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[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
There has to be a reward. From what I've read, FFXII's rewards are either scenery (which has 0 payoff), loot or environmental puzzles.

Ah, but there's the rub! Actually, FFXII never sends you anywhere without a direct story motivation, and every region of the game is linked to the others by a series of transitions and by the fact that all are also directly included in the story.

I was recently describing Ultima IV to someone, and I realised the same was true.  U4 is a purely open world, but literally all of it is related to the main quest.  There aren't really any side-quests in U4 - all of the little quests are ultimately necessary to complete the game (and for non-arbitrary reasons).  So there's tons of exploration, but all of it could be done in search of specific quest objectives, and all of those quests are mandatory.

Well, there are actually lots of side quessts in FFXII, but none of them are necessary to complete the game. To be honest, I think that maybe 2 of the regions* are also not necessary for completeing the game, but that's out of the entirety of the very very large world. There's something like over 20 regions, and the story specifically sends you to all but 2.

*when I say "region," I am refering to a map group that contains multiple areas that are all related by being part of this larger grouping.

[Atakuma]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I don't really care much for exploration, I just like the world feel like an actual place instead of series of trails.

What game(s) did that for you?

The Witcher games are probably the best examples.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Ah, but there's the rub! Actually, FFXII never sends you anywhere without a direct story motivation, and every region of the game is linked to the others by a series of transitions and by the fact that all are also directly included in the story.

Which is better than TES, to be sure, but doesn't solve the size+walking problem.

Could you elaborate a bit on the size+walking problem? Do you mean that you dislike having to move across dozens of maps to get to one area?

Because FFXII had a way to solve that, but I know DA can't use anything similar to FFXII's Gate Crystals or the Moogling. However, DA could use the fact that Mages can move really fast from point A to point B.

Given that teleportation is something that hasn't been discovered yet by the multitude of the Thedosian population, talking to a Mage companion to perform this would work best.

If it could be developed by the devs to work.

And the FF series has made it a point to have Chocobos as a form of travel -- as well as airships, but that's something Bioware wouldn't do for DA since it doesn't fit the established setting we have. No reason DA couldn't have you riding a horse/halla/bronto throughout the lands.

As another note: thinking back on FFXII there is this one race in there that has some striking simularities to the Qunari in DA2..............................Allthough they were wearing masks but none the less.

The Garif. They seemed to be the equivalent of Native Americans in Ivalice in some respects.

Though they also seemed to be bird-like.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Could you elaborate a bit on the size+walking problem? Do you mean that you dislike having to move across dozens of maps to get to one area?

Yes. I literally dislike walking in games. About as much as I dislike walking in real-life, when I have to get somewhere. What I do like about walking and travelling - fresh air, sun, chatting with friends - are not things that you can have in-game. So only the tedium remains.

And to clarify, I hate doing it the first time. So a fast travel doesn't really do it for me, insofar as I have to travel in the first place. Combat tends to make it worthwhile, but combat has the unfortunate tendency of either being too sparse (so I just get stuck with lots of walking) or too common (so then it becomes a grindfest).

Given that teleportation is something that hasn't been discovered yet by the multitude of the Thedosian population, talking to a Mage companion to perform this would work best.

You can come up with a fast travel system without actual magic. Just fade the screen to black.

And the FF series has made it a point to have Chocobos as a form of travel -- as well as airships, but that's something Bioware wouldn't do for DA since it doesn't fit the established setting we have. No reason DA couldn't have you riding a horse/halla/bronto throughout the lands.

Riding is just fast walking. It doesn't solve the problem - it changes the character model.

Contrast that with AC. In AC, you don't need to walk. You can free run. And the parkour is a big part of what makes the game really fun. So when I say that the travel needs to be fun, I mean the actual means of transportation ought to be fun.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Contrast that with AC. In AC, you don't need to walk.

Can you, though.

Actually having the play through travel (rather than just walking) would be annoying.

I'd rather walk.  I like walking.  That's why I wanted the Deep Roads to be longer: more walking.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Can you, though.

Yes. Quite realistically, actually (at least, compared to how other games deal with crowds and walking).

Actually having the play through travel (rather than just walking) would be annoying.

I'd rather walk.  I like walking.  That's why I wanted the Deep Roads to be longer: more walking.

I wouldn't mind long Deep Roads (I actually love the feel of them) if we were in the actual deep roads instead of "random spider cave 55".

[aries1001]

Just for the the record, I'll say this:

Please do not ever make dungeons as long as the deep roads in DA: O. I was tired after I went into the first three roads that was deep and little did I know that I needn't to track on for what 4-6 more deep roads. Part of the problem seemed also that I didn't what I was supposed to do or what route I should take. I know that maybe 5 or 10 years ago, this would be seen as exploration, but today, sadly , I simply don't have the time to go around exploring virtual environments anymore. That's why I liked the deep roads in DA2, poignant, salient and to the point. And short. (compared to the deep roads in DA2) In Awakening, you go into Deep Roads as well, but this actually make sense, since you need to explore the Deep Roads because you need to do something and to find something.

As for the Deep Roads in the DA:O game, I understand that it is thrilling to adventuring not being sure of what we'll find. But mostly, in the DA: O game, in the deep roads, we found darkspawn. At least throw something else in there, something unexpected...

[Dakota Strider]

aries1001 wrote...

(snip)
As for the Deep Roads in the DA:O game, I understand that it is thrilling to adventuring not being sure of what we'll find. But mostly, in the DA: O game, in the deep roads, we found darkspawn. At least throw something else in there, something unexpected...

http://ts4.mm.bing.n...1e4c3fafebdf6d6

I actually wish they had been longer....but I am always the type that likes the journey, just as much, or more than the destination.

[In Exile]

Dakota Strider wrote...
I actually wish they had been longer....but I am always the type that likes the journey, just as much, or more than the destination.

Journeys are fun.. but there's journey in the backpacking through Europe sense and journey in the "stuck in gridlock on a thursday afternnon" sense, and this a lot more like the latter.

[addiction21]

In Exile wrote...

I wouldn't mind long Deep Roads (I actually love the feel of them) if we were in the actual deep roads instead of "random spider cave 55".

I could do a whole game in the deep roads. Thats just me.

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

All i want is visually fully realized maps with great detail and clever invisible walls, non of that blatant stuff bioware is infamous for. Some form of interactivity like physically interactive foliage.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

"stuck in gridlock on a thursday afternnon"

You just described my perception of DA2's combat.  Needless frustrating monotony.

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

another very important thing is Physically adaptive animation in refrence to how the terrain is. If My character is going uphill, i want animations to account for that, If he is going downhill it has to show, in high fidelity. A climbing/sliding animation if a hill is too steep.

[the_one_54321]

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...
another very important thing is Physically adaptive animation in refrence to how the terrain is. If My character is going uphill, i want animations to account for that, If he is going downhill it has to show, in high fidelity. A climbing/sliding animation if a hill is too steep.

I can live without this. It sounds expensive to do.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...
another very important thing is Physically adaptive animation in refrence to how the terrain is. If My character is going uphill, i want animations to account for that, If he is going downhill it has to show, in high fidelity. A climbing/sliding animation if a hill is too steep.

I can live without this. It sounds expensive to do.

I agree, that sounds entirely unnecessary.

I would like to see actual collision detection between the PC and visible ground, though.  DAO's ground actually had bumps the PC had to walk over.  DA2's bumps aren't real, though, so the PC just walks through them.

DAO's approach is better.

[Maria Caliban]

Atakuma wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I don't really care much for exploration, I just like the world feel like an actual place instead of series of trails.

What game(s) did that for you?

The Witcher games are probably the best examples.

The Witcher games have been good for this. Agreed.

[Kileyan]

I like exploring, walking down a river formed deep valley to the end and finding either a cool dungeon, old ruins with some lore, or just a really cool bit of scenery. In fact, exploration, always hoping to feel like my character is the first to stumble across some hidden valley is one of my favorite parts of games, whether they are rpgs, shooters or a mix.

A couple of people seem to say they dislike walking but like exploration. I'm fine with a overland map that just shows our characters trail, and highlights if we come close to something interesting, although I really do prefer actually walking and seeing things as I travel. Bioware has said over and over they do not do those kind of games, and the size of the previous games maps seem to hint that their game engine can't handle anything like that anyway.

I am getting a little bit tired of the Bioware game engine or purposeful design(which ever), where you travel no where, everything is compartmentalize little boxy adventure areas that you are teleported to as needed.

Short version, put me up as one of those that don't mind walking, if there is something to see during my journeys. I don't want to walk if it is just miles of sand colored 10 foot wide paths that are similar to the DA2 coastline "outdoor" areas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

simfamSP wrote...

But you like TES no?

I don't like their combat, but there's little enough of it in the game to make it less of an impediment to my enjoyment.  Plus, there are tactical options for slowing down the pace of combat, like attacking from extreme range or summoning atronachs to fight for you.

Honestly, if Skyrim had a VATS-like system it would be one of my all-time favourite games.

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

Riding is just fast walking. It doesn't solve the problem - it changes the character model.

It could make it fun, depending on how it's done. But I don't want to get into how it could be fun, since I only have rough ideas and nowhere near enough detail on the subject.

At the very least though, riding does begin to solve the problem, even if it's only a little bit. It depends on how fast the mount is moving.

FFXII had it so that you could have your mount sprint throughout the sections 3 times.

I'd welcome something similar.

Contrast that with AC. In AC, you don't need to walk. You can free run. And the parkour is a big part of what makes the game really fun. So when I say that the travel needs to be fun, I mean the actual means of transportation ought to be fun.

Indeed, parkour in the AC games is probably one of my favorite things about the games. Parkour is even better when you do it in real life -- like I've often done and still do.

Alas, I doubt the DA engines could account for parkour.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Riding is just fast walking. It doesn't solve the problem - it changes the character model.

It could make it fun, depending on how it's done. But I don't want to get into how it could be fun, since I only have rough ideas and nowhere near enough detail on the subject.

The Mako, I would argue, was fun fast-walking.

[slimgrin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

You know something? I'm glad you posted, because good level design has nothing to do with throwing oranges...what? Am I being glib?

This post is so pure Bioware. Ignore what the feedback really is, demean the person making said criticism, and spin it. Don't forget the spin. In the rare event that you are receptive, let me spell it out for you: level design in Bioware games has become about as creative as navigating my way to work. It's predictable, generic, and boring. It lack any sense of organic space whatsoever. You guys don't create lived-in and believable areas, you create video game levels. Still. And that is the problem. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 avril 2012 - 01:32 .