29 réponses à ce sujet

[filetemo]

I remember when DA2 wasn't launched yet, and early Hawke and Flemeth concepts were shown. There was talk about how the art style in DA2 was meant to be more flamboyant, often using the term "hot-rodded samurai".

I rather liked the mage Hawke's concept at that point.Then the Destiny trailer came. Hawke's design, along with the Arishok's stunning visual style, the city of Kirkwall and the design of Flemeth, brought me to a world of fantasy with it's own personality.I really embraced the art style.

Then DA2 came out, and while the in-game interpretation of that art was more or less well translated and all these characters evoked me the same feelings, they were surrounded by the blandness and generic DA:O style of many elements. Making the overall game a mix of distinct styles that didn't get along well.

Exemples of blandness

-generic looted armours (except several designs that felt like matching better the overall tone of the art, sadly many of those were DLC)
-generic outside locations
-generic enemies.

So my request is simple, please make sure that all components of the art are treated equally following whatever pattern for the art style of DA3 may be.In DA2 It felt like you put all your effort and art style in several key characters and outside of them everybody else belonged to another game/setting.

[Maria Caliban]

The art director used the term hot-rod samurai once. The forum parroted it endlessly until they latched onto 'Button -> Awesome.'

filetemo wrote...

I rather liked the mage Hawke's concept at that point.Then the Destiny trailer came. Hawke's design, along with the Arishok's stunning visual style, the city of Kirkwall and the design of Flemeth, brought me to a world of fantasy with it's own personality.I really embraced the art style.

Then DA2 came out, and while the in-game interpretation of that art was more or less well translated and all these characters evoked me the same feelings, they were surrounded by the blandness and generic DA:O style of many elements. Making the overall game a mix of distinct styles that didn't get along well.

I'm going to agree with you. There were parts that were clearly reminiscent of DA:O. The mage robes, for example, and the various mooks we'd fight. Kirkwall itself was bland in places, though I wouldn't call it a DA:O style of blandness.

[Wozearly]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The art director used the term hot-rod samurai once. The forum parroted it endlessly until they latched onto 'Button -> Awesome.'

Kirkwall itself was bland in places, though I wouldn't call it a DA:O style of blandness.

DA:O wasn't bland in my eyes - I felt it used gloominess in the artwork and colour palette to fantastic atmospheric effect. The DA2 art style was a major retrograde step for me. I completely agree that there was a jarring clash of artwork styles at times, however, although I believe we would propose different solutions.

As for Button -> Awesome, I think part of the reason that struck such a chord was the growing wariness about possible dumbing down (the phrase Dragon Effect was being thrown around liberally at the same time). Having the DA Lead get very enthusiastic about something awesome happening every time you pushed a button made people focus a lot on the reading of "your character will be ludicrously overpowered and showy", and why that would be a bad thing for the game and for the franchise, not Mike's more specific point about ability responsiveness.

The reason the phrase continued to turn up so frequently post-launch is that...well...erm...the doomsayers' reading had more than a grain of truth in it in terms of combat changes. Although I accept my own share of the blame for it...

[filetemo]

bump for more opinions

[tmp7704]

filetemo wrote...

So my request is simple, please make sure that all components of the art are treated equally following whatever pattern for the art style of DA3 may be.In DA2 It felt like you put all your effort and art style in several key characters and outside of them everybody else belonged to another game/setting.

I'm rather hesitant to support that suggestion, actually. There's this problem with "coherent designs" that is, simply put, it makes things do look like designed and built wholesale... which just doesn't work very well for settings which are supposed to be developments made over many centuries and by various cultures.

Kirkwall was a rather painful example of that, with the whole city and surroundings following the same colour palette and style. If the same practices got applied to DA3 it'd only get worse given DA3 is supposed to cover much larger/more varied areas.

[Sejborg]

I prefered the Origins style - no doubt. DA2 had weird cartoonish graphics especially on characters. Everyone was too smooth. Like everyone was covered in a fine layer of plastic. The elves were even worse in DA2 and they were already kind of off in Origins. The visuel style just made it hard for me to believe and immerse myself in world. I mean, just look at Flemeths hair, Fenris or Meredith. 

From what I have seen of Dragon's Dogma, that game has a artistic design alot more to my tastes.

Modifié par Sejborg, 12 avril 2012 - 09:53 .

[LolaLei]

Does anyone have any links to the DA2 concept art that OP speaks of? I hadn't known DA2 was coming out until the week it was available in shops so I missed out on all the fun stuff.

[filetemo]

LolaLei wrote...

Does anyone have any links to the DA2 concept art that OP speaks of? I hadn't known DA2 was coming out until the week it was available in shops so I missed out on all the fun stuff.

Flemeth

arishok

trailer hawke



destiny trailer

[LolaLei]

Creepy looking Arishok! It's not too dissimilar to what we ended up with in DA2 I guess.

[filetemo]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'm rather hesitant to support that suggestion, actually. There's this problem with "coherent designs" that is, simply put, it makes things do look like designed and built wholesale... which just doesn't work very well for settings which are supposed to be developments made over many centuries and by various cultures.

Kirkwall was a rather painful example of that, with the whole city and surroundings following the same colour palette and style. If the same practices got applied to DA3 it'd only get worse given DA3 is supposed to cover much larger/more varied areas.

I think you didn't understand it the way I meant it.

What I meant is:Looks like much design work went into some characters and almost none for the rest.

Like a team of characters from Soul Calibur fighting against sub-zeros and scorpions from Super Nintendo's Mortal Kombat 2.

[Brockololly]

filetemo wrote...
What I meant is:Looks like much design work went into some characters and almost none for the rest.

Like a team of characters from Soul Calibur fighting against sub-zeros and scorpions from Super Nintendo's Mortal Kombat 2.

I think thats what they wanted to do and that was a purposeful design decision.

I recall Matt Goldman (the art director) saying as much in some of the early interviews where he made mention of wanting the companion characters to "pop" more amidst everyone else. They made a point in bringing up how the backdrops and environments would be more subdued visually so as to bring the characters more into focus. I think they namedropped Kurosawa and Throne of Blood more than once.


If I'm understanding you right, I kind of agree. In that you had the companions in their super fancy and unique looks, while most every other non companion character looked like they were assembled using about the same handful of character creation resources, ending up looking kind of copy/pasted. Like how Fenris and Merrill's faces looked ok, but most other elves looked like donkey people.


But overall, I think one of the problems with DA2's art style was that while it may have been more coherent overall (everything had jagged edges/spikes/horns/feathers, blocky architecture)  it wasn't internally consistent within the DA world. The architecture in Kirkwall is supposed to be based on Tevinter, yet Ostagar was also a Tevinter ruin and looks nothing like it. Elves' armor and weapons and architecture should look different than the dwarves who should look different than Tevinter who should look different than the Qunari who should look different than Ferelden or Orlais or the Anderfels.

Arms and armor and clothing should look like its been created to suit the environment and climate from where the people are from. Game of Thrones does a pretty good job of this- the different houses have varied looks, most of which reflect the geographic areas and climates they originate from and all of them have their different sigils and colors. It gives them a sense of history and makes each of them feel different than the others visually. Architecture should play a role in this too. Different architecture should in part be based on the different locales these cultures originated from. In DA2, everything just kind of blends together visually.

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[FedericoV]

Brockololly wrote...

I recall Matt Goldman (the art director) saying as much in some of the early interviews where he made mention of wanting the companion characters to "pop" more amidst everyone else. They made a point in bringing up how the backdrops and environments would be more subdued visually so as to bring the characters more into focus. I think they namedropped Kurosawa and Throne of Blood more than once.

Even on a visual level, in DA2 they forget that the charachter number one of every fantasy story is the setting (at least in the western tradition estabilished by Tolkien). As a result the story/game feels/look like some chinese fantasy soap opera (that's one of the reason why people keep screaming JRPG!).

[tmp7704]

filetemo wrote...

I think you didn't understand it the way I meant it.

What I meant is:Looks like much design work went into some characters and almost none for the rest.

No, i got that; i was just concerned with what i think would be side-effect of that, because it's something that gets increasingly common with the games. I think DAO sort of dodged that bullet thanks to its very long development, but i have no hope the new installment would manage to avoid it, since it pretty much for sure won't have that luxury.

[filetemo]

Brockololly wrote...

 In DA2, everything just kind of blends together visually.

This was another issue, but kinda expected as we only see Kirkwall.

I think Mark of the Assassin did well by introducing Orlesian designs. Most NPC's showed visual distinction and unique designs that matched well with my "carnival of freaks" party.

@tmp7704: I hope a new graphic engine (Battlefield's frostbite anyone?) will address our worries for varied environments.But nothing is confirmed in that aspect

Modifié par filetemo, 13 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[tmp7704]

Ehh, new graphics engine? If i'm not mistaken (going by Mr.Gaider's comments) they don't even know at this point if there'll be any real changes done to engine used in DA2, let alone switching to anything different. A switch would be crazy thing to attempt given how badly the need to convert assets affected them with DA2.

[filetemo]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ehh, new graphics engine? If i'm not mistaken (going by Mr.Gaider's comments) they don't even know at this point if there'll be any real changes done to engine used in DA2, let alone switching to anything different. A switch would be crazy thing to attempt given how badly the need to convert assets affected them with DA2.

Maybe the third game of a franchise isn't a good moment to switch engines, but since there's multiplayer rumors for DA3 and given ME3 has multiplayer, it seems Bioware is not afraid to experiment with new things.

Besides, Frostbite is an EA property if I'm not mistaken. Bioware would get the full kit and assets working from day one, plus tech support from other EA teams with experience using it..

[Irx]

That art looks like final fantasy. Do not want.

[-Semper-]

Brockololly wrote...

I think thats what they wanted to do and that was a purposeful design decision. I recall Matt Goldman (the art director) saying as much in some of the early interviews where he made mention of wanting the companion characters to "pop" more amidst everyone else.

as already mentioned we can only speculate how much of the art design was intended. perhaps it was just a cover up story for the limitations of the consoles. they increased the speed of the game so they had to increase the framerate too or at least made it stable. as far as i know da:o's performance was rather poor on consoles but due to the slower pace it was not that noticeable.

besides bioware already said that they like skyrim's environments and how the areas there told stories on their own. seems like they're uturning the environment design once again, hopefully to better this time.

i don't think that changing the engine is doable in the given development time. somehow i doubt that ea shelves the franchise for 4-5 years. it also ain't really needed - there's nothing wrong with eclipse. bioware should concentrate all the available power on creating content. that's where da2 fell flat and not because of the graphics!

Modifié par -Semper-, 13 avril 2012 - 10:55 .

[tmp7704]

filetemo wrote...

Besides, Frostbite is an EA property if I'm not mistaken. Bioware would get the full kit and assets working from day one, plus tech support from other EA teams with experience using it..

But just owning the engine doesn't mean getting working assets from day one -- at best, someone would have to write custom tools to convert existing DA assets from its format(s) to whatever systems the replacement engine uses for its graphics. At worst, these assets would have to be built anew. Either option takes time, which is what i was referring to with my earlier comment -- the conversions/updates they had to make between DA and DA2 were so time intensive they weren't even able to port all race/gender combinations... and that was with the engine remaining pretty much the same, and at least some of the components staying reusable. If it's swapped from something completely different then it means tons more work on top of that :/

[Takamori The Templar]

Well yeah I agreed with OP DA2 artwork was a mess, it was a mix of the DA:O with what was supposed to be DA2, made no sense.
As for the next game, hope they take the approach grim dark with a realistic combat.
Don't like to see enemies exploding because I hit em with a friggin sword -.-.
If it was a fireball at least.
Hope they use the same animations from DA:O.

[Rawgrim]

DA2 looked like....someone had copied and pasted anime stuff into a western rpg. And those Ghasts looked like pokemons. It was so out of place.

[Sejborg]

Oh yeah. The art was off, but so was alot of the animations. I mean. Why or how is my rogue teleporting or making extreme jumps at the speed of light? Who came up with the idea to roundhouse kick explosive flasks instead of just throwing them at the enemies?

Perhaps it was some kind of experiment: "How weird can we make this?"

[Sylvanpyxie]

Why or how is my rogue teleporting

More importantly how is ANYTHING teleporting? It's quite clearly stated in Dragon Age lore that teleportation is a no-no.

So is raising the dead. *Glares at Leliana*

[Dejajeva]

I liked it. I mean, obviously I have the same concerns as lot of you guys have- more varied environments, more detail, the enemies could be more varied..and so forth. But if we're talking about overall art style, I thought it was much nicer than Origins by far and a giant step in the right general direction. The problem was the setting- because Kirkwall is..well, just Kirkwall, and I guess there is only so much they thought they could do. I'm hoping that this time there will be a shift away from characters- I thought they looked great- and for them to focus their detail-energy on environments. I want the deep roads to be dark and foreboding, keeping the same elements of architecture but more distressed, more ruin-y, darker, dirtier. I want them to play more with light and shadow- everything was too brightly lit. I want the forests to seem more ethereal, with shafts of light and shadows making the ornate and mysterious elvish architecture even more beautiful.

I also wouldn't mind things like wind, birds, rain, clouds, a dusky sunset...being able to see the leaves change color of the forest when I go later in the game- signifying season change. I want fog.

I certainly don't want it to be FF style though.


I want to clarify- I don't want companions and npc's to have less detail, I just want the environments to match the amount of work put into them.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm going to agree with you. There were parts that were clearly reminiscent of DA:O. The mage robes, for example, and the various mooks we'd fight. Kirkwall itself was bland in places, though I wouldn't call it a DA:O style of blandness.

I suspect they did this so that you could tell the games were related.  It's very hard to create a new style yet keep enough remnants of the old so there are recognizable bits there.  I'm not sure I want them to throw out EVERYTHING and completely redesign from scratch.