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[Allan Schumacher]

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

[nightcobra]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

at least for me, the more fun i had with elder scrolls was with shivering isles, mostly because the landscape and its inhabitants were off it's rocker, as for interactivity with the environment it wasn't so much as having the ability to grab anything that amused me the most but rather the use of clues in the items you got for solving enviromental puzzles, for example the dragon doors and keys that showed the symbol underneath. or maybe because i just love environmental puzzles.

some dungeons ala final fantasy 6 would be nice, where you could split your party into 2 or more groups to clear the dungeon, disabling traps, opening doors or dispelling seals to aid your other party to go on through and vice versa.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 18 avril 2012 - 08:19 .

[frypan]

Sorry to seem like I'm stalking Allan, was just pointed here from a ME3 thread you were just on.

Personally I find Skyrim has a bit too much clutter that has to be sorted through. Some interactivity in environments is certainly good, but it can become a chore for us completionists. I just cant leave that barrel unopened, even though its bound to just have some carrots or cabbages in it.

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

Yet for Dragon Age 2 you had David Silverman saying how there were too many books in the circle tower so they got rid of having subtle things in the backgrounds.

It seemed that you eliminated all the good background detail and everything was just decorated to the bare minimum.

[Maria Caliban]

ianvillan wrote...

Yet for Dragon Age 2 you had David Silverman saying how there were too many books in the circle tower so they got rid of having subtle things in the backgrounds.

It seemed that you eliminated all the good background detail and everything was just decorated to the bare minimum.

Yeah Allan, what were you thinking? Whomever put you in charge of level design and marketing must be kicking themselves right now.

[Midz]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Wow, so reaching. The FPSers I know -

Oh, ok.  That means a lot.

LOL

Here, let me help you out.    Do even the most basic of research and you'll discover that  lots and lots of People from  ALL gaming tastes bought Skyrim, enough to make it sell  about 12 million copies  in 5 months on 3 platforms.  Why?  Because it's a friggin GOOD GAME.

 And a simple perusal  of Nexus  mods downloaded   will  give you  a very   good  idea why and  what for.

 Bouncing  is very popular...........

[AkiKishi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

Interactivity with the enviroment in combat should be the aim of Dragon Age. Not so much picking up random stuff and throwing it at people.
Combat is at the core of Dragon Age so it needs to be as interesting and engaging as possible. Something DA2 failed misserably at with it's waves and health sinks.

[AkiKishi]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

some dungeons ala final fantasy 6 would be nice, where you could split your party into 2 or more groups to clear the dungeon, disabling traps, opening doors or dispelling seals to aid your other party to go on through and vice versa.

Not a big enough party roster.

[nightcobra]

BobSmith101 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

some dungeons ala final fantasy 6 would be nice, where you could split your party into 2 or more groups to clear the dungeon, disabling traps, opening doors or dispelling seals to aid your other party to go on through and vice versa.

Not a big enough party roster.

you could do it with the reserve party members.
let's see:

in DAO we had the warden,alistair/loghain, sten, oghren, wynne, shale, dog, morrigan, leliana and zevran

in DA2 we had hawke, isabela, carver/bethany, anders, fenris, aveline, varric, sebastian and merril. 

in both of them we could make 2 groups of 4 members so it could be done.
and it's a plus to see the whole party working together for a change.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 18 avril 2012 - 10:27 .

[Leon481]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

For environmental interactivity I would refer you to the game Trinity: Souls of Zill O'll. It's an amazing but tragically overlooked PS3 game that is similar to DA2 in a lot of ways (there were a lot of gameplay and thematic similarities), but with more of an emphasis on action.

Trinity had interacting with the environment as a combat feature. Any actual object in any dungeon could either be destroyed or used in your favor. Some examples:

Debris: You could knock down pillars/stalagmites/trees/etc. that would hurt your enemies if it fell on them. From there you could have your giant party member pick up those pillars and use them as a weapon.

Fire: You could do things like set tumbleweed on fire and kick it at the enemy to do damage, or maybe just set some surrounding bushes/trees/haystacks on fire and knock the enemy into it. There were also several places with gas coming from the ground that would explode when hit with fire, killing the enemies.

Ice: There was water you had to travel through that you could freeze with magic not only making it easier to move around, but making any enemies in the water more likely to freeze.

Platforms: In a lot of levels there were high platforms from which enemies could snipe at you. You had to actually destroy those platforms to get to them.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

To add to the rest of this topic, the game has absolutely spectacular level design and is something I think Bioware should look at for inspiration given that it's so spiritually similar to DA2. The explorable areas for one thing are not very big but also fun to explore because there is so much to interact with and every single dungeon was so different in how you needed to explore or approach your enemies as well as what environmental combat helpers were available.

Another part of building a good enviroment is strategic placement of enemies and how they attack. The pacing of the enemies, how they appear, and where they appear has a huge effect on the tediousness or excitement of exploration. Now, while Trinity did have a problem with absolutely huge swarms of enemies, what they did do extremely well was strategic enemy placement.

I was amazed, especially after playing DA2, how enemies always appeared in ways that made perfect sense and would use the environment to their advantage, not because of good AI (it was minimal), but because they placed the enemies so well. Enemies ambushed you for one thing. You would be on a walkway and suddenly you are surrounded by goblins because they climbed up the cliff below you, or maybe walking through a forest and snake ladies would fall out of the trees, or walking through abandoned ruins over a patch of moss that was really a pile of moldy skeletons that would suddenly attack, etc. It made exploring fun because you often didn't know what was coming or when. That was only possible because the enemies were used as part of the environment, not just as enemies. That is something that is all too often overlooked in level design.

Modifié par Leon481, 18 avril 2012 - 10:53 .

[AkiKishi]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

some dungeons ala final fantasy 6 would be nice, where you could split your party into 2 or more groups to clear the dungeon, disabling traps, opening doors or dispelling seals to aid your other party to go on through and vice versa.

Not a big enough party roster.

you could do it with the reserve party members.
let's see:

in DAO we had the warden,alistair/loghain, sten, oghren, wynne, shale, dog, morrigan, leliana and zevran

in DA2 we had hawke, isabela, carver/bethany, anders, fenris, aveline, varric, sebastian and merril. 

in both of them we could make 2 groups of 4 members so it could be done.
and it's a plus to see the whole party working together for a change.

Sebastian was optional. Unlike FFVI which had a very large party roster and allowed you to tailor the groups ,DA does not have enough variety to cover the bases. FFVI characters were both more numerous and more diverse.


2.1 Terra Branford
2.2 Locke Cole
2.3 Celes Chere
2.4 Edgar Figaro
2.5 Sabin Figaro
2.6 Cyan Garamonde
2.7 Shadow
2.8 Gau
2.9 Setzer Gabbiani
2.10 Strago Magus
2.11 Relm Arrowny
2.12 Mog
2.13 Gogo
2.14 Umaro 

[Yrkoon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I consider it  "cool", I suppose.   But    It's definitely not on my list of things I  *got* to have in order to really enjoy a game.  In the end,  I'd say a truly interactive environment only has a marginal effect on my immersion.
 
First things first though, Bioware should work on allowing the player  to be able to freely interact with his/her companions. 


Edit:  Sh****.  I forgot something.  Something I consider  a real *Plus*.  Environment interaction during combat.  Being able to take advantage of bridges and cliffs.  The Physics stuff.  Skyrim has very basic combat.   Nothing to write home about.  However, it lets you take advantage of the terrain.  Which is a HUGE positive.    It changes the entire dynamic.   For example, You're fighting a bandit on a bridge and you activate a power attack and the force behind your swing sends him reeling over the ledge and down to the river below, where he drowns, as the current sweeps him to his death.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 avril 2012 - 11:12 .

[Leon481]

BobSmith101 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

some dungeons ala final fantasy 6 would be nice, where you could split your party into 2 or more groups to clear the dungeon, disabling traps, opening doors or dispelling seals to aid your other party to go on through and vice versa.

Not a big enough party roster.

you could do it with the reserve party members.
let's see:

in DAO we had the warden,alistair/loghain, sten, oghren, wynne, shale, dog, morrigan, leliana and zevran

in DA2 we had hawke, isabela, carver/bethany, anders, fenris, aveline, varric, sebastian and merril. 

in both of them we could make 2 groups of 4 members so it could be done.
and it's a plus to see the whole party working together for a change.

Sebastian was optional. Unlike FFVI which had a very large party roster and allowed you to tailor the groups ,DA does not have enough variety to cover the bases. FFVI characters were both more numerous and more diverse.

 

I would argue that the characters in FFVI were actually less diverse than the DA parties. Usually in FFVI each character had from 1-8 unique skills and everyone had the same magic. All non-weapon equipment could be used by anyone, and weapons mostly didn't matter, so there was no much difference between characters at all. With DA you can have each character take entirely different skillsets and specializations making them each unique. Even if you find some way to make everyone learn everything, AI has to be set up and it's hard to make everyone fit the same role without making the game more difficult.

As for party roster size, DA:O already did the split party thing the in the final battle. It didn't do it very well mind you, but it managed it. There is absolutely no reason not to do it again.

[AkiKishi]

Leon481 wrote...
I would argue that the characters in FFVI were actually less diverse than the DA parties. Usually in FFVI each character had from 1-8 unique skills and everyone had the same magic. All non-weapon equipment could be used by anyone, and weapons mostly didn't matter, so there was no much difference between characters at all. With DA you can have each character take entirely different skillsets and specializations making them each unique. Even if you find some way to make everyone learn everything, AI has to be set up and it's hard to make everyone fit the same role without making the game more difficult.

As for party roster size, DA:O already did the split party thing the in the final battle. It didn't do it very well mind you, but it managed it. There is absolutely no reason not to do it again.

Esper system. It's lets you tailor multiple groups with required skills.

[Leon481]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Leon481 wrote...
I would argue that the characters in FFVI were actually less diverse than the DA parties. Usually in FFVI each character had from 1-8 unique skills and everyone had the same magic. All non-weapon equipment could be used by anyone, and weapons mostly didn't matter, so there was no much difference between characters at all. With DA you can have each character take entirely different skillsets and specializations making them each unique. Even if you find some way to make everyone learn everything, AI has to be set up and it's hard to make everyone fit the same role without making the game more difficult.

As for party roster size, DA:O already did the split party thing the in the final battle. It didn't do it very well mind you, but it managed it. There is absolutely no reason not to do it again.

Esper system. It's lets you tailor multiple groups with required skills.

It's functionally the exact same thing that they have in DA except with more grinding and no specializations.

Modifié par Leon481, 18 avril 2012 - 11:57 .

[Dutchess]

Filament wrote...

And occasionally I wouldn't mind picking up a cheese wheel and doing interesting things with it.

.... Do I even want to know?


Ontopic: I don't think it's necessary in Dragon Age to have every object clickable. That's not really the reason I like Skyrim either. Often it is more annoying: I want to grab the healing potion from the table, but intead I end up with a wooden bowl in my inventory.

I think DAO handled exploration okay, with the hidden interactable items everywhere (you did have to know the TAB button to find them, heh), and various NPCs who you could talk to without them being essential for a quest. I liked that, and it made me click on everyone, and find new things even after five play throughs. I missed that in DA2.

[TEWR]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

It's not a dealbreaker for me. If it's there, that's great and I would enjoy it. If not, then it doesn't bug me.

That said, I would definitely enjoy its presence. I would love to be able to trigger traps that have an effect on the battle like in Legacy.

But one of the things I absolutely loved in Skyrim was this:

So I'm taking my Nordic Dragonborn through a Draugr crypt or something. The place is littered with pendulum blade traps. I'm sneaking along, and a bandit manages to see me. She starts coming to get me, avoiding the swinging traps along the way.

I take out my bow and fire an arrow that sends her back a few feet, right into the traps where she then died.

It was glorious.

There's also something in FFXII that I liked regarding this: There's a certain part of the Rains version of the Giza Plains that's only accessible when you knock down dead trees into the rivers, where they would then flow to a common point and form a makeshift bridge.

That, to me, was pretty awesome.

So I would welcome interactive environments certainly, but it shouldn't be a priority given that there are other, more important things to worry about.

Definitely bring back more detailed environments though.

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

EDIT; the city the main character starts in is het best explorationable (is this correct english?) town I've ever seen in a game. There was so much to do there, on allmost every corner and building, on the street and below in the sewers there were things to see and to find. It was buzzing with activity and felt really alive. It had things to do from start to finish of the game. Little side quests and big story related quests too.

Rabanastre. Yea Rabanastre was great. Everyone had the same amount of graphic detail and if you entered a store you could see the people examining the wares.

Amal's Weaponry had people looking at the swords. You had Imperial Soldiers making sure that nothing too powerful was being sold to the common Dalmascan citizen.

You had Imperial Soldiers in that same shop that put up a petition to kill a Wyvern because of the threat it might pose to the city, where the petitioner was willing to pay out of his own pocket to ensure the city's safety.

People were holding conversations with other people, though this wasn't always well done in a realistic fashion. A group of three people would all be conversing, but they'd all be talking at the same time. Realistically, that would lead to a conversation being hard to follow because you wouldn't be able to hear what one person was saying. But it's only if you examine it very closely.

Now, personally I felt that Rabanastre wasn't big enough as it should've been. The city I mean, Lowtown excluded because I was content with that.

It just needed to be a little bigger IMO, but it was still great.







FFXII is definitely the perfect game to look at for a balance between an open world and sectionized areas. Every area is connected to other areas. Just look at the above image. The Garamsythe Waterway leads to the Barheim Passage.

The Barheim Passage eventually leads to the Dalmasca Westersand. The Westersand leads to the Zertinan Caverns, the Giza Plains, the Estersand, Rabanastre, and the Ogir Yensa Sandsea.

Basically, every area is connected. A good portion of them by the Zertinan Caverns, but IIRC other subterranean networks connect to other areas.



The Zertinan Caverns.

So, I would definitely strongly suggest that Bioware -- and players unfamiliar with FFXII -- look at FFXII's environments.





Gameplay video of the Garamsythe Waterway

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 avril 2012 - 01:48 .

[AkiKishi]

Leon481 wrote...

It's functionally the exact same thing that they have in DA except with more grinding and no specializations.

Not even close. You can't put skills/spells on companions in DA2.

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

snip...

Fond memories.

Xenoblade has a very similiar vibe. Day/night cycle, variable weather, similiar structured enviroments. Game plays quite similiar too, except you cant program the AI in the same way and it's more skill/art based.

Wierd how after all the openess in FXII we went back to on rails XIII , overcompensating just like Bioware did with DA2.

[TEWR]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Fond memories.

Xenoblade has a very similiar vibe. Day/night cycle, variable weather, similiar structured enviroments. Game plays quite similiar too, except you cant program the AI in the same way and it's more skill/art based.

Wierd how after all the openess in FXII we went back to on rails XIII , overcompensating just like Bioware did with DA2.

Indeed. I enjoyed the story of FFXIII but the sheer linearity of it killed the game for me for a while. Then when I finally got to Gran Pulse, the open world seemed more like something that was added in at the last minute rather then something I had come to love about the FF series.