399 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Kingdoms of Amalur.

Exploration and open-world, but still small and focused enough that the main plot never falls by the wayside.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Less exploration, more story. Any areas that involve exploration should be the size of Hightown in DA2 at most. Now, pack more people and scripted background or color events into Hightown? I'm fine with that to generate atmosphere. Tighten the camera up to the party to make the world seem larger, sure. But I don't want to wander around doing nothing for a portion of my game session. Or, maybe this better expresses my feelings: Every place I go, every area I interact with should reward me with story, dialogue, and character. I don't buy into looking at pixelated bushes being its own reward.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

simfamSP wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kingdoms of Amalur.

Exploration and open-world, but still small and focused enough that the main plot never falls by the wayside.

I need to get that game... after I play Risen 2, Arcanum: Of steamworks and Magick obscura... and TW2 EE xD

The demo is very much worth a download.  It is time limited and contains several zones, so you can get a good idea of what's in store in the full game.

[John Epler]

LOTRO (and, in fact, all of Turbine's MMOs) had one thing that helped me stave off my WoW-inspired MMO burnout in order to get at least one character to max level - the realization that, if I saw something really cool in the distance, I could go explore that really cool castle (or tower, or what have you). Most of the fondest memories I have of that game are deciding to wander off the beaten path with a couple of friends and just see what sort of trouble we could get into.

Dialing back the nostalgia for a bit - I think the biggest reason why exploration works is if the places you're exploring feel thematically real and consistent. That means visuals, audio and content need to be working with each other and not against each other - and that's something we want to make sure happens, going forward. Believable spaces in which you aren't tied to a single path are great in that they allow for a lot of player-driven motivation and content, and that's a win both for developers and for the players.

That's not to say that we're planning on dialling back story, of course. Why abandon one of our greatest strengths? But addressing an area where we've been lacking a little bit isn't going to suddenly mean that the main plot is easily ignored or of little importance. But giving more content without having it all be gold-quality, highly authored cinematics is something that helps in the long run, as it means we aren't trying to pad out areas in unnatural ways (brief conversation, go down this side tunnel and find a sword! Now run back!), but rather that the player can engage at the level that they're comfortable with.

Does that make sense? 

Modifié par John Epler, 11 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[AkiKishi]

John Epler wrote...

LOTRO (and, in fact, all of Turbine's MMOs) had one thing that helped me stave off my WoW-inspired MMO burnout in order to get at least one character to max level - the realization that, if I saw something really cool in the distance, I could go explore that really cool castle (or tower, or what have you). Most of the fondest memories I have of that game are deciding to wander off the beaten path with a couple of friends and just see what sort of trouble we could get into.

Dialing back the nostalgia for a bit - I think the biggest reason why exploration works is if the places you're exploring feel thematically real and consistent. That means visuals, audio and content need to be working with each other and not against each other - and that's something we want to make sure happens, going forward. Believable spaces in which you aren't tied to a single path are great in that they allow for a lot of player-driven motivation and content, and that's a win both for developers and for the players.

That's not to say that we're planning on dialling back story, of course. Why abandon one of our greatest strengths? But addressing an area where we've been lacking a little bit isn't going to suddenly mean that the main plot is easily ignored or of little importance. But giving more content without having it all be gold-quality, highly authored cinematics is something that helps in the long run, as it means we aren't trying to pad out areas in unnatural ways (brief conversation, go down this side tunnel and find a sword! Now run back!), but rather that the player can engage at the level that they're comfortable with.

Does that make sense? 

It does make sense. Nice to see another LOTRO player too. The balance is keeping the story even when you are not a part of it, which is the case when it comes to open exploration. By it's very nature, it removes you from the story and plot. Final Fantasy X is a really good example of it.It's linear game till you hit the Calmlands then you have any number of distractions that have nothing to do with the plot. Blitzball is the same, I spent 60 hours just making the perfect Bliztball team(that's twice as long as I spend in ME3 total) and thoughts of Sin and the plot never came into it.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 11 avril 2012 - 05:09 .

[Maria Caliban]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Less exploration, more story.

How can you have less exploration than Dragon Age II? I don't recall there being any.

[Dragoonlordz]

On rails is a pit fall of RPG's of late and while helps script and focus things for the developer, tunnel vision is never what I consider great for RPG's. There has to be freedom not only in choices make in dialogue, party, equipment and such. Freedom of where to go also plays a large part.

A pure action game is on rails more often than not just like a movie or a book (excluding choose your own adventure). This is not a quality I enjoy in RPG's. Does not mean RPG's should be sandbox but I feel it certainly needs to be half way house between the two. If I am in a forest I want to explore that forest, I see a castle I want to visit it and explore it not run into an invisible wall due to it being nothing more than background image. My choice to visit not only the places where you lay your developer bread crumbs and especially not limited to only A>B>C>D progression through areas/game.

One of the lessons Squeenix had to learn over last few titles is that the corridor on rails way they handled it was disliked by many and since then with the latest one they brought back not only some mini games but also freedom to explore and interact far more too. While not on the same scale as in the Snes and Nes days they have had to take a step back and let the players have more freedom because that is what most people wanted.

The size and scale of freedom availible in DA:O was about the right size I think for this franchise. DA2 was far, far to linear and on rails as far as areas were concerned. A lot of small areas, few and far between with only one or two routes through it in mapped corridors created a feeling it was no longer a game but interactive movie. Hand held far too much and at the cost of exploration and player freedom.

Don't get me wrong when I say that to me your stories are not the greatest, they are good but if I wanted just story then I would rather spend my time watching a movie or reading a book. The interaction with so many elements within the world, freedom to explore, ability to make choices both from character (race/species, persona, equipment, skills) all which have an impact is why I play games. Focusing too much on story you lose part of the purpose of games. Like said pure story is best done through medium or books and movies, games truly have to be interactive on many levels to even accomplish their purpose "playing" as opposed to watching or reading.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 avril 2012 - 05:33 .

[the_one_54321]

Final Fantasy XII had some of the best open world exploration ever. (as a game mechanic feature)

Also the Deep Roads in DA:O were not big/expansive enough. We need more.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 11 avril 2012 - 05:13 .

[LolaLei]

Something I find that goes hand-in-hand with exploration, be it on a small or grand scale is background ambience, for me personally it's an important addition that helps set the overall atmosphere of a game.

It would be amazing if, for example: your pc 'n' co pass by the docks one evening and you can hear the lapping of the waves against the stone walls, the creaking of wooden boats on the water and the occasion bird song, then as you slowly approach the town you start to hear the sounds of people celebrating in the streets echoing in the distance, gradually getting louder the closer you get until you're smack bang in the middle of the festivities (this would work particularly well in a setting like Orlais.) It would also serve as a good way to show distinct differences within various locations in game, ranging from the more quiet secluded areas, to the bustling cities and towns we visit.

It's those sorts of sensory based things in game mixed with gorgeous area designs that make me want to stop for a few minutes and take in my surroundings.

Modifié par LolaLei, 11 avril 2012 - 05:18 .

[John Epler]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It does make sense. Nice to see another LOTRO player too. The balance is keeping the story even when you are not a part of it, which is the case when it comes to open exploration. By it's very nature, it removes you from the story and plot. Final Fantasy X is a really good example of it.It's linear game till you hit the Calmlands then you have any number of distractions that have nothing to do with the plot. Blitzball is the same, I spent 60 hours just making the perfect Bliztball team(that's twice as long as I spend in ME3 total) and thoughts of Sin and the plot never came into it.

That's definitely something to keep in mind. I think the key is to ensure that the 'extra' stuff you're doing makes narrative sense for the main plot - AC:B was good in that the reason you were running around, performing assassinations and taking down Borgia towers was because it was helping me towards my goal of taking the fight to the Templars. Thus, the main plot was never far from my mind. That's not to say there's anything wrong with the other approach, but it does create a different 'feel' to everything, and it makes it easier to get distracted from the main plot until you suddenly realize 'oh shoot, I'm supposed to be doing X'.

So you need to design exploration content appropriately - there should be goals, either explicit or implicit, and these goals should tie back into the main plot in some way. Blitzball was great (I also spent an inordinate amount of time playing that minigame), but the rewards you got were minimally important to the overarching goal of stopping Sin. Whereas something like Infamous had side goals that directly affected your power and ability to take on the main villain.

I'm rambling a bit, but I think you get my point.

[Maria Caliban]

The Deep Roads in DA:O weren't there for exploration.

1. You could only go there after you started a quest.
2. You had to go there for that quest
3. They mostly consisted of straight tunnels you walked along, slaying critters.

More Deep Roads would be a horrible thing.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 avril 2012 - 05:19 .

[SeanMurphy2]

Traditionally Bioware seems to build an area, add vendors, enemies and quest givers. Then in the final polish add some atmosphere with some crowds, bit of artwork and ambient dialogue.

It seems more complicated  and integrated for someone to design the area from an exploration perspective.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 11 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[LolaLei]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Deep Roads in DA:O weren't there for exploration.

1. You could only go there after you started a quest.
2. You had to go there for that quest
3. They mostly consisted of straight tunnels you walked along, slaying critters.

More Deep Roads would be a horrible thing.

Hm, I dunno. It depends what we discover inside the deep roads. Parts of it were quite pretty I thought.

[John Epler]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Deep Roads in DA:O weren't there for exploration.

1. You could only go there after you started a quest.
2. You had to go there for that quest
3. They mostly consisted of straight tunnels you walked along, slaying critters.

More Deep Roads would be a horrible thing.

I don't know, I think that the Deep Roads envisioned a little more like the Mines of Moria in LOTRO would be neat. I think the Deep Roads in DA:O suffered from being in a sort of middle-ground - they were too big to serve as a straightforward plot area, but too small to truly feel 'epic'. Though I still did enjoy them - I love underground areas more than most, especially the 'forgotten architecture' feeling.

[Dragoonlordz]

LolaLei wrote...

Something I find that goes hand-in-hand with exploration, be it on a small or grand scale is background ambience, for me personally it's an important addition that helps set the overall atmosphere of a game.

It would be amazing if, for example: your pc 'n' co pass by the docks one evening and you can hear the lapping of the waves against the stone walls, the creaking of wooden boats on the water and the occasion bird song, then as you slowly approach the town you start to hear the sounds of people celebrating in the streets echoing in the distance, gradually getting louder the closer you get until you're smack bang in the middle of the festivities (this would work particularly well in a setting like Orlais.) It would also serve as a good way to show distinct differences within various locations in game, ranging from the more quiet secluded areas, to the bustling cities and towns we visit.

It's those sorts of sensory based things in game that make me want to stop for a few minutes and take in my surroundings.

I totally agree, the living world element and simple things like rain falling NPC's seek shelter and wildlife of which I have talked about alot greatly enhances enjoyment of games for myself. A sense that they (NPC's) are not all waiting around in the same spot day and night (placeholders) is important to immersion. The little details make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. I hate those who rant on about story is the only thing that matters to them. Story is not the most important thing or element, it is a reason to progress but all the other elements add to the enjoyment along the way. As said above a game is not mean't to be watched or read, it is supposed to be played.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 avril 2012 - 05:24 .

[the_one_54321]

John Epler wrote...
I don't know, I think that the Deep Roads envisioned a little more like the Mines of Moria in LOTRO would be neat.

This is the best thing you have ever said.


And you said some pretty awesome stuff at times.

[upsettingshorts]

Every time I see a poster throw the term "we" around my eye starts twitching.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Every time I see a poster throw the term "we" around my eye starts twitching.

That's exactly the reaction we're going for.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Every time I see a poster throw the term "we" around my eye starts twitching.

Passive aggressive ftw.
I wasn't implying that my opinion on the Deep Roads is shared by everyone, if that's what's bothering you.

[Maria Caliban]

I suspect that he was referring to the thread title.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 avril 2012 - 05:26 .

[rolson00]

John Epler wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It does make sense. Nice to see another LOTRO player too. The balance is keeping the story even when you are not a part of it, which is the case when it comes to open exploration. By it's very nature, it removes you from the story and plot. Final Fantasy X is a really good example of it.It's linear game till you hit the Calmlands then you have any number of distractions that have nothing to do with the plot. Blitzball is the same, I spent 60 hours just making the perfect Bliztball team(that's twice as long as I spend in ME3 total) and thoughts of Sin and the plot never came into it.

That's definitely something to keep in mind. I think the key is to ensure that the 'extra' stuff you're doing makes narrative sense for the main plot - AC:B was good in that the reason you were running around, performing assassinations and taking down Borgia towers was because it was helping me towards my goal of taking the fight to the Templars. Thus, the main plot was never far from my mind. That's not to say there's anything wrong with the other approach, but it does create a different 'feel' to everything, and it makes it easier to get distracted from the main plot until you suddenly realize 'oh shoot, I'm supposed to be doing X'.

So you need to design exploration content appropriately - there should be goals, either explicit or implicit, and these goals should tie back into the main plot in some way. Blitzball was great (I also spent an inordinate amount of time playing that minigame), but the rewards you got were minimally important to the overarching goal of stopping Sin. Whereas something like Infamous had side goals that directly affected your power and ability to take on the main villain.

I'm rambling a bit, but I think you get my point.

i too spent most of the game in blitzball in the remastered version will most likly be online. problem with mini games is it has to be seperate and not forced on the player ( like me2 hacks) and i think bobsmith is right ffx did this well. but in terms of exploration kingdoms of amular reckoning is one to check out, so much to do 60 hours in and still have shiz loads to do!

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Passive aggressive ftw.
I wasn't implying that my opinion on the Deep Roads is shared by everyone, if that's what's bothering you.

I was referring to the thread title, though it irritates me in general.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Every time I see a poster throw the term "we" around my eye starts twitching.

That's exactly the reaction we're going for.

 

*twitches*

[Arthur Cousland]

I love exploring and feeling like an adventurer.

DA3 doesn't need to feel like an Elder Scrolls game, but I would like to be able to visit multiple cities and not just pick them from a map, but actually travel there on foot (or horse). Perhaps have some towns in between or dungeons to raid. A good rpg doesn't have to be 100% story.

Even though the Deep Roads in Origins may have gone on a bit too long, I still enjoyed them.  Whenever I come across ruin-type areas, I can't help but want to explore, and wonder what the place was like when people still lived there.  My inner-archaeologist comes out.

I also spent a good portion of my FFX gametime on blitzball.  It was fun recruiting the best players and kicking butt, while working towards Wakka's weapon+ability.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 11 avril 2012 - 05:37 .