth or quarians your enemy, right? You'll just lose support.

Yeah, I think so. If you aren't able to save both sides, whichever side you don't pick is just wiped out completely.

Although... hmm, I suppose it would be interesting if there was an extra outcome for the rewrite/destroy Heretic Geth decision that affects the Quarian/Geth conflict if you cannot save both sides. Part of this is already implemented in the game, but...

Rewrite Heretics and Choose Quarians
Weakend Quarian support. Some Geth remain at the end of the Reaper War, and they become your enemy .

Rewrite Heretics and Choose Geth
Strengthened Geth support. No Quarians remain at the end of the conflict.

Destroy Geth and Choose Quarians
Strengthened Quarian support. No Geth remain at the end of the conflict.

Destroy Geth and Choose Geth
Weakened Geth Support. Some Quarians remain at the end of the conflict, and they become your enemy.

I guess they could have a text epilogue for this part, like they did for DA:O?

[lillitheris]

^ Yeah, that might be an interesting twist.

I bet there're tons of things I'm not thinking of because I'm playing your basic paragony character with fairly limited renegade options – and those mainly interrupts. Plus I always try to keep everyone alive and playing nice…

The krogan situation if the cure was sabotaged, I think, is the one with the biggest impact…I'll have to try to work that in.

[fle6isnow]

lillitheris wrote...

The krogan situation if the cure was sabotaged, I think, is the one with the biggest impact…I'll have to try to work that in.

As someone who has tried it both ways, I find all the possible outcomes interesting!

Tthe genophage issue is another thing that can have huge outcomes for the epilogue portion. Personally, this is how I think it would go:

Wrex and Eve alive, cure genophage
-With both Wrex and Eve leading the krogan, the race goes through a true cultural renaissance and rejoins galactic society.

Wrex alive, Eve dead, cure genophage OR Wrex dead, Eve alive, cure genophage
-Krogan civil wars, with Wrex/Eve leading the "good" krogan that rejoins galactic society, while another faction (led by Wreav, if Wrex is dead) that is warlike remains and causes trouble for the galaxy.

Wrex and Eve alive, sabotage genophage OR Wrex dead, Eve alive, sabotage genophage
-Wrex dies on the citadel, leaving Eve as the only krogan leader and the only remaining truly fertile female. The rest of the krogan (led by Wreav, if Wrex is dead)  find out about the betrayal and rise up against the other council races, but the second Krogan Rebellion is quickly quelled.

Wrex alive, Eve dead, sabotage genophage
-Wrex dies on the citadel, leaving the krogan without leadership. Without proper leadership and with no hope for the future, the krogan fall back to the status quo of working as mercenaries.

Wrex dead, Eve dead, cure genophage
-With Wreav leading the krogan and their renewed numbers, a second and prolonged Krogan Rebellion occurs in the galaxy. Massive ****storm, basically.

Wrex dead, Eve dead, sabotage genophage
-Wreav is stupid and does not know the cure was sabotaged. A second Krogan Rebellion occurs, but is quickly put down. Krogan race is wiped out.

I think that's all the possible combinations? Let me know if there's a combination I missed.

Modifié par fle6isnow, 27 avril 2012 - 11:19 .

[lillitheris]

^ That looks good, I have to think a bit about the scenarios…I feel that basically all sabotage versions should lead to an uprising of some sort, or maybe just attacking the Salarians (because there aren't that many krogan). Then the scenario with a cure and but Wrex or Eve could lead to a larger instability.

[TMA LIVE]

I don't know how, but apart of me hopes they can do the Epilogues without texts. Mainly because, even though I don't believe in the Indoctrination Theory, I know a lot of people do, and I do like the creative work up into the theory. And a text epilogue would kind of seal the deal that it's not Indoctrination. Or at least, it would seal the deal that whatever happened after Shepard makes his choice, it really happened.

I don't know how they could do it. Maybe a voice over from a character?

Also, my other concern is Destroy Plus being the best ending. If you're going to give me three choices, you shouldn't make one clearly the more rewarding. Otherwise, what's the point of giving me these choices?

That's why I think all endings need a Best ending. And not just Destroy. They don't have to involve Shepard living, but something to show these options are valid.

I'd only feel less bad about it, if in the Extended Cut, Star Kid hints that Shepard might survive Destroy, and same with the Geth if you points are high enough, because you've earned the right to freedom and unity without compromise. If he hints that, then maybe I wouldn't have a problem with it. Because then it's just a choice, instead of a choice with a metagame bribe.

Like I don't like someone picking genocide and Shepard dies, and got an awesome award by surviving, as well as not the consequence he was told.

While I didn't get anything like that, because I picked the wrong ending.

So either make all the endings have best endings. Or make it clear that Destroy might have an extra plus to it, before making the choice.

[Wabajakka]

I definitely like all this and would be pretty happy with it if the ending became something like this with the EC DLC. Especially if Control and Synthesis resulted in a somewhat meaningful sacrifice, although I'm still not convinced what those options are meant to be.

I suggest taking a look at my thoughts on what we may get instead in the EC and why we may possibly get post-ending DLC. I explain why it still can be indoc, but not a complete dream/hallucination. Since when did indoctrination create dreams, right? Trust me, you'll never look at IDT the same way again.

Have gotten a ton of positive feed back on it, been looking for threads just like this looking for some more ways to improve it. Would love your feedback too. Let's just hope someone in these forums is right!

[lillitheris]

@Orange Tee: Looks good, I'll delve in tomorrow!

@TMA LIVE: Thanks for the input – I'll have to get back with more detail tomorrow, but let me reiterate my argument from the OP (I'm not arguing that you're ‘wrong’) on a food-for-thought basis:

What are the good Synthesis/Control endings? If we look at the whole picture, in my mind all three ‘best’ endings are roughly equivalent. Their benefits are just at different levels.

That you think Destroy comes out with the best ‘prize’ to me would simply suggest that you see Shepard's survival or reunion with LI/friends as the most important thing. That's perfectly fine, and I'm sure many (most?) feel the same way.

Conversely, though, if you essentially value the galaxy and its welfare higher (including those LIs/friends), then Control and Synthesis are the better choices, despite the personal loss – that's what sacrifice is about. (I think.)

Now, I can see the argument that the situation looks a little different if you're approaching it strictly from the point of view of what the action is that you want to take – basically “if I do X, then these are the consequences” vs. “if I want to end up with these consequences, I must choose X”. Fundamentally, though, I think they're the same thing.

Sorry if that's a bit jumbly, trying to type this out quick before zZzZz

[TMA LIVE]

What I mean is, Destroy shouldn't equal the Geth, EDI, and Shepard living without any hint of it. Which Destroy Plus might equal. An ending without consequences, and rewards.

Whereas the other options involve sacrificing yourself, or forcing change, or risk losing control over Reapers, because you might've thought there wasn't another way. Get what I'm saying? I don't want something like that.

As I said, I don't like someone picking genocide and Shepard dies, and got an
awesome award by surviving, as well as not the consequence he was told.

While I didn't get anything like that, because I apparently picked the wrong ending.

That's what I mean by all endings should feel equal and rewarding.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[TMA LIVE]

If you're going to sacrifice yourself, you should feel like it was worth it. Not feel like it was wasted, because you picked the wrong ending.

[TMA LIVE]

It's kind of why I hate the idea of you having an ending with the Geth, EDI, and Shepard live, but the Reapers die. Such an ending implies that the kid is wrong.

And if that's the case, then what's the point of the other endings? What's the point of Synthesis? What's the point of Control?

What's the point of the ending period? To tell some character you only met for 10 minutes that he's wrong, and then live happily ever after?

If you're going to make a character like that, who's giving you choices, those choices must have some ground that they're real solutions. In some cases equal or better solutions. That it might actually be right. Otherwise, what's the point, if you can convince it that it's wrong?

If Shepard is going to sacrifice himself in any ending, that Shepard should feel like that sacrifice was worth it.

[lillitheris]

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's kind of why I hate the idea of you having an ending with the Geth, EDI, and Shepard live, but the Reapers die. Such an ending implies that the kid is wrong.

Wrong, or lying, or trying to steer you in a certain direction. Or poorly written.

And if that's the case, then what's the point of the other endings? What's the point of Synthesis? What's the point of Control?

That's kind of what I was going for earlier. If you don't value the fact that (at least supposedly) you get to let people live in a hybrid utopia without disease, with the synthetic threat ended forever and so on; or that you can let the people live in relative peace and without further disruption to infrastructure and so on, with an immensely powerful ally to use for rebuilding help and later as a galactic police force (or even as a tool for humans vs. others), with even a chance to continue your existence in virtual form…

If you don't value those things above your own possible survival with your friends, then Destroy is what you should be choosing, no?

While I do have to leave the relays and EDI and the geth open with Destroy, I think the question is still what more the other options should do? Is it not unfair if one is galactic peace AND something on top of that?

[Ahms]

Bioware, please, one time! This is it! You have a solid framework here! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND NOBLE, USE IT!!!

[fle6isnow]

lillitheris wrote...

^ That looks good, I have to think a bit about the scenarios…I feel that basically all sabotage versions should lead to an uprising of some sort, or maybe just attacking the Salarians (because there aren't that many krogan). Then the scenario with a cure and but Wrex or Eve could lead to a larger instability.

Yeah, agreed. It's just a matter of how long and bad the uprising would be.

[hanshotfirs]

lillitheris wrote...

[*]In Destruction, though, there's a twist if Shepard lives: think this sequence of events - happening before the other closure scenes:

• Stargazer does the first part of the speech.
• Camera cuts to a hospital room, with an unconscious Shepard peacefully in bed. One of Shepard's squadmates (or maybe Hannah Shepard if a Spacer, facing away from the camera) is sitting next to the bed, talking about how everyone's going to be talking about Shepard for centuries to come…but to please come back now anyway, there's still adventures to be had.
• Cut to Stargazer and kid doing the second part of the scene.
• Cut to hospital room. LI in room, looking out the window. Monitor alerts, LI turns around. Shepard opens eyes.

…And then segue into the rest of the closure scenes, rebuilding society and so on. It's very important that we also see rebuilding of Thessia, Palaven, Tuchanka, the settling of Rannoch….

Love that idea, it's genius!

[lillitheris]

hanshotfirs wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

[*]In Destruction, though, there's a twist if Shepard lives: think this sequence of events - happening before the other closure scenes:

• Stargazer does the first part of the speech.
• Camera cuts to a hospital room, with an unconscious Shepard peacefully in bed. One of Shepard's squadmates (or maybe Hannah Shepard if a Spacer, facing away from the camera) is sitting next to the bed, talking about how everyone's going to be talking about Shepard for centuries to come…but to please come back now anyway, there's still adventures to be had.
• Cut to Stargazer and kid doing the second part of the scene.
• Cut to hospital room. LI in room, looking out the window. Monitor alerts, LI turns around. Shepard opens eyes.

…And then segue into the rest of the closure scenes, rebuilding society and so on. It's very important that we also see rebuilding of Thessia, Palaven, Tuchanka, the settling of Rannoch….

Love that idea, it's genius!

Thanks I have to admit it's my favorite feature too! :happy:

Modifié par lillitheris, 29 avril 2012 - 01:28 .

[lillitheris]

Alright, it's time to call it quits until Monday. I won't hold it against anyone for posting on Sunday, but I'll try to abstain in support of #turnMEoff.

[UniqueNickname]

+1
I like it. And I hope someone from Bioware reads the topic and is inspired (someone who is actually involved in storywritting of ME3)