356 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

I really should return to this, but it seems a little pointless…

[lillitheris]

Hooray, semiweekly bump in case anyone has new input and/or hasn’t seen this before.

[lillitheris]

Bump in case anyone wants to revisit.

Also, my “ME4: Unity” fic is progressing well, and has touched upon almost all of the OP using the high-EMS Destroy option.

Take a gander if you like the idea of sensibly tweaked endings.


The fic heavily leans on the suggestions in the OP which in turn benefited from the discussion in the thread. Thanks for everyone’s input!

[lillitheris]

Here’s a bump for this thread too, for good measure.

[Fiyenyaa]

To be honest, I'd love to see the equivalent of blue babies, too, or real estate construction on a cliffside on Rannoch but… well. Let's just leave it at that. I, and a lot of others, would very much like to see that. Note that the only LIs to broach kids that I can think of are Liara (blue) and Garrus (orphans), so that part only applies to them.[*]
Does anyone have more specific scenes that they'd like to see for the other characters?

[*]Actually, Traynor mentions kids too.

[lillitheris]

Fiyenyaa wrote...

Actually, Traynor mentions kids too.

Excellent, thanks for the note!

[lillitheris]

Since people are talking about the same things solved here, once again…

[Bill Casey]

Control and Synthesis working out is ****ing stupid...
Offensively stupid...

Theme ruiningly bad...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 juin 2012 - 08:25 .

[lillitheris]

Bill Casey wrote...

Control and Synthesis working out is ****ing stupid...
Offensively stupid...

Theme ruiningly bad...

Working out as in having some kind of a successful end result? Can you elaborate?

[Feanor_II]

Woaaa, that was quite LONG......

Anyway, I like the idea that you express...... but let me guess..... "Destroy" is your favourite ending right? Why do I say that? Because in all your extensive analysis you focus more on "Destroy" than on the others, you offer more variabilities with it and also, because out of the 3 it is the one that gets nearer to a sweety-happy-ending, and the only one where Shepard survives.
On your analysis you try to present us with different scenarios with something in common, after such a devastating force as the Reapers the Galaxy ends very damaged (at different degrees), and I can't agree more with that, I really like the concept of "Winning the war but not being able to win all battles" that approach is in my opinion "more human" (Because we are not perfect and allmighty) and because of that I empathize and feel more identified with it.... But again in "Destroy" you seem to be cheating yourself, like trying to follow this idea but at the same time trying to get the most perfect ending..... with Reapers destroyes, minimizing the collateral damaged and, oh! keeping Shepard alive, even reunited with his/her LI. In my opinion that quite breaks the idea of "win the war lose some battles". And also being "Destroy" the ending where a super-gun is fired unleashing destruction I think it should be the one with greater galactic damage (refining so much the effects of the super-weapon... I can't buy it) but we can keep Shepard alive to compensate.
You say that you finally came up with a well balanced Endgame scenario, something that I can't agree 100% because of that "preference" towards "Destroy", to give the final touch balance I would add more galactic damage to destroy (specially to the fate of the realys) in any case, because otherwise an almost perfect victory can be achived.

P.S: Oh, and as you say.... synthesys needs to be REWORKED a lot in order to be believable.

Modifié par Feanor_II, 13 juin 2012 - 12:48 .

[lillitheris]

Feanor_II wrote...

Woaaa, that was quite LONG......

Anyway, I like the idea that you express...... but let me guess..... "Destroy" is your favourite ending right? Why do I say that? Because in all your extensive analysis you focus more on "Destroy" than on the others, you offer more variabilities with it and also, because out of the 3 it is the one that gets nearer to a sweety-happy-ending, and the only one where Shepard survives.

Correct. Although also because I think Control is pretty straightforward and Synthesis is FUBAR. I’ve meant to elaborate on especially Control, but as you can see, there’s very little interest in actual constructive solutions. There are several threads on the front page now that have multiple times the replies/views that’ve only been up for a couple days, whereas I worked on this for two months before giving up and just started writing “Unity” instead.

On your analysis you try to present us with different scenarios with something in common, after such a devastating force as the Reapers the Galaxy ends very damaged (at different degrees), and I can't agree more with that, I really like the concept of "Winning the war but not being able to win all battles" that approach is in my opinion "more human" (Because we are not perfect and allmighty) and because of that I empathize and feel more identified with it.... But again in "Destroy" you seem to be cheating yourself, like trying to follow this idea but at the same time trying to get the most perfect ending..... with Reapers destroyes, minimizing the collateral damaged and, oh! keeping Shepard alive, even reunited with his/her LI.

Yes, most people would choose themselves over the good of the galaxy.

You say that you finally came up with a well balanced Endgame scenario, something that I can't agree 100% because of that "preference" towards "Destroy", to give the final touch balance I would add more galactic damage to destroy (specially to the fate of the realys) in any case, because otherwise an almost perfect victory can be achived.

I don’t want to balance the endings artificially. I understand what you’re saying, but you’re saying it only because to you, Shepard surviving and reuniting with LI and friends is the most important thing, no matter how much your better angels try to convince you otherwise.

And that’s the point. That is the sacrifice.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[GreenDragon37]

I like your solution. It would not be what was promised to us, but it would be acceptable. Too bad I dont have a lot of faith in BioWare to do even this at this point. I'll always hate even the idea of Star-Brat, but as long as they make him not look like a child, I'll tolerate it. Also, I personally want the Normandy sequence gone, completely. I can understand if they crash on Earth, but running away from the final battle for the fate of the galaxy and leaving the man who brought it all together -their friend- behind? Unacceptable. 

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 13 juin 2012 - 03:31 .

[Thaa_solon]

lillitheris wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Control and Synthesis working out is ****ing stupid...
Offensively stupid...

Theme ruiningly bad...

Working out as in having some kind of a successful end result? Can you elaborate?

I'd still choose destroy

"Let the galaxy burn"

[luzburg]

the thing is that no one is requiered to sacrifice them self

[CaliGuy033]

 

 The Normandy crash: I personally did not understand it (like so many others), and psychologically this means that it's not ‘real’. And if it's not real, how can I be sure that all those people were OK?

...how can you be sure that fictitious characters were okay?

[Ieldra]

Your high-end Destroy ending has no significant downside. Your setup is unbalanced.

[Bill Casey]

lillitheris wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Control and Synthesis working out is ****ing stupid...
Offensively stupid...

Theme ruiningly bad...

Working out as in having some kind of a successful end result? Can you elaborate?

Yes...

Control working out runs concurrent to base themes. Control of this type is doomed to folly in the Mass Effect universe, from Miranda and Tali's respective fathers, to the Illusive Man, Project Overlord, to the Salarians and their uplift program, to the Prothean separatists to the Prothean Empire itself. Any attempt to Control the Reapers has led to indoctrination. Shepard repeatedly chastises The Illusive Man's methods regardless of options picked, and your crew repeatedly calls him crazy for thinking he can control the reapers. The theme is prevalent. This level of overreach shouldn't be rewarded just because Shepard does it...

This is compounded by the fact that the Reapers themselves are a force of corruption. Legion describes their minds are incomprehensibly powerful. It isn't like the Nautilus whose power itself corrupts Nemo; The Reapers themselves warp minds. Shepard is hearing voices, seeing shadows on the screen, and he just shot Anderson against his will a few minutes ago. Now he's going to control all of the Reapers. That's insultingly stupid from a conceptual standpoint. The fact that Anderson was yelling warnings and the Catalyst says "you will lose everything you have" turns this option from incredible dumb to "Schmuck Bait". Control working out turns the whole thing into a "Violation of Common Sense"...

Then we have Synthesis and I don't even know where to start. We've been fighting forced transhumanism for three games now. It spits in the face of the themes of working out our differences, self determination against fatalism, the socio-technological balance, and diversity. It alters all life in the galaxy under the assertion that there is something fundamentally wrong with us. It's beyond cynical...

This is again a recurring theme with unfortunate implications. The Reapers see themselves as the final evolution of life. Saren has been mentioned enough, but the Illusive Man is forcing transhumanism to bring humanity to the "apex of evolution", in his own words. The Collectors and the Zha'Til are examples of Reapers fusing man and machine, and then altering their genetic material at the deepest level to form something new. Pretty much your entire squad in Mass Effect 2 tells you rewriting the heretics is the same as killing them...

The way the Geth and EDI are presented has severe racist undertones for the assertion that synthetic life will inevitably destroy organic life. The Geth tackle hot button issues of slavery and basic civil rights, and the Geth Consensus had scenes straight out of Germany in the 1940s, where martial law is declared and Quarians are shot for "harboring synthetics"...

It's established through talking to EDI that peace between the Reapers should not work. World Leaders are being called into Reaper super structures to negotiate peace, but it's a ruse to indoctrinate them and pacify the populace. The leaders will soon enact laws that prevent attacking the Reapers, which will again be done in the name of peace. EDI makes certain to reiterate this. When the master control reapers says "we need eachother to make this happen", it red flags the entire situation and makes it working out another violation of common sense...

In fact, Destroy is the only option whose viability fits the narrative presented. If you talk to James Vega in your quarters, he will tell about how he destroyed a collector ship, but sacrificed most of the abducted colonists and his team in the process. There is no option to say anything other than James made the right call. Paragon or Renegade, Shepard says this was the right thing to do...

Lieutenant Victus doesn't want to sacrifice his men for the mission, and all Shepards talk him into it...
Hackett sacrifices the entire second fleet, and Garrus has to make some extremely unpleasant tactical decisions...

It's a dynamic that might work in Deus Ex, but it fundamentally does not here...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 juin 2012 - 06:40 .

[umadcommander]

Bill Casey wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Control and Synthesis working out is ****ing stupid...
Offensively stupid...

Theme ruiningly bad...

Working out as in having some kind of a successful end result? Can you elaborate?

Yes...

Control working out runs concurrent to base themes. Control of this type is doomed to folly in the Mass Effect universe, from Miranda and Tali's respective fathers, to the Illusive Man, Project Overlord, to the Salarians and their uplift program, to the Prothean separatists to the Prothean Empire itself. Any attempt to Control the Reapers has led to indoctrination. Shepard repeatedly chastises The Illusive Man's methods regardless of options picked, and your crew repeatedly calls him crazy for thinking he can control the reapers. The theme is prevalent. This level of overreach shouldn't be rewarded just because Shepard does it...

This is compounded by the fact that the Reapers themselves are a force of corruption. Legion describes their minds are incomprehensibly powerful. It isn't like the Nautilus whose power itself corrupts Nemo; The Reapers themselves warp minds. Shepard is hearing voices, seeing shadows on the screen, and he just shot Anderson against his will a few minutes ago. Now he's going to control all of the Reapers. That's insultingly stupid from a conceptual standpoint. The fact that Anderson was yelling warnings and the Catalyst says "you will lose everything you have" turns this option from incredible dumb to "Schmuck Bait". Control working out turns the whole thing into a "Violation of Common Sense"...

Then we have Synthesis and I don't even know where to start. We've been fighting forced transhumanism for three games now. It spits in the face of the themes of working out our differences, self determination against fatalism, the socio-technological balance, and diversity. It alters all life in the galaxy under the assertion that there is something fundamentally wrong with us. It's beyond cynical...

This is again a recurring theme with unfortunate implications. The Reapers see themselves as the final evolution of life. Saren has been mentioned enough, but the Illusive Man is forcing transhumanism to bring humanity to the "apex of evolution", in his own words. The Collectors and the Zha'Til are examples of Reapers fusing man and machine, and then altering their genetic material at the deepest level to form something new. Pretty much your entire squad in Mass Effect 2 tells you rewriting the heretics is the same as killing them...

The way the Geth and EDI are presented has severe racist undertones for the assertion that synthetic life will inevitably destroy organic life. The Geth tackle hot button issues of slavery and basic civil rights, and the Geth Consensus had scenes straight out of Germany in the 1940s, where martial law is declared and Quarians are shot for "harboring synthetics"...

It's established through talking to EDI that peace between the Reapers should not work. World Leaders are being called into Reaper super structures to negotiate peace, but it's a ruse to indoctrinate them and pacify the populace. The leaders will soon enact laws that prevent attacking the Reapers, which will again be done in the name of peace. EDI makes certain to reiterate this. When the master control reapers says "we need eachother to make this happen", it red flags the entire situation and makes it working out another violation of common sense...

In fact, Destroy is the only option whose viability fits the narrative presented. If you talk to James Vega in your quarters, he will tell about how he destroyed a collector ship, but sacrificed most of the abducted colonists and his team in the process. There is no option to say anything other than James made the right call. Paragon or Renegade, Shepard says this was the right thing to do...

Lieutenant Victus doesn't want to sacrifice his men for the mission, and all Shepards talk him into it...
Hackett sacrifices the entire second fleet, and Garrus has to make some extremely unpleasant tactical decisions...

It's a dynamic that might work in Deus Ex, but it fundamentally does not here...

wow great explanation, respect bro 

[estebanus]

Well done, Bill Casey! I 100% agree with your post!

[HellishFiend]

I think Bill Casey deserves a round of applause for that post.

[Jadebaby]

umadcommander wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Control and Synthesis working out is ****ing stupid...
Offensively stupid...

Theme ruiningly bad...

Working out as in having some kind of a successful end result? Can you elaborate?

Yes...

.. *snipped* ...

It's a dynamic that might work in Deus Ex, but it fundamentally does not here...

wow great explanation, respect bro 

+1. Well thought out.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 13 juin 2012 - 10:28 .

[lillitheris]

HellishFiend wrote...

I think Bill Casey deserves a round of applause for that post.

Definitely. I’ll try respond in detail when I’ve slept off my tension headache

Thanks for taking the time to write it down, Mr. Casey.

[Jadebaby]

HellishFiend wrote...

I think Bill Casey deserves a round of applause for that post.

I'll just give a round of applause for everyone else because they might not have the time or means to view such an educated assessment....

So for people who already had that belief and it has now been reaffirmed....



And this is for the people who are now a bit more persuaded to see - what could indeed be - the truth......



Notice too the coloured shirt.
The red lips, on the contrary are symbolic of the fact that they now want to "destroy you" for opposing their beliefs.

[DJBare]

Bill Casey wrote...
*snip*

It's a dynamic that might work in Deus Ex, but it fundamentally does not here...

Incredibly well thought out, and a real enjoyable read, thanks Bill.

[CDRSkyShepard]

+ 100 internets for Bill Casey.

I'm gonna have to bookmark this.