399 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Allan is great. He's friendly, enthusiastic, and enjoys talking about games.

He wasn't 'spinning' or ignoring criticism. Just asking what people thought about environmental interactivity.

[nightcobra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I don't really care much for exploration, I just like the world feel like an actual place instead of series of trails.

What game(s) did that for you?

The Witcher games are probably the best examples.

The Witcher games have been good for this. Agreed.

haven't played the witcher 2 (only tried witcher 1 a bit but it wasn't my cup of tea to be honest) so my example is more of an old one but still i think it's relevant, hong kong and kowloon in shenmue 2, there were so many things there happening in the cities, people living their lives according to their own individual schedules, in a word, awesome.

[aries1001]

Allan has been the most friendly, non offensive and just polite Bioware employee I have seen on the forums. (others have been too . however, Allan just likes to take about games and likes to ask our question about games). If a friendly dev like Allan get this sort of treatment on the forums, I can certainly understand very well why Casey Hudson and Mac Walters stay away from the forums.

Also, please note that Allan S. is a QA (quality assurance) guy, he has no influence on how tge game is made, he just plays broken games, so we don't have to.

Also this:
Bioware has never made believable areas or ares that simulates real life - sandbox games like Skyrim and Assasin's Creed do this. Bioware's strongpoints are characters, dialogue and story. However, I think that maybe I would like to see more ambient sounds, .e.g. hear the summing of birds, the rippling of water etc.

[Yrkoon]

slimgrin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

What are people's thoughts on interactivity with the environment?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Elder Scroll games, but it seems like part of what a lot of people like is simply that everything is interactive (spoons, forks, etc.), and when they grab that orange and throw it at the guy's head and he goes "Hey" they laugh and maybe think "cool."

This might be something better suited for an open sandbox game which BioWare's games really aren't, but I was having a talk with a co-worker about Skyrim and was postulating some ideas about what subtle stuff exists that players may not explicitly notice or recognize, but might help them feel more engaged in the game setting.

It's been a loooooooooong time since I last played it, but I was wondering this because I think it is something I enjoyed about the Ultima VII games (among everything else that exists in those games...)

You know something? I'm glad you posted, because good level design has nothing to do with throwing oranges...

He never claimed it did.

He was branching off   to another aspect of discussion, after the current one had run its course.  Nothing wrong with that, and I, for one,  welcome this new tangent as its something that's not frequently discussed here.

[Countess Cutlass]

slimgrin wrote...
This post is so pure Bioware. Ignore what the feedback really is, demean the person making said criticism, and spin it. Don't forget the spin. In the rare event that you are receptive, let me spell it out for you: level design in Bioware games has become about as creative as navigating my way to work. It's predictable, generic, and boring. It lack any sense of organic space whatsoever. You guys don't create lived-in and believable areas, you create video game levels. Still. And that is the problem. 

eyeroll.gif  

Awww, u mad, bro?  Allan is one of the nicest people on these forums.  His post was cool, respectful and asked for some genuine feedback.  You make a good point, but I'm also pretty sure one of the quickest ways to be ignored by the Bioware dev team is to post hostile semi-attacks like what you just posted.  It's just this weird feeling that I get from my knowledge of "people skills".

[John Epler]

simfamSP wrote...

Other good examples:

Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

I greatly enjoyed Deus Ex:HR - it was one of my favourite games of the past year, and it gave me that good ol' Deus Ex feel, which was something I had reservations about.

That being said, one issue I -did- have with their level design was vents. Not that vents existed, of course, but that there were air vents that would connect two rooms together without any other apparent reason for their existence. It was a minor enough issue in an otherwise fantastic game that it didn't really bother me, but it's a good microcosm of the whole 'believable environments' thing, and particularly jarring in that it was the single example of an obviously 'gamey' level element in an otherwise believable construction.

It's something we're paying attention to going forward - making our levels feel less like linear spaces constructed solely for the purpose of being 'part of a game', and more like actual, believable spaces that just happen to work well for various game purposes. Part of this will involve more collaboration in the earlier stages of the process, but part of it is also (likely) to involve building spaces for reasons other than narrative. Why does that cave exist? Because it's a cave - that's what caves do. It can have content inside, certainly, but it doesn't need to be attached to a specific plot. Narrative is more than just conversations and cutscenes, after all - Bethesda games are excellent examples of this.

[AkiKishi]

John Epler wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Other good examples:

Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

I greatly enjoyed Deus Ex:HR - it was one of my favourite games of the past year, and it gave me that good ol' Deus Ex feel, which was something I had reservations about.

That being said, one issue I -did- have with their level design was vents. Not that vents existed, of course, but that there were air vents that would connect two rooms together without any other apparent reason for their existence. It was a minor enough issue in an otherwise fantastic game that it didn't really bother me, but it's a good microcosm of the whole 'believable environments' thing, and particularly jarring in that it was the single example of an obviously 'gamey' level element in an otherwise believable construction.

It's something we're paying attention to going forward - making our levels feel less like linear spaces constructed solely for the purpose of being 'part of a game', and more like actual, believable spaces that just happen to work well for various game purposes. Part of this will involve more collaboration in the earlier stages of the process, but part of it is also (likely) to involve building spaces for reasons other than narrative. Why does that cave exist? Because it's a cave - that's what caves do. It can have content inside, certainly, but it doesn't need to be attached to a specific plot. Narrative is more than just conversations and cutscenes, after all - Bethesda games are excellent examples of this.

First and foremost it's a game. While a real building would have many more air vents, that would make things too easy and defeat the purpose of looking for them as alterative routes.
Like everything it's a balance. A realistic space that does nothing is worse than a semi realistic space that has a game related purpose.
Also the more real you make something, the more real it needs to be in order to appear realistic. HR strikes a good balance there between reality and gameplay.

If you start making some aspects of DA3 realistic, then it will just make things like furniture not breaking or lack of enviromental effects that much more glaring. The effort needs to be spread over all aspects of the game, especially combat which is the core of Dragon Age.

[TEWR]

John Epler wrote...

I greatly enjoyed Deus Ex:HR - it was one of my favourite games of the past year, and it gave me that good ol' Deus Ex feel, which was something I had reservations about.

That being said, one issue I -did- have with their level design was vents. Not that vents existed, of course, but that there were air vents that would connect two rooms together without any other apparent reason for their existence. It was a minor enough issue in an otherwise fantastic game that it didn't really bother me, but it's a good microcosm of the whole 'believable environments' thing, and particularly jarring in that it was the single example of an obviously 'gamey' level element in an otherwise believable construction.

It's something we're paying attention to going forward - making our levels feel less like linear spaces constructed solely for the purpose of being 'part of a game', and more like actual, believable spaces that just happen to work well for various game purposes. Part of this will involve more collaboration in the earlier stages of the process, but part of it is also (likely) to involve building spaces for reasons other than narrative. Why does that cave exist? Because it's a cave - that's what caves do. It can have content inside, certainly, but it doesn't need to be attached to a specific plot. Narrative is more than just conversations and cutscenes, after all - Bethesda games are excellent examples of this.

FFXII.

Seriously, that game is probably the pinnacle of level design for a world that's trying to be both open and sectionized. And based on Bioware's recent comments on exploration, that's exactly what you guys are striving for.

I will keep recommending you guys look at FFXII for exploration and other things. It's just that good. I refer you to the map of Ivalice that I posted earlier:

http://media.giantbo...e-World-Map.jpg

For some reason, the laptop I'm using won't let me copy the image here, so there's the link to said image.

One of my favorite things was the fact that you could visit the Nabreus Deadlands and the Necrohol of Nabudis. They were two areas that belonged to the fallen kingdom of Nabradia and that had a story purpose, but weren't mandatory for the plot. And your companions would tell you a little about the area.

I'd like to see this in DA as well. If I want to go wandering around to say "The Hall of Kings" that's waaaay on the other side of the map, I'd like to be able to do that. And I should be able to learn about "The Hall of Kings" from a companion or NPC that knows about it.

[John Epler]

Oh, I've played FFXII. And it does a lot of things well - the exploration is top-notch, and certainly worth a look.

I still like to use LOTRO as my 'go to' example of exploration being done well. Plenty of places in that game that you can visit despite them having little to no narrative importance, but if you can see it then you can go there.

[Sylvius the Mad]

John Epler wrote...

It's something we're paying attention to going forward - making our levels feel less like linear spaces constructed solely for the purpose of being 'part of a game', and more like actual, believable spaces that just happen to work well for various game purposes. Part of this will involve more collaboration in the earlier stages of the process, but part of it is also (likely) to involve building spaces for reasons other than narrative. Why does that cave exist? Because it's a cave - that's what caves do. It can have content inside, certainly, but it doesn't need to be attached to a specific plot.

THANK YOU!

I just started a NWN2 playthrough, and I noticed in Highcliff a terrific example of what you're describing.  The party is dropped into the area by the docks, and the only other game content is up the steps into the town.  But just past the base of the steps there is a beach.  There's nothing on the beach, and there's no reason to go to the beach, but the beach is there, and it's explorable.

Without that beach, Highcliff would feel less like a real environment and more like a game level.  But that beach, which has no game-relevance at all, does exist, dramatically improving the area.

Narrative is more than just conversations and cutscenes, after all

I've been saying this for years.  This is the first time I can recall any of you agreeing with me.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 25 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[TEWR]

John Epler wrote...

Oh, I've played FFXII. And it does a lot of things well - the exploration is top-notch, and certainly worth a look.

I still like to use LOTRO as my 'go to' example of exploration being done well. Plenty of places in that game that you can visit despite them having little to no narrative importance, but if you can see it then you can go there.

I've never played LotR Online, so I can't compare.

But the fact that you have played FFXII and agree that it's something to be examined made me do a mini happy dance of happiness and left me plastered with a huge smile. 

[AkiKishi]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Oh, I've played FFXII. And it does a lot of things well - the exploration is top-notch, and certainly worth a look.

I still like to use LOTRO as my 'go to' example of exploration being done well. Plenty of places in that game that you can visit despite them having little to no narrative importance, but if you can see it then you can go there.

The best in the series . Guess they could not beat that and made FFXIII . Talking about starting to go in a new direction..................................To much change can be well; just to much change. Allthough you need it to keep a franchise fresh and crispy. Though nuts to crack here.

Made up for it though somewhat as far as I could see while playing the demo for FFXIII-2.

FFXIII was a knee jerk reaction to FFXII. Funny thing about FFXII is it's more popular with the non Japanese audience.
I could never get on with FFXIII I can't really say there was much of anything wrong with it that did not come down to opinion but like ME2 to ME3 it felt more like a step back.

My favourites are still X and IX but I rate XII very highly.

It's not like FFXIII is a realy radical change under the surface. Strip away the 5 star rating and put the pause on select back into the ATB and it would be the same. It's the speed that really throws you off at first, especally when you are trying for 5 stars. Very similiar to DA2 in that respect, sped up tactical combat feels uncomfortable like it's pulling in two different directions.

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Oh, I've played FFXII. And it does a lot of things well - the exploration is top-notch, and certainly worth a look.

I still like to use LOTRO as my 'go to' example of exploration being done well. Plenty of places in that game that you can visit despite them having little to no narrative importance, but if you can see it then you can go there.

I've never played LotR Online, so I can't compare.

But the fact that you have played FFXII and agree that it's something to be examined made me do a mini happy dance of happiness and left me plastered with a huge smile. 

It's free to play so worth a look just for research purposes.

[esper]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Oh, I've played FFXII. And it does a lot of things well - the exploration is top-notch, and certainly worth a look.

I still like to use LOTRO as my 'go to' example of exploration being done well. Plenty of places in that game that you can visit despite them having little to no narrative importance, but if you can see it then you can go there.

The best in the series . Guess they could not beat that and made FFXIII . Talking about starting to go in a new direction..................................To much change can be well; just to much change. Allthough you need it to keep a franchise fresh and crispy. Though nuts to crack here.

Made up for it though somewhat as far as I could see while playing the demo for FFXIII-2.

FXII was the game that turned me off Final Fantasy so much that I am not even picking up Final Fantasy XIII-2 even though I love crazy time travel adventures that makes little sense.

The best Final Fantasy is in my opionion VI if just for the way the 'end of the world' concept was done there.  My most favorite IX because it was the one I played first and X have the most distinctive story. 

But XII was just... meh... it bored me so much that I never got further than the evil empires capital.

I must admit I like the 'hubs...'  I wouldn't mind them being larger or having caves that are only there for the sake of being caves, but games that focus too much on exploration and an open world always makes it feels like I am missing playing the game wrong, by not wanting to defeat giant boss monster number 17.

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

But XII was just... meh... it bored me so much that I never got further than the evil empires capital

You really should've moved past Archades. You come to learn that the empire isn't as despicable as they're portrayed. Larsa shows this at first, but there are hints here and there that also show this.

I loved FFXII because of its politically oriented story. Even when supernatural elements came into play, they didn't diminish the political aspect. Rather, they magnified it IMO.

On topic.... um....

*ponders. Then makes hand wavey motion*

...caves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 06:14 .

[AkiKishi]

esper wrote...
FXII was the game that turned me off Final Fantasy so much that I am not even picking up Final Fantasy XIII-2 even though I love crazy time travel adventures that makes little sense.

The best Final Fantasy is in my opionion VI if just for the way the 'end of the world' concept was done there.  My most favorite IX because it was the one I played first and X have the most distinctive story. 

But XII was just... meh... it bored me so much that I never got further than the evil empires capital.

I must admit I like the 'hubs...'  I wouldn't mind them being larger or having caves that are only there for the sake of being caves, but games that focus too much on exploration and an open world always makes it feels like I am missing playing the game wrong, by not wanting to defeat giant boss monster number 17.

Thing I've learned from playing every single Final Fantasy (backwards from X) was that just because you dislike one it has no particular bearing on the franchise. They are all very different.FFXIII and FFXII are about as different as you can get. I personally never liked XIII , but I really like XIII-2.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

esper wrote...

But XII was just... meh... it bored me so much that I never got further than the evil empires capital

You really should've moved past Archades. You come to learn that the empire isn't as despicable as they're portrayed. Larsa shows this at first, but there are hints here and there that also show this.

I loved FFXII because of its politically oriented story. Even when supernatural elements came into play, they didn't diminish the political aspect. Rather, they magnified it IMO.

I am failry sure the Empire isn't a decipiable, but they were still final fantasy Evil Empire (that is all right, it's a tradition in a final fantasy game.).  Larsa seemed a decent guy. It is not the magic nor the political. The bad  guy was so obvious the bad guy (even if I admit that it is likely he could be controlled by something, this was a final fantasy after all)
The main characthers off the game was boring me. If I don't care about my main party at all it doesn't matter. And I didn't really feel the politics. If I should have felt it I should have been allowed to travel to the Evil Empire's rival Empire (I don't remember the names) and not just meet a representive.

There were not a single person in the game I really cared about exepct Larsa and Basch and sadly their screen time was limited. It felt to me like the point of the game was going off the main path and finding big side quest monsters to kill. Which just wasn't fun.

If I want exploration and monster killing I am playing Etrian Odyssey (which I love). I am not playing final fantasy and certainly not Dragon Age.

Modifié par esper, 25 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[TEWR]

esper wrote...



I am failry sure the Empire isn't a decipiable, but they were still final fantasy Evil Empire (that is all right, it's a tradition in a final fantasy game.).  Larsa seemed a decent guy. It is not the magic nor the political. The bad  guy was so obvious the bad guy (even if I admit that it is likely he could be controlled by something, this was a final fantasy after all)

Actually, no not at all. Vayne Solidor wasn't being controlled by anything for why he was doing what he was doing.

And that's all I have to say about that, as I don't want to be spoilerific.

The main characthers off the game was boring me. If I don't care about my main party at all it doesn't matter. And I didn't really feel the politics. If I should have felt it I should have been allowed to travel to the Evil Empire's rival Empire (I don't remember the names) and not just meet a representive.

There were not a single person in the game I really cared about exepct Larsa and Basch and sadly their screen time was limited. It felt to me like the point of the game was going off the main path and finding big side quest monsters to kill. Which just wasn't fun. 

I enjoyed the companions. Even Vaan had his moments, though I preferred Basch over Vaan and often play as him in the gameplay.

The political aspects are there however. You don't need to travel to Rozarria to see it.

Now... Exploration: Well I'd like to be able to enter the Deep Roads and traverse them if I want and they should connect to other areas.

So say I'm in Starkhaven. I should be able to take my ragtag bunch of misfits through an old mine shaft that can eventually lead me to Ferelden, Nevarra, or Orlais depending on which direction I take.

And if this is done, respawning enemies should be present as well, so the Deep Roads don't just become empty places filled with nothing.

The Zertinan Caverns did this somewhat, as I talked about earlier.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

esper wrote...


I am failry sure the Empire isn't a decipiable, but they were still final fantasy Evil Empire (that is all right, it's a tradition in a final fantasy game.).  Larsa seemed a decent guy. It is not the magic nor the political. The bad  guy was so obvious the bad guy (even if I admit that it is likely he could be controlled by something, this was a final fantasy after all)

Actually, no not at all. Vayne Solidor wasn't being controlled by anything for why he was doing what he was doing.

And that's all I have to say about that.

The main characthers off the game was boring me. If I don't care about my main party at all it doesn't matter. And I didn't really feel the politics. If I should have felt it I should have been allowed to travel to the Evil Empire's rival Empire (I don't remember the names) and not just meet a representive.

There were not a single person in the game I really cared about exepct Larsa and Basch and sadly their screen time was limited. It felt to me like the point of the game was going off the main path and finding big side quest monsters to kill. Which just wasn't fun. 

I enjoyed the companions. Even Vaan had his moments, though I preferred Basch over Vaan and often play as him in the gameplay.

The political aspects are there however. You don't need to travel to Rozarria to see it.

The politcal aspect were there, but not enough considering that it was the only thing the game could have had going for it. If it was too have been just relatively interesting I needed to feel the tension of being in the middle of two almost warring Empire much more than I did.

Vaan was... I still don't see the point of him and Penelope.

[AkiKishi]

esper wrote...

Vaan was... I still don't see the point of him and Penelope.

Every day folks caught up in events that change the world. Penelope makes a heck a mage in the long term.

The problem with FFXII is that you spend a lot of time away from the plot. And the story gets diluted as a result. It's common with TES and FO too. It's a side effect of the open world. Of course the open world has advantages of it's own.
I remeber the first time I played FFX and got to the calm lands I was overwhelmed by having so many non plot related things to do. By the time I played FFXII I was more used to that.  

This is why I'm wary about this openess in DA3. For Bioware that relies on characters and story it's not exactly a natural fit.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 avril 2012 - 08:05 .

[Beerfish]

BG1 was just about perfect in this regard. some key places you knew were priority and that you had to explore but a bunch of purely optional exploring and some nice little quests that you didn't find out about without going onto a map and exploring it all.