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Exploration: what we want.


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#101
Takamori The Templar

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

John Epler wrote...

To be fair, Hythloth was that way because people found it to be too difficult - so they let you skip out halfway through. Originally, you would've needed to do the whole thing. Which doesn't really negate your point, of course. And, I may be misremembering - it's been a while since I read that article.

The puzzle to get to the second half of the dungeon was diabolically challenging, I'll admit.  That wasn't a good feature.

Regardless of why they built the dungeon like that, they ended up with a terrific dungeon.


Guess I'm the only one here that enjoy getting tortured by the dungeon >:

#102
esper

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the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Nothing like going through someones dresser and taking their jewely or even clothes and then being told how awesome your are because you gave them a weed (Which only cost you one 1 currency)...

I ripped off every list object of value in Redcliff castle. Eamon still insisted on making me the champion. B)


I imagine my warden going: Those things, nah. The undead stole them. Don't you know demons like shiny objects?

#103
AngryFrozenWater

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the_one_54321 wrote...

John Epler wrote...
It works well in Skyrim and similar games (for many of the reasons that AFW stated), but it always felt a little odd in JRPGs when I'd just start breaking into every house in town, stealing their items and having them tell me the very personal problems that were afflicting them at that moment. It's a genre convention, and it works for the genre - but I always wanted someone to tell me off for doing it.

I agree that the "I can go into any stranger's house without consequence" approach has played out its usefulness in games. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to enter all places, but the world should react or restrict in a way that makes sense.

In TES games you can see that at work. If you enter a home and you are not welcome then the NPC will tell you so or call the guards when you steal their stuff. It is still not perfect, but it is getting better in each TES game.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 avril 2012 - 10:13 .


#104
Pzykozis

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...
In TES games you can see that at work. If you enter a home and you are not welcome then the NPC will tell you or call the gards when you steal their stuff. It is still not perfect, but it is getting better in each TES game.


Until... Buckets

But then thats another reason to love Skyrim.

I'm more of an explorer to find strange vistas and the like, though i will essentially explore everything I can..

I prefer the singular / fewer more content leaden things in comparison to a large quanitiy of boring stuff, identikit houses are pretty painful to build as well as to run through..

Give me the stormy tower on a cliff that you have to navigate treacherous terrain and stuff but eventually reaching and perhaps solving a puzzle or whatever to get inside, culminating in an impressive vista aybe a few scraps of treasure or whatever is far more interesting to me.

Or since it's not used enough, finding out you can actually walk through the waterfal and finding a forgotten temple or some such.

Priceless moments, though to a certain extent hindered by fidelity.

#105
Sylvius the Mad

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Painting a picture of a door on a wall, without the ability to open or close it is still just a wall and not a door. This kind or irritates me slightly in games.

I'd rather this that DA2's giant buildings with no doors at all.  There wre buildings in Kirkwall you could walk completely around, and they had windows in them, but no doors.  None.

#106
Dejajeva

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All I want is if I can see the ruins of a tower in the distance, I want to be able to go and check it out. I think Skyrim was great for this, actually. I don't need all the thousands and thousands of miles and nonsense, but I really liked walking down a path and seeing a creepy abandoned building and being able to go pick around at it. But I like doing that in real life, so maybe I'm just weird.

Also, I really missed not being able to see Kirkwall in the distance while I was on Sundermount or The Wounded Coast. I mean, Kirkwall was pretty big right? And you weren't really that far off were you? They didn't feel connected to me. If I'm heading to Val Royeaux I want to be able to see the towers of the city in the distance, or the spire or something. But talking about spires just makes me think of Fable. But you know, I could see the damn spire from every single place in the whole of Fable. I liked that.

#107
Dragoonlordz

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Painting a picture of a door on a wall, without the ability to open or close it is still just a wall and not a door. This kind or irritates me slightly in games.

I'd rather this that DA2's giant buildings with no doors at all.  There wre buildings in Kirkwall you could walk completely around, and they had windows in them, but no doors.  None.


There was (for me) just to many elements such as this. Like said earlier if you continue to put the world in second place in constant decline vs investment in characters (companions, cameo's and select few NPC persona's) then the games suffer greatly. The world matters as much as the companions. DA2 left a massive gaping and bleeding wound where the world immersion should of been and lore based on the places you visit, the things you see and do in such but they tried to make up for it with few interesting characters which can never bandage that wound (like sticking a band aid on your healthy arm when your knee is whats bleeding).

John can keep doing his good work on the characters but the ones handling the world elements need to up their game a lot imho. They should be trying to rival the good work on the characters with the world immersion and lore element such as aspects like exploration, detail, variation (day/night cycles, wildlife, weather, non static lifeless NPCs, locations) plus impact and interaction within enviroments not play second fiddle to the ones working on characters within that world. Only when both elements, world and characters are on equal footing will the games be truly great.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 avril 2012 - 10:57 .


#108
HenchxNarf

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Kingdoms of Amalur.

Exploration and open-world, but still small and focused enough that the main plot never falls by the wayside.


That would be an awfully big world lol However, that game is amazing.

I don't know if I would want DA to get THAT big in terms of world, because then you border on Skyrim territory which is TOO FREAKING BIG. And it takes forever to find stuff.

#109
kingjezza

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Ted the caver!

If DA3 had a mission even half as intriguing and creepy as that story I would probably buy it for that alone.

I think I'm one of the few who likes the deep roads, it's a bit of a drag but that makes it feel all the more rewarding when you do it.

#110
MechaGaiden

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I'd like a good amount of areas to explore as long as each area has enough characterization to make it stand out. I really don't care for games that have mega-huge world maps that feel too spread out, but Kirkwall in DA2 felt rather claustrophobic. The final blow to Kirkwall in DA2 was that it never felt like a living and breathing city that defined the game; rather it felt like a reasonably well-thought out city that belonged in a much larger game.

Ideally, I'd like to see a cross between the scope of DA2 and DA:O. I'd be fine with a world map smaller than the one in DA:O as long as each area is rich with content. Many times, less can be more when it comes to the size of a game world. I want DA:O to return to the tightly written drama of the first DA:O which struck an excellent balance between linear RPGs and open-world RPGs like the Elder Scrolls. Ideally the player should be given enough room to frolic around the lands doing quests or whatever it is they wish while never losing sight of the main storyline.

#111
John Epler

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kingjezza wrote...

Ted the caver!

If DA3 had a mission even half as intriguing and creepy as that story I would probably buy it for that alone.

I think I'm one of the few who likes the deep roads, it's a bit of a drag but that makes it feel all the more rewarding when you do it.


I don't think there was anything wrong with the Deep Roads, but I think we could do a better job of it.

And, honestly, Ted the Caver still disturbs me to this day. That, plus the Descent, means that caves terrify me.

#112
Jamie9

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I'm pretty happy with how BioWare treats environments in Dragon Age (apart from DA2's copy paste caves obviously).

In fact, I liked Kirkwall. I just wish they'd have changed it a bit for each act. If they had done that I think there would have been much less criticism.

Made it look grimier, in disrepair by Act 3.

In short: Keep doing what you're doing, and do a little bit more ;)

#113
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The deep roads, the thaigs populated or abandoned, the hallways and the temple in the lost thaig; I loved everything about it.

There is so much more to explore in there. I would really like to see more of it (and the dwarves) in DA3.
Kal Sharok being in Orlais would be great to start with............................

#114
addiction21

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John Epler wrote...

kingjezza wrote...

Ted the caver!

If DA3 had a mission even half as intriguing and creepy as that story I would probably buy it for that alone.

I think I'm one of the few who likes the deep roads, it's a bit of a drag but that makes it feel all the more rewarding when you do it.


I don't think there was anything wrong with the Deep Roads, but I think we could do a better job of it.


More place like that and more to them. I can still remember that first DAO playthru and it went mages tower, Deep Roads then the Bercillian forest. Going from epic tunnels to a forest where I am pretty much stuck on narrow paths thru me for a loop.
I can get kind of being on the paths with not much room like the deep roads but I hit a forest and I just felt it needs to be more open. I felt like I was back in the tower or Deep Roads. Exploration should fit the enviroment.  Sometimes a wide open area is great. Using natural obstacles like a river or raven to herd players to certain points is okay with me.

From what I understand a few were put off with the gauntlet atmosphere of the Deep Roads. It could of used some more breaks and interactions but then again it was a blight and the Darkspawn are pretty much kings down there now so I understand that.

Hell I could do a whole game of dungeon crawling thru the Deep Roads. Orzammar to Kal-Sharok and whatever could be thrown at us inbetween.

#115
HenchxNarf

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The deep roads, the thaigs populated or abandoned, the hallways and the temple in the lost thaig; I loved everything about it.

There is so much more to explore in there. I would really like to see more of it (and the dwarves) in DA3.
Kal Sharok being in Orlais would be great to start with............................


Orlais and Starkhaven pls!

Maybe Rivain too.

#116
AngryFrozenWater

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I think BW's main goal should be to get rid of the map which connects all their locations. Here are some thoughts on that.

I am a fan of the open world concept, but that does not work very well for DA. It looks like the DA world is a collection of custom made stages. Each location is a stage on which a single story plays. The cool thing about that is that the stages can be tailored to the specific needs of the story.

However, the approach of custom made stages also has its disadvantages. You can only travel using a map or a story event to go from one place to another. Random encounters are relatively expensive to create, because they too have to use a similar technique. Even a day/night cycle has to be simulated by using a day and night map. Also, the stages are usually closed when their story ends. All this gives an artificial impression to those who are more used to an open world. It also prevents the illusion of exploration.

Exploration works best in a huge open world. But to create an open world, it has to have benefits to the game. It also requires a different kind of dedication. To implement an open world properly it has to have more advantages than just exploration. In TES games, where NPCs live their little lives in the world that world needs houses with beds, tables, chairs and food to allow them to sleep and eat. It needs chests and treasure to loot from. The world needs roads to allow them to travel. The world needs inns to allow them to gossip. The world also needs villages, but also space outside that in which creatures live. Those creatures have schedules themselves. Etc. That is not only designed to make the world feel alive, but it allows the player to be a thief, an assassin or a hunter and so on. In short, TES games implement that huge world to allow the player to have more freedom.

I am not sure if that is going to work for DA. That is because DA is centered around stories. It is not designed to do whatever the player wants. The stages on which the stories play are designed to accommodate the stories and nothing else. And that's fine, because great stories is what the players expect from BW games.

In BW games NPCs are rather static. They do what they have to do and nothing more. An NPC that gossips on the street can only do that and does nothing more. A merchant doesn't leave the counter. A soldier fights and is gone after the battle. Monsters are only there for the purpose of a fight as part of a specific story. Again, that's fine. After all, the story is the main focus.

But I can understand that people who are also used to open world games feel that a lot of that is artificial. Whether you like it or not games are becoming more realistic. BW games do that by focusing on acting, facial animations, dialogue, etc., and they make progress in those areas. I think they should not forget those areas, but at the same time they should not close the door for exploration.

In a DA game players expect more unique locations and I think that is a result of the game playing in a closed world. In DA2 not only were the locations reused, the locations were changed a bit. At one time a room was inaccessible, the other time a hallway was closed off, etc. That gave me a constant feeling of dèjá vu and I was disorientated.

To improve on that one can either create unique locations and go on like BW always have done, or they can connect all those locations together and get rid of the map. That is more in reach than BW thinks. Look at a single location in the open air. Only a part is accessible. Nature at the border there still needs to be created, even though you cannot walk there. That's just to give the illusion that it is part of the world. Now imagine that you position two of those locations together. Not only can you move from one location to the other, but you can get rid of the space in between, because the space used to give the illusion of being part of the world is not required there any more. The more of those locations you join, the more effective that becomes. It also avoids loading screens. It does mean that loading has to be done in the background. A lot of games manage to do background loading very effectively - even on the consoles.

So I think that can be a compromise. TW1 and TW2 are not true open world games either. They give the illusion of being one, by gluing the locations into something that fakes an open world. You still cannot do everything you want, like in a Gothic or TES game, but it got rid of BW's map used to visit the locations. You feel you can go anywhere. Random encounters do not occur because you picked another location on the map. These occur because they are part of the world that you've just visited. The NPCs do not live their little lives as complete as in TES games, but they at least walk, talk, or perform some kind of craft, etc. TW2 is still not a true seamless world because new chapters of the story open up new (large) areas. However, it feels like one and it feel more natural. If you see something you can go there. Such a world can give the player the illusion of exploration.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 avril 2012 - 12:19 .


#117
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HenchxNarf wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The deep roads, the thaigs populated or abandoned, the hallways and the temple in the lost thaig; I loved everything about it.

There is so much more to explore in there. I would really like to see more of it (and the dwarves) in DA3.
Kal Sharok being in Orlais would be great to start with............................


Orlais and Starkhaven pls!

Maybe Rivain too.


You're right Image IPB some Starkhaven too. Want to know how Sebastian is doing over there. Did he get his crown back?

#118
HenchxNarf

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

You're right Image IPB some Starkhaven too. Want to know how Sebastian is doing over there. Did he get his crown back?


Or to see if, you know, he still wants to kill you or not lol

My Rogue and Mage Hawke couldn't kill Anders, because I was pissed that I couldn't get his trophy for loyalty/rivalry.

But my Warrior Hawke said eff this *Stab*

Edit: whoops, wrong name

Modifié par HenchxNarf, 12 avril 2012 - 12:27 .


#119
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HenchxNarf wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

You're right Image IPB some Starkhaven too. Want to know how Sebastian is doing over there. Did he get his crown back?


Or to see if, you know, he still wants to kill you or not lol

My Rogue and Mage Hawke couldn't kill Sebastian, because I was pissed that I couldn't get his trophy for loyalty/rivalry.

But my Warrior Hawke said eff this *Stab*


Could be an interesting encounter: the new PC of DA3 goes to Kirkwall and wittnesses an encounter between Hawke and Sebastian for better or for worseImage IPB.

#120
Maria Caliban

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the_one_54321 wrote...

John Epler wrote...
It works well in Skyrim and similar games (for many of the reasons that AFW stated), but it always felt a little odd in JRPGs when I'd just start breaking into every house in town, stealing their items and having them tell me the very personal problems that were afflicting them at that moment. It's a genre convention, and it works for the genre - but I always wanted someone to tell me off for doing it.

I agree that the "I can go into any stranger's house without consequence" approach has played out its usefulness in games. Not that you shouldn't be allowed to enter all places, but the world should react or restrict in a way that makes sense.

I'm going to disagree. If there are houses I *can* go into, there should be some way for me to do so without being sent to jail or simply attacked on sight by NPCs.

In a non-party game, I'd say the sneak skill/ability would be the way to go.

Brockololly wrote...

Especially being a Warden, the Deep Roads are supposed to a bit of a grind as you descend into the heart of darkness basically.

I don't believe for a second that the Deep Roads are *supposed* to be a grind.

The Deep Roads might be terrifying, mysterious, labyrinthine, dangerous, or unpredictable, buy not a grind. Tedium is not something you try to evoke.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 avril 2012 - 04:16 .


#121
Allan Schumacher

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Pzykozis wrote...

Until... Buckets

But then thats another reason to love Skyrim.



The QA group likes to get together periodically to discuss past and current RPGs, and I found Skyrim interesting.  I haven't actually played it yet, because I didn't really enjoy Oblivion, but what I found is that it seems maybe not all bugs are evil.

A lot of people seem to enjoy posting some of the insane (and hilarious) stuff, and it almost seems like some level of errors can really help make the exploration people find entertaining, even if for not the "right reason."  Obviously I'm not going to stop doing my job any time soon, but I'm curious what others think?

#122
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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Until... Buckets

But then thats another reason to love Skyrim.



The QA group likes to get together periodically to discuss past and current RPGs, and I found Skyrim interesting.  I haven't actually played it yet, because I didn't really enjoy Oblivion, but what I found is that it seems maybe not all bugs are evil.

A lot of people seem to enjoy posting some of the insane (and hilarious) stuff, and it almost seems like some level of errors can really help make the exploration people find entertaining, even if for not the "right reason."  Obviously I'm not going to stop doing my job any time soon, but I'm curious what others think?


Stuff like that can really put a big fat Image IPB on your face. I for one cannot stop doing it again and again for some time when it shows up.

Try Morrowind btw; the best of the three.

#123
addiction21

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Until... Buckets

But then thats another reason to love Skyrim.



The QA group likes to get together periodically to discuss past and current RPGs, and I found Skyrim interesting.  I haven't actually played it yet, because I didn't really enjoy Oblivion, but what I found is that it seems maybe not all bugs are evil.

A lot of people seem to enjoy posting some of the insane (and hilarious) stuff, and it almost seems like some level of errors can really help make the exploration people find entertaining, even if for not the "right reason."  Obviously I'm not going to stop doing my job any time soon, but I'm curious what others think?


I don't know if I would call it a bug but more of a exploit. Since using the the bucket obstructs the NPC's sight so you can steal willy nilly.

But that comes with the territory of those games. Finding a some strange thing that the devs and QA team just never thought about or could of fixed. These sorts of things happen in games so large and diverse like Skyrim. I still remember in Daggerfall being able to wait inside a store till night and the shopkeep would leave. So I could take everything I wanted and then sell it back to him in the morning.

#124
Allan Schumacher

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Try Morrowind btw; the best of the three.


I did play Morrowind and enjoyed it. Though I got pulled away from it about a month or two and when I tried to return, the journal system didn't help and I had no real clue what was going on anymore so I never finished it.

But this was probably after 40ish hours of gameplay haha.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 12 avril 2012 - 04:54 .


#125
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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Try Morrowind btw; the best of the three.


I did play Morrowind and enjoyed it. Though I got pulled away from it about a month or two and when I tried to return, the journal system didn't help and I had no real clue what was going on anymore so I never finished it.

But this was probably after 40ish hours of gameplay haha.


Can feel you there Image IPB.
Started on Skyrim and switched onto the witcher because couldn't get the feel for Skyrim right now.

The Witcher does it for me at the moment.