Aller au contenu

Exploration: what we want.


399 réponses à ce sujet

#226
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 987 messages

HiroVoid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Two games I'd mention that would find the right balance for exploration in a Bioware game are Ego Draconis and Arkham City. Both nailed it while still being plot driven.


I'd cite FFXII as a great one to look at, as the whole world is connected.

I actually think there's plenty the DA series can take from that game specifically, regarding gameplay/mechanics/environments.

*expects heavy amounts of "You suggest they look at a JRPG?!?! Keep that **** out of my games!! I'm not interested in whatever argument you put forth in support of such a claim"*

FFXII sucked!  I went outside, and I got killed in one hit by some dinosaur thing!  There's a difference between hard and impossible!!!


Was the Dinosaur in the desert? If so, don't attack the Dinosaurs! Image IPB

#227
Vaeliorin

Vaeliorin
  • Members
  • 1 170 messages

SteveGarbage wrote...
However, I don't want a big zone that is 95 percent empty. I play Old Republic and one thing I hate about it is speedering or running across open expanses with nothing interesting or useful in them.

Actually, I thought that was one of the things that TOR did right.  Tattooine, for instance, was great for having huge expanses of open desert that made it feel like an actual planet as opposed to just a zone in a game.

Granted, that might not appeal so much to people who have severely limited playing time.

Personally, I have no problem with exploration as long as that exploration is interesting.  BG1 had a lot of interesting exploring, but it also had a lot of pointless areas (the Xvart village in particular comes to mind.)  Running across people who want to kill you, or a guy running from ogres, or a nymph working for an ogre mage is far more interesting than just finding some bits of lore that look like a clue to something interesting, but really only exist (or make sense) for the most lore rabid fans.

Honestly, as others have mentioned, I like Kingdoms of Amalur as an example of a modern game that is fairly open, yet still manages to keep things interesting.

#228
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Two games I'd mention that would find the right balance for exploration in a Bioware game are Ego Draconis and Arkham City. Both nailed it while still being plot driven.


I'd cite FFXII as a great one to look at, as the whole world is connected.

I actually think there's plenty the DA series can take from that game specifically, regarding gameplay/mechanics/environments.

*expects heavy amounts of "You suggest they look at a JRPG?!?! Keep that **** out of my games!! I'm not interested in whatever argument you put forth in support of such a claim"*

FFXII sucked!  I went outside, and I got killed in one hit by some dinosaur thing!  There's a difference between hard and impossible!!!

Was the Dinosaur in the desert? If so, don't attack the Dinosaurs! Image IPB

You mean the dinosaur that you were explicitly told not to attack because it would kill you? That one? =]

#229
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 987 messages

the_one_54321 wrote...

You mean the dinosaur that you were explicitly told not to attack because it would kill you? That one? Image IPB


Yup! That one! The one a Seeq in Rabanastre will tell you about. Well, he basically says that if creatures don't attack you outright, they just want to be left alone. But still, you were told to leave the greenies alone.

========================================================

To stay relatively on topic though, FFXII made a very explorable world.

Image IPB

Using just this map as an example, the areas can clearly be seen in-game to connect to one another.

Same with this map:

Image IPB

And this map is very big:

Image IPB

And so is this one:

Image IPB


Just look at the world map.

Image IPB

http://media.giantbo...e-World-Map.jpg

In case it needs to be enlarged for some people.

Those are all of the areas you can visit.

Now, I'll state that I found the areas themselves to not be very big sometimes to at least feel more like the big area they were trying to promote, but overall the game did an exceptional job at creating a sectionized, open world feeling that felt very large.

Very few areas felt small to me. But there were some. Jahara being one. Overall though, the maps themselves were well crafted, large enough to make me feel like they were what they were supposed to be, and very atmospheric.

Giruvegan's atmosphere was superb.

Another thing I absolutely loved about FFXII was that the Rains and the Dry led to completely different maps in Giza Plains.

EDIT: First, sorry. I posted a combat related thing in an exploration thread. It's not really pertinent.

Second, if Bioware's going to make a world more explorable, I'd like to see enemies respawn in areas -- within reason.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that the level up system could be abused. Couldn't it be made so that respawned enemies give off no experience to the player upon being defeating? They'd still drop loot, but we wouldn't be able to gain XP from killing them.

I'd also like to see enemies that fly in battle and can only be attacked by Archers or Mages. DAII kinda did something similar with the High Dragon fight.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 avril 2012 - 12:44 .


#230
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages

Sidney wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Wait... what?  Not sure how you can say that ES games don't give you a reason to go exploring, but at the same time argue that BG1  does.     To illustrate the absurdity of such a claim, lets use your examples.    BG1's   Firewine Bridge. In fact, there's only ONE quest related to the Firewine bridge,   and it's given to you by the Mayor of a Halfling village  that you have absolutely no reason to visit in the first place. And that quest is... wait for it... to go and kill everything inside.

How is that different from how the elder scrolls does it? Oh yeah. It's NOT. It's literally the same. Exactly the same.

Ditto with the Naskell mines.  That's part of BG1's main plot, in the same way that Bleak Falls Barrow is part of  Skyrim's main plot.  In both cases you are  asked to go to the aforementioned dungeons and   kill the troublemaker(s) contained within.


The difference, mainly, being that there are 300 places in skyrim and 290 of them are worthless generic non-plot dungeons.  Yea, another drauger barrow! 

Oh indeed.  That's a stark contrast to BG1, which contains only about   60  places and 54 of them  are worthless generic, non-plot  maps (oh look.  Another  grassy field!  Just like the last  20 grassy fields.)

You have no argument.  You made a false claim about quests tied to locations  in both games, and now, after being called out, you're trying to change  the subject.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2012 - 12:49 .


#231
wowpwnslol

wowpwnslol
  • Members
  • 1 037 messages
A big zone with cool mini quests and even mini storylines could be great. In Diablo2 you encountered a "rotting tome" which gave a chilly background on the countess and her tower, which was not really central to the main quest, but was still very cool. Random quests in the big areas is as close as I am willing to approach sandbox play and those quests must have well written dialogues, good storyline and epic loot.

#232
Sidney

Sidney
  • Members
  • 5 032 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

I know 'CoD type' is the go to insult on the BioBoards, but at least use it in a way that makes sense. Call of Duty is a linear shooter where you follow a single predetermined path from one cutscene to the next, and the majority of people buy it as much for the multiplayer as the single player game. Skyrim is an open-world sandbox RPG where you can ignore the main quest for over 100 hours. And yes, there is dialogue.


The association of Skyrim with CoD types makes no sense.


It isn't an insult. The fact that you think it is is your issue but whatever.

Still, what the shooter fans like about Skyrim is that it is basically  shooter with arrows and magic. The fact that it is non-linear and whatnot doesn't matter. In the game the combat is twitch based FPS stuff. If you can't aim your cursor it doesn't matter what your skill level is in the game you won't hit diddly. Yes there is dialog, sucky dialog but it exists. It is short, not very deep and easily avoidable so if you just want to sit down and play for 30 minutes you don't have to worry about that enitre time vanishing in conversations. You can just march to the next dugeon and start fighting away. ME and DAO have a lot more - relatively speaking - downtime.

#233
Sidney

Sidney
  • Members
  • 5 032 messages

Yrkoon wrote...
Oh indeed.  That's a stark contrast to BG1, which contains only about   60  places and 54 of them  are worthless generic, non-plot  maps (oh look.  Another  grassy field!  Just like the last  20 grassy fields.)

You have no argument.  You made a false claim about quests tied to locations  in both games, and now, after being called out, you're trying to change  the subject.


No, you don't get the argument but dear god have you ever gotten anything right?

BG1 has a stronger story narrative that drives you into the map. Yes, there are a lot of grassy areas that serve no function other than to clear the black. By contrast Skyrim has nothing that even sniffs a strong narrative (please, please don't even try to tell me you think the main plot is well written - no wait, you would) and so most places on the map serve no purpopse other than grinding.

That's great. I get it. Millions of people play WoW because they love grinding.  Grinding is something that has appeal. I'm glad Skyrim and TES fills that need for people and maybe if Bioware just wanted to get the most fans they'd go for that grinding experience but I'd hope they stick with storytelling and character interaction first and foremost.

#234
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages

Sidney wrote...
Still, what the shooter fans like about Skyrim is that it is basically  shooter with arrows and magic. The fact that it is non-linear and whatnot doesn't matter.

And there you have it folks.  We go from falsly attributing non-existant  things to BG1, to delving into the  practice of omniscient mass-mind reading.

Sydney has it on good authority  (because he's talked to 13 million people) that the reason why COD fans like skyrim is NOT because of its open world, its breath taking  freedom and customization, it's graphics, it's lush, varied terrains and dungeons,  its amazing leveling system,   It's quests or anything like that.  Because those things don't matter.  No,  the reason why COD fans like Skyrim is because... it's a shooter.  A shooter without guns, or bombs.


Yeah that's it.

Fail more, guy.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2012 - 02:48 .


#235
Sidney

Sidney
  • Members
  • 5 032 messages

Yrkoon wrote...

Sydney has it on good authority  (because he's talked to 13 million people) that the reason why COD fans like skyrim is NOT because of its open world, its breath taking  freedom and customization, it's graphics, it's lush, varied terrains and dungeons,  its amazing leveling system,   It's quests or anything like that.  Because those things don't matter.  No,  the reason why COD fans like Skyrim is because... it's a shooter.  A shooter without guns, or bombs.


Yeah that's it.

Fail more, guy.


Wow, so reaching. The FPSers I know - dear god can you overreact much more? I know you get hysterical about any question Skyrim isn't a perfect game but relax.

As for no bombs and guns, what little imagination you havde. You think a fireball or an arrow is that big a difference in gameplay terms between a grenade and sniper rifle. Yeah, great thinking right

#236
FieryDove

FieryDove
  • Members
  • 2 635 messages

Vaeliorin wrote...

Actually, I thought that was one of the things that TOR did right.  Tattooine, for instance, was great for having huge expanses of open desert that made it feel like an actual planet as opposed to just a zone in a game.


I don't agree. Taris was far better for exploring. Tat every time you run into *you will die in 5 second turn back!* and many times you were within sight of a settlement/hub. Ah well.

I do like exploring, but on an MMO travel needs to be easier if they really want people to make many alts. Speeders at 10 now I hear? About time.

#237
Dejajeva

Dejajeva
  • Members
  • 361 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...



I know 'CoD type' is the go to insult on the BioBoards, but at least use it in a way that makes sense. Call of Duty is a linear shooter where you follow a single predetermined path from one cutscene to the next, and the majority of people buy it as much for the multiplayer as the single player game. Skyrim is an open-world sandbox RPG where you can ignore the main quest for over 100 hours. And yes, there is dialogue.


The association of Skyrim with CoD types makes no sense.


Pssht, Maria.  The people on this board are always welcoming, friendly, and open to gamers of all types, ages, skill levels, and platforms. :)

#238
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages

Sidney wrote...

Wow, so reaching. The FPSers I know -

Oh, ok.  That means a lot.

LOL

Here, let me help you out.    Do even the most basic of research and you'll discover that  lots and lots of People from  ALL gaming tastes bought Skyrim, enough to make it sell  about 12 million copies  in 5 months on 3 platforms.  Why?  Because it's a friggin GOOD GAME.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2012 - 05:21 .


#239
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 111 messages

Yrkoon wrote...

Sidney wrote...

The difference, mainly, being that there are 300 places in skyrim and 290 of them are worthless generic non-plot dungeons.  Yea, another drauger barrow!

Oh indeed.  That's a stark contrast to BG1, which contains only about   60  places and 54 of them  are worthless generic, non-plot  maps (oh look.  Another  grassy field!  Just like the last  20 grassy fields.)

I would argue that both games succeed because you don't know which grassy fields are relevant.  Skyrim does distinguish fairly clearly between plot-related grassy fields and non-plot-related grassy fields, which is party why I think it is it the lesser game, but BG doesn't tell you anything.  For all you know, Brage is a major plot-related villain.  Or Bassilus is.  You don't know.  That's part of the greatness of BG, and DA2 actually did capture some of that by failing to present the player with a clear goal.

This is one of only two things I think DA2 got right (the other being the improved tactics page).

#240
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages
No it didn't. DA2 didn't get that right at all. Even if you decide to toggle off the plot markers (which by definition, are meta-gaming tools that  literally point you to  plot-relevant objects and individuals in any area you're in), and even if we ignore the fact that you cannot even interact with anyone or anything that isn't plot related (save for merchants and enemies, who will be marked as red  if they're killable), there's still the matter of the game hand-holding you through every minute detail of every plot, and subplot, to the point where the most organized, most detail-rich part of the entire game is your journal.

Not that there's anything inherantly wrong with  a journal that reads like a course syllabus, but to claim that DA2 allows you to "wander" or "blindly stumble" onto any aspect of its story is... well, not true.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2012 - 08:53 .


#241
Das Tentakel

Das Tentakel
  • Members
  • 1 321 messages

slimgrin wrote...

Two games I'd mention that would find the right balance for exploration in a Bioware game are Ego Draconis and Arkham City. Both nailed it while still being plot driven.


I am currently playing The Dragon Knight Saga (the ‘remastered’ version of Divine Divinity II: Ego Draconis) and so far, I can cautiously recommend it (that may become a wholehearted recommendation, but I’m not too far in, so…).

It’s a game that requires sticking to it for several hours, until it sort of opens up and you figure out the controls. It has large and open-feeling areas, a bit like Kingdoms of Amalur, but more ‘dense’ in terms of content. While far from perfect, it does feel like a fairly successful compromise between a relatively linear but simultaneously ‘spacious’ kind of game with a nice sense of scale and room for exploration.
It also has a nice, quirky sense of humour and an art style that sort of has a ‘Netherlandish’ flavour that Dutch and Flemings will probably recognise (I call it  ‘Dark Efteling meets Oblivion meets D&D’), and makes it just that, little but noticeably, different from Anglo-American, German and Japanese cRPG’s.

Anyway, DKS is definitely closer to what a DA3 could be, if DA3 goes a little more in the direction of Skyrim, yet still retains a linear/cinematic overall structure.

Regarding the relative emptiness of zones and exploration, ‘density’ is an important element.
And by ‘density’ I mean things worth seeing or visiting: Villages, ruins, tombs, but also variation in the landscape. A small area dense with towns, villages, ruins and little woods will be far more interesting than a big piece of tundra or steppe with few points of interest (although such an area can work if the intent is to create a sense of loneliness, desolation etc. It shouldn’t be ALL of the gameworld though).

This is also where the ‘environmental storytelling’ (and thus player exploration) comes in. Without ‘points of interest’, there is nothing to pique the player’s curiosity, trigger his/her imagination and make the player experience a story or imagine one.

By way of example, in Skyrim the fortifications of the small city of Whiterun tells a visual story. The walls are crumbling, and they cover an area that’s larger than the actual settlement. It sort of suggests that once, Whiterun was larger and well-protected by strong walls, and that perhaps it was once completely destroyed and the successor settlement is a more modest affair. The presence of crumbling outlying fortifications near the roads leading to and from Whiterun tell a similar story.

Another game that does a similar thing is the PS2 classic ‘Shadow of the Colossus’. The gameworld is pretty big, but also rather empty, which creates a strong feeling of loneliness in the player (which it is supposed to do). At the same time, when you explore, you will find remote areas with points of interest. The player will stumble on secluded areas in the hills/mountains surrounding the great central plain, and I had some great fun seeking them out, ignoring the ‘Quest’ and just exploring. At one point, I stumbled upon a ruined complex (a temple? a palace?) and walked around. I fell under the spell of the ruins, wondering what it had been, who had lived there, what had happened etc. These lonely ruins fired my imagination. I could very well imagine a scene like the one at the end of ‘The Martian Chronicles’ (1980)

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 17 avril 2012 - 10:02 .


#242
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*

Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
  • Guests
Great post Das Tentakel!

Exploration in a game needs to have purpose and the surroundings in the game are vital in adding to the total feel of the exploration itself. The visual aspect is crucial in the sense of the why you are there when visiting a place in the world your playing in. The surroundings tell part of the story themselves.


"density" as you put it is important to give you a goal. The Witcher and FFXII give you an open feel of the world without giving you the "running around to get to the next exclamation point to do the next quest". That all has to do with "eye candy" that piques my interest and adds to the enjoyment of the game. Exploring for exploring sake that isn't necesarelly quest related.

#243
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

HiroVoid wrote...

FFXII sucked!  I went outside, and I got killed in one hit by some dinosaur thing!  There's a difference between hard and impossible!!!


Try not going near it.

Elementals were far harder to avoid.

Xenoblade is very similiar, there are creatures you just don't mess with at the start of the game.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 17 avril 2012 - 12:18 .


#244
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 111 messages

Yrkoon wrote...

No it didn't. DA2 didn't get that right at all. Even if you decide to toggle off the plot markers (which by definition, are meta-gaming tools that  literally point you to  plot-relevant objects and individuals in any area you're in), and even if we ignore the fact that you cannot even interact with anyone or anything that isn't plot related (save for merchants and enemies, who will be marked as red  if they're killable), there's still the matter of the game hand-holding you through every minute detail of every plot, and subplot, to the point where the most organized, most detail-rich part of the entire game is your journal.

Your awareness of the plot-relevance of interactiveness is also a metagaming tool.  I'm always looking at this purely from an in-game perspective, so metagaming tools are ignored.

I include the journal in this.  Ever since they started putting metagame information in the journal (and DA2 does this incessantly), I stopped reading the journal.

The player doesn't know whether any given quest ties into the main plot, or even that there is a main plot.  That's DA2's strength.

#245
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

No it didn't. DA2 didn't get that right at all. Even if you decide to toggle off the plot markers (which by definition, are meta-gaming tools that  literally point you to  plot-relevant objects and individuals in any area you're in), and even if we ignore the fact that you cannot even interact with anyone or anything that isn't plot related (save for merchants and enemies, who will be marked as red  if they're killable), there's still the matter of the game hand-holding you through every minute detail of every plot, and subplot, to the point where the most organized, most detail-rich part of the entire game is your journal.

Your awareness of the plot-relevance of interactiveness is also a metagaming tool.  I'm always looking at this purely from an in-game perspective, so metagaming tools are ignored.

I include the journal in this.  Ever since they started putting metagame information in the journal (and DA2 does this incessantly), I stopped reading the journal.

The player doesn't know whether any given quest ties into the main plot, or even that there is a main plot.  That's DA2's strength.

If we're only looking "in game", then I'd argue that the exact same thing can be said for Skyrim.  In my first playthrough, I didn't even know that the Civil war was part of the main plot until  I was about 100 hours in and the Jarl of Whiterun  refused my request to summon and bind a dragon in his castle's court yard until the Civil war is dealt with.

Hell, if you  head east  or north after the prologue, you'll never even learn that you're the Dovakiin.  You can literally play this game for 200 hours  after the prologue and never encounter a dragon, never absorb a soul, never gather a shout, and never involve yourself in the game's political conflict.


Now lets look at DA2.  10 minutes in, after forceably being  made to walk the only path  offered to you,  you're told by your family that your destination is Kirkwall, and your goal is to become a noble again.  You then meet Flemeth, who further shepards you to your goal.  30 minutes in, you meet  Varric, who plainly lays out Chapter 1's plot to you.  You can't refuse him, and your goals are set.

After Chapter 1,  the plot calls to you via letters and notes that  important people like the Viscount send you.  It's really hard to miss something like that, and  impossible to roleplay a clueless guy who 'didn't get the message", as the game will not allow you to  continue on  until you do.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2012 - 08:10 .


#246
Blight Nug

Blight Nug
  • Members
  • 62 messages

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Less exploration, more story. Any areas that involve exploration should be the size of Hightown in DA2 at most. Now, pack more people and scripted background or color events into Hightown? I'm fine with that to generate atmosphere. Tighten the camera up to the party to make the world seem larger, sure. But I don't want to wander around doing nothing for a portion of my game session. Or, maybe this better expresses my feelings: Every place I go, every area I interact with should reward me with story, dialogue, and character. I don't buy into looking at pixelated bushes being its own reward.


I agree with this post.
Bioware should becareful about copying the success of other games. Bioware should focus on what its games have been about, story and player decisions.
I'd love to have a small sized area that is packed with interactive npcs and stories over a hug empty skyrim wannabe.

#247
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages
I have no idea why people think open worlds and story are mutually exclusive things, to the point where we're  begging  Bioware to sacrifice one in order to bring us more of the other.

You can have both. And you can have tons of both. Again, Bioware's done it before.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 avril 2012 - 10:32 .


#248
Sylvius the Mad

Sylvius the Mad
  • Members
  • 24 111 messages

Yrkoon wrote...

If we're only looking "in game", then I'd argue that the exact same thing can be said for Skyrim.  In my first playthrough, I didn't even know that the Civil war was part of the main plot until  I was about 100 hours in and the Jarl of Whiterun  refused my request to summon and bind a dragon in his castle's court yard until the Civil war is dealt with.

I've put about 100 hours into Skyrim, and I didn't know the civil war was part of the main plot.  Huh.

Hell, if you  head east  or north after the prologue, you'll never even learn that you're the Dovakiin.

You can miss it, sure, but the opening plot hook is a good one (one of my complaints about Oblivion is that there's every reason to ignore the opening plot hook - you basically have to metagame to ever find Oblivion's plot) so you'd need to be playing a fairly specific sort of character to wander off in another direction.

But the Dovakiin thing is what I meant.  That's handed to you pretty early in the game, and the quest lines related to it are easily differentiated from those that are not.

Now lets look at DA2.  10 minutes in, after forceably being  made to walk the only path  offered to you,  you're told by your family that your destination is Kirkwall, and your goal is to become a noble again.

No, you're told that their goal is to become nobles again.

You then meet Flemeth, who further shepards you to your goal.  30 minutes in, you meet  Varric, who plainly lays out Chapter 1's plot to you.  You can't refuse him, and your goals are set.

But you don't know that any of these are related.  You don't know that the expedition is the end of act one.  You don't ever need to accept the quest to become a noble, so the riches to be gained from the expedition might be intended for something else.

My point here is that it's more important for DA2 not to serve you the plot on a silver platter because there's nothing else to do.  If you know there's only one way to go, then it's important that you not know where that leads.

But in Skyrim, it's less important that you not know where a given path leads, because you don't have to take it.

#249
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages
Guys, seriously, FFXII. Best implementation of world exploration EVER.

#250
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*

Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
  • Guests

the_one_54321 wrote...

Guys, seriously, FFXII. Best implementation of world exploration EVER.


I would not say the very best but one of the best Image IPB.
The combination of puzzles and exploration are the best of the whole FF series. Just the way you had to obtain all of your summons was the best I've ever seen. And it wasn't the easiest one for that matter. The last one has taken me soooooo long to obtain but it was a great one to have.

Also the way you had to develop your character was one of the best ways I've ever seen in a game. But that's just my humble opinion here.Image IPB


EDIT; the city the main character starts in is het best explorationable (is this correct english?) town I've ever seen in a game. There was so much to do there, on allmost every corner and building, on the street and below in the sewers there were things to see and to find. It was buzzing with activity and felt really alive. It had things to do from start to finish of the game. Little side quests and big story related quests too.

Modifié par sjpelkessjpeler, 18 avril 2012 - 12:54 .