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Exploration: what we want.


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#126
Sanunes

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Try Morrowind btw; the best of the three.


I did play Morrowind and enjoyed it. Though I got pulled away from it about a month or two and when I tried to return, the journal system didn't help and I had no real clue what was going on anymore so I never finished it.

But this was probably after 40ish hours of gameplay haha.


I found myself feeling very similar to all the Elder Scroll games and the two new Fallout games, once I stopped playing I never returned to them for I had no idea where I left off and had no desire to start a new character.

#127
Allan Schumacher

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addiction21 wrote...

I don't know if I would call it a bug but more of a exploit. Since using the the bucket obstructs the NPC's sight so you can steal willy nilly.

But that comes with the territory of those games. Finding a some strange thing that the devs and QA team just never thought about or could of fixed. These sorts of things happen in games so large and diverse like Skyrim. I still remember in Daggerfall being able to wait inside a store till night and the shopkeep would leave. So I could take everything I wanted and then sell it back to him in the morning.


I'd still technically call it a bug but that will just turn into a semantic argument and doesn't do much.  I think we can agree it probably wasn't what the system designer envisioned.

I have less of an issue for stuff like this because it's a single player, story focused campaign.  If you don't like stuff like that, then it's well within your means to not do it!  Haha.

#128
Dejajeva

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Try Morrowind btw; the best of the three.


I did play Morrowind and enjoyed it. Though I got pulled away from it about a month or two and when I tried to return, the journal system didn't help and I had no real clue what was going on anymore so I never finished it.

But this was probably after 40ish hours of gameplay haha.


Can feel you there Image IPB.
Started on Skyrim and switched onto the witcher because couldn't get the feel for Skyrim right now.

The Witcher does it for me at the moment.


I'm jealous. I started Skyrim and promptly got overwhelmed...but I've never been able to get into any other games like Dragon Age- except for Fable, which I've washed my hands of. Even Mass Effect doesn't interest me. I'd rather *gasp* play MW3. :)

#129
addiction21

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Ya I guess semantics. http://extreme-gamer...ewdiablo/cheats Diablo dupe
When I think of a exploit. That bucket is "a creative use of game mechanics"

Either should be fixed but I also understand that is just a impossibility. Especially for the Bethesade games. So many things can be done that the limited QA team can not cover. A game goes out to a million players and its just a fact they will find their own bugs, glitches, exp[loits etc etc etc...

And you are right that is one of those you do it only if you want to do it.

Modifié par addiction21, 12 avril 2012 - 05:18 .


#130
Allan Schumacher

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Haha it's true. A game goes out to a million people and they all play an hour, and they've collectively spent more time in the game than we're able to haha.

#131
Brockololly

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
A lot of people seem to enjoy posting some of the insane (and hilarious) stuff, and it almost seems like some level of errors can really help make the exploration people find entertaining, even if for not the "right reason."  Obviously I'm not going to stop doing my job any time soon, but I'm curious what others think?


I think its more the nature of basically doing crazy stuff and testing the game to see what its limits are and whether the game will react. So, if you go around putting buckets on people's heads, will they react? On one hand they're not, because, well, they're letting you put a bucket on their head. But, putting a bucket on their head is obscuring their vision, thus letting you steal, which really is another form of reactivity.

Its like that with most games- testing the systems to see what you can get away with and how the world around your player character will react to you doing crazy things. Like how in GTA games you'll almost inevitably go on some random civilian killing spree just to see what happens- and soon enough you'll have the military coming after you. Reactivity.

#132
Allan Schumacher

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I don't think it can be boiled down to just reactivity. People laugh when giants send guys flying 4000 feet into the horizon. Although I suppose it is technically reactivity.... haha

#133
Arthur Cousland

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Some bugs can be entertaining, but it's the ones that can keep side quests from being completed or items not appearing where they should, if at all that get to me. Skyrim has it's share of such issues, but also in DA: Awakening, there were many random map encounters that never triggered that had rare loot within, and you couldn't get the full blackblade armor set without console commands. I'll encounter these issues and wonder how they weren't discovered prior to release, and when they never get patched, that makes it all more annoying.

#134
Allan Schumacher

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For sure. Any bug that prevents the completion of content is a giant red flag and it sucks when that happens. There's never a situation when a bug like that is acceptable.

#135
Pzykozis

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I'd say the reason that Beth games aren't really trashed for those sorts of bugs are because they don't particularly take away from the experience, sure everyone hates it when they can't do a quest but backwards flying dragons, buckets on heads, exorcist doctors etc. all add to the charm and hilarity of the game. The bugs around a certain quest involving murder in Windhelm however was completely and utterly terrible.

Besides you can always do this.

#136
Direwolf0294

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Skyrim is probably the most immersive game I've played and I don't think DA3 can match that for one reason, the combat.

In Skyrim I'd be trekking through the wilderness hunting deer. I'd be looking at the world in first person, bow out, crouched down and slowly walking through the underbrush. Spotting a deer I'd slowly move into possition while trying not to startle it. Drawing an arrow I'd carefully line up my shot and then release my arrow. I'd watch it fly through the air and hit the deer in its rump. It would then take off and I'd stand up and sprint after it in pursuit. I would chase it down until it was cornered and then I'd once again draw an arrow and fire a shot into it, killing it.

You wouldn't be able to get an experience like that in a Dragon Age game. In a Dragon Age game you'd be running through the world with three other people, spot a group of deer (who are probably blight infected or something), run up to them and then right click to attack and sit back to watch as your character swings their weapon, fire their bow or shoots some magic at the deer, your three companions also doing this action. You may decide to hit 1 or 2 or 3 and then sit and watch while your character performs the ability, or maybe you don't have to press anything because you've set your tactics up just right.

Another example of Skyrim being immersive through its combat. You're traveling the world when suddenly some bandits set upon you. In the first person view you throw up your shield, block the two handed blow of an orc warrior. You then quickly retaliate with a slash of your sword which the orc fails to block. The orc falls over dead and you lower your weapons when suddenly an arrow zooms by your head, just missing you. You quickly turn and see an archer standing on a ruined tower taking shots at you. Raising your shield you run toward the tower. You feel the thunks on your shield as arrows fly into it. Reaching the tower you proceed to ascend the stairs. Upon reaching the top the archer pulls out a sword and runs towards you. You then Fus Ro Dah him off the tower and he falls to his death.

In DA the experience would be like this. You see a bandit and run toward them. You click to attack them and then sit back and watch until your character kills them. An arrow flies toward your character and the word "miss" appears over your characters head. Another arrow flies toward your character and the word "block" appears over their head. You see the archer standing on a hill and right click on them. You then sit back and watch as your character runs towards the archer and starts to attack. Your character slashes at the archer with a sword and after a few hits the archer dies.

Let me be clear here, I'm not trying to say DA has horrible combat or that Skyrims combat is the best. I'm just saying that because of the sort of combat system DA has it's impossible for the games to have the same sort of immersion as an Elder Scrolls game.

Of course there are other ways DA3 can be really immersive and full of life. BioWare game's strongest feature has always been its characters and I think that's what BioWare needs to focus on with DA3. Instead of stumbling upon a cave, solving a puzzle to open a chest and getting a few codex entries you should stumble upon a cave full of blood mages about to sacrifice a virgin to an old god. You would then engage in dialogue with them and get the choice to either join in, leave or kill them. If you kill them you get to talk to the virgin and are presented with some choices of what to do with them. Cities should be full of characters walking around the place going about their lives. Mothers out shopping with their young children, soldiers sitting outside a pub and discussing an upcoming conflict, escorts walking the streets propositioning people, those people accepting and then the two characters head off towards the inn etc. You should be able to interact with all these character. To walk up to those Mothers out shopping and chat with them about what they're purchasing. To join that group of soldiers for a drink and exchange war stories. To accept the proposition of one of those escorts. It should feel like the world exists without you but that you can choose to take part with that world when you want to.

Sorry if my posts full of spelling and grammer mistakes and is a little incoherent. It's been a long day and I'm pretty tired right now.

Edit: Also, dynamic weather would be sweet.

Modifié par Direwolf0294, 12 avril 2012 - 09:18 .


#137
Pzykozis

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Direwolf0294 wrote...

Let me be clear here, I'm not trying to say DA has horrible combat or that Skyrims combat is the best. I'm just saying that because of the sort of combat system DA has it's impossible for the games to have the same sort of immersion as an Elder Scrolls game.


This is also to me a core problem with exploration in DA style games, for me a lot of the fun of exploration is in the chalenge of mastering the land itself, but that requires more control over the movement of your character, the ability to jump for example being key.. Jumping from boulder to boulder whilst scrambling up scree, hopping between narrow safe spots on a cliff edge with a sheer drop to the side, avoiding pools of lava etc. When the journey itself is a challenge it makes the arriving even more rewarding to me.

And they do say its all about the journey.

Not that I ever expect Dragon's Edge : Parkourigins.

#138
AkiKishi

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HenchxNarf wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kingdoms of Amalur.

Exploration and open-world, but still small and focused enough that the main plot never falls by the wayside.


That would be an awfully big world lol However, that game is amazing.

I don't know if I would want DA to get THAT big in terms of world, because then you border on Skyrim territory which is TOO FREAKING BIG. And it takes forever to find stuff.


Unfortunately it's not as easy as just taking bits from games. KOA is very good at what it does, but thats because the combat never really bogs you down, anything not Orange, you can kill almost without breaking stride. If you simply put DA2's system into KOA it would get extremely repetative.
Same is true of Oblivion (have to use that since I have not played Skyrim) combat is very fast and fluid. DA type combat on the other hand needs to be planned out in encounters that require tactics, or you get the wave mechanic of DA2 which I don't think anyone liked.
The idea of playing KOA or Oblivion with a similiar combat system to DA2 would make me feel quite ill.

#139
FedericoV

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Until... Buckets

But then thats another reason to love Skyrim.



The QA group likes to get together periodically to discuss past and current RPGs, and I found Skyrim interesting.  I haven't actually played it yet, because I didn't really enjoy Oblivion, but what I found is that it seems maybe not all bugs are evil.

A lot of people seem to enjoy posting some of the insane (and hilarious) stuff, and it almost seems like some level of errors can really help make the exploration people find entertaining, even if for not the "right reason."  Obviously I'm not going to stop doing my job any time soon, but I'm curious what others think?


Many players like to exploit bugs because they feel smarter than the programmers while doing so. Other bugs just ask a lot of dedication and effort from the players (like the jump in the big blue in GTA 3) and there are people who enjoy a challenge.  Other bugs are just funny as hell, like the cougar-man in RDR. There are bugs that gave the possibility to experience some kind of emergent experience: in those cases you just enjoy the freedom to interact with the world outside the boundaries estabilished by the developers.

But most bugs are just of the annoying/game breaking kind, like the inventory bug of DA:A or the Frienship/Animation speed bug of DA2. So, please, fix them all :D.

Modifié par FedericoV, 12 avril 2012 - 12:02 .


#140
LolaLei

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I dunno, Skyrim just didn't do it for me. As much as I liked the big open world, for me personally it was missing character interaction, sure I could take a companion with me and marry him/her if I wanted to but what was the point? They had little to no personality. And that's why I play Bioware games because I get attached to all the companions and NPC's lol.

... I do love the rocket mammoth glitch in Skyrim though, I squealed when I saw one blast off into the sky!

#141
Sylvius the Mad

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

For sure. Any bug that prevents the completion of content is a giant red flag and it sucks when that happens. There's never a situation when a bug like that is acceptable.

I'm curious what you would classify as a bug.

In ME, I did the Ilos trenchrun on foot, and thus was unable to reach the conduit in time because the timer runs out.  But by the time the timer appears, the Mako was an 8 minute walk behind me.  Is that something QA would flag as a problem?

#142
Allan Schumacher

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm curious what you would classify as a bug.

In ME, I did the Ilos trenchrun on foot, and thus was unable to reach the conduit in time because the timer runs out.  But by the time the timer appears, the Mako was an 8 minute walk behind me.  Is that something QA would flag as a problem?



I think that that is an interesting case, because on the one hand I don't think we should hold our player's hands too much.  I think letting the players fail by making an incorrect choice is valid, and I've seen fans hate the feeling that they're ostensibly railroaded.  I feel these fans would rather that if they have to be forced down a path, it not be because of magical barriers but because of the path of least resistance.  Putting up an invisible wall or force killing the player without using the Mako is probably a bad idea.

I'd have to see the sequence on Ilos again (been over 3 years since I last played ME).  I am hesitant to flag exactly what you describe as a bug.  The only issue I have from your example is providing clarity to the player that the Mako is essential.  This leads to the idea of, if the Mako is provided is it a resonable and fair assumption to assume it's required for the upcoming sequence?  (I'm not presuming a yes or a no to this question)


As for what I consider a bug, I'm pretty liberal.  Design bugs are bugs that are inherent in the design, meaning that programmatically it cannot be accounted for but the system still behaves in a way that the designer didn't want.  This is what people would call exploits.  Iteration is the best way to resolve stuff like this, as well as thinking outside the box when playing through.  Progammatically the system behaves as expected, but the intention of the content creator was for something else to happen.

If we answer my question with a "No, it is not a reasonable assumption" then I'd consider the Ilos to be a bug.  If we answer yes, then I can consider it a choice that you made with your Shepard that was ultimately one that resulted in mission failure :)


Cheers.

Allan

#143
kalerab

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm curious what you would classify as a bug.

In ME, I did the Ilos trenchrun on foot, and thus was unable to reach the conduit in time because the timer runs out.  But by the time the timer appears, the Mako was an 8 minute walk behind me.  Is that something QA would flag as a problem?



I think that that is an interesting case, because on the one hand I don't think we should hold our player's hands too much.  I think letting the players fail by making an incorrect choice is valid, and I've seen fans hate the feeling that they're ostensibly railroaded.  I feel these fans would rather that if they have to be forced down a path, it not be because of magical barriers but because of the path of least resistance.  Putting up an invisible wall or force killing the player without using the Mako is probably a bad idea.

I'd have to see the sequence on Ilos again (been over 3 years since I last played ME).  I am hesitant to flag exactly what you describe as a bug.  The only issue I have from your example is providing clarity to the player that the Mako is essential.  This leads to the idea of, if the Mako is provided is it a resonable and fair assumption to assume it's required for the upcoming sequence?  (I'm not presuming a yes or a no to this question)


As for what I consider a bug, I'm pretty liberal.  Design bugs are bugs that are inherent in the design, meaning that programmatically it cannot be accounted for but the system still behaves in a way that the designer didn't want.  This is what people would call exploits.  Iteration is the best way to resolve stuff like this, as well as thinking outside the box when playing through.  Progammatically the system behaves as expected, but the intention of the content creator was for something else to happen.

If we answer my question with a "No, it is not a reasonable assumption" then I'd consider the Ilos to be a bug.  If we answer yes, then I can consider it a choice that you made with your Shepard that was ultimately one that resulted in mission failure :)


Cheers.

Allan


Well, although game offers you possibility of going to Conduit on foot, not beeing able to reach it can be hardly considered as bug given that no matter what in next scene on Citadel you see Mako beamed down on two geths. Also I dont really know how Shepard would be able to survive jump through half of the galaxy without any additional protection which Mako offers.

#144
Wozearly

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

But I don't want to wander around doing nothing for a portion of my game session. Or, maybe this better expresses my feelings: Every place I go, every area I interact with should reward me with story, dialogue, and character.


...and every time I push a button, some awes- okay, okay, bit of a low blow. ;)

But we really do come from opposite directions on this. I was absolutely fine sticking 'walk' on during journeys through DA:O's Deep Roads. In fact, I've used walk for the vast majority of all DA:O playthroughs, because forcibly slowing things down not only gives more time to appreciate the artwork and atmosphere, it also adds to the sense of it being a long journey broken by moments of danger.

I'm also someone who was quite happy trekking halfway over the map in Morrowind and Skyrim. I don't mind immersing myself in the world because its a world worth immersing in, it doesn't all have to be about things having to leap up and demand my attention and offer rewards in the form of loot, dialogue, side-quests, etc.

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Also is there a practical way to
improve the sense of exploration within an urban area like Hightown,
Denerim or Redcliffe?

I always
wondered how Bioware are so great at creating emotions and attachment to
your companion characters and bring them to life. But not as effective
in creating emotional feelngs towards a location.

Redcliffe was
good. It felt like a functioning community, I cared about the people
there and it was a beautiful setting next to the lake.


I'd say there are three parts to this. Genuine exploration, the illusion of exploration, and distraction.

Genuine exploration is the Morrowind / Oblivion / Skyrim approach of making anything habitable enterable. Might be locked, but you can learn to pick it. Or find a way in through a window. There won't necessarily be much inside every place as a result, but you can go anywhere and do anything the game allows you to. And from time to time, you'll stumble on something very unexpected. But it requires a fair chunk of resource to set up, and really requires the entire world to be built in that way, or it somehow seems odd.

The illusion of exploration avoids going that far. So the map is fixed, but little tricks like scattering a number of side roads and paths across it are used, often with multiple entrances and exits to other areas. Elements of these side-sections are used for main-quest or side-quest locations, and some will have unexpected elements for people who do explore the path less travelled. Random snatches of conversation, things you can see or experience that bring the world a little to life, but that don't need to be experienced by someone who'd rather not explore.

Distraction is something I feel TES also does fairly well. The worlds are actually relatively static, when you get down to it. Like MMOs, they don't usually undergo any fundamental change (of course, neither did Kirkwall, which was a massive missed opportunity). However, you can rework that in a number of ways - changing seasons, changing weather on a random basis. The first time I tried to get to Ald'ruhn in Morrowind, having to walk face on into a dust storm with my character holding his hand up to shield his eyes...very, very memorable.

So you don't necessarily change the static build of the world, but you do change what happens within it. If it rains, people might run for shelter rather than standing outside and talking in the sun. People's clothings may adapt with the weather, as might their introductory comments to you. The idea being to make you want to slow down and look around, to see the same world again in a new light, and get the sense that it is actually a world where things are happening around you, rather than just a series of paths you need to follow to progress the main quest and/or get your next epic piece of loot.

#145
Dave of Canada

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I wouldn't mind long dungeons similar to Deep Roads, perhaps longer, provided we'd get something similar to Diablo 1's exits out onto the main map / town. Going through the Deep Roads, you stumble onto an exit or shortcuts which would quicken any return-trip or backtracking.

The backtracking is what kills large maps for me.

#146
Takamori The Templar

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I wouldn't mind long dungeons similar to Deep Roads, perhaps longer, provided we'd get something similar to Diablo 1's exits out onto the main map / town. Going through the Deep Roads, you stumble onto an exit or shortcuts which would quicken any return-trip or backtracking.

The backtracking is what kills large maps for me.


Second that emotion, town portals or waypoints to save the day.
I remember my first time on the deep roads , forgot to make my bag check and went for adventure.
Ended up deciding which loot I would keep all the time, then the second time went with an empty bag, though it managed to go 100% in the end of it haha.

#147
Sylvius the Mad

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I wouldn't mind long dungeons similar to Deep Roads, perhaps longer, provided we'd get something similar to Diablo 1's exits out onto the main map / town. Going through the Deep Roads, you stumble onto an exit or shortcuts which would quicken any return-trip or backtracking.

The backtracking is what kills large maps for me.

As long as they don't eliminate the possibility of backtracking.  ME2 did this, constantly locking doors behind you, and it drove me crazy.

I like backtracking.  I don't want to sneak out the back door if that back door has no reason to exist.  The NWN was filled with deep caves with convenient yet inexplicable exists from the final boss chambers.  I hated those, and I never used them if I could help it.

#148
Sylvius the Mad

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm curious what you would classify as a bug.

In ME, I did the Ilos trenchrun on foot, and thus was unable to reach the conduit in time because the timer runs out.  But by the time the timer appears, the Mako was an 8 minute walk behind me.  Is that something QA would flag as a problem?

I think that that is an interesting case, because on the one hand I don't think we should hold our player's hands too much.  I think letting the players fail by making an incorrect choice is valid, and I've seen fans hate the feeling that they're ostensibly railroaded.  I feel these fans would rather that if they have to be forced down a path, it not be because of magical barriers but because of the path of least resistance.  Putting up an invisible wall or force killing the player without using the Mako is probably a bad idea.

I'd have to see the sequence on Ilos again (been over 3 years since I last played ME).  I am hesitant to flag exactly what you describe as a bug.  The only issue I have from your example is providing clarity to the player that the Mako is essential.  This leads to the idea of, if the Mako is provided is it a resonable and fair assumption to assume it's required for the upcoming sequence?  (I'm not presuming a yes or a no to this question)


As for what I consider a bug, I'm pretty liberal.  Design bugs are bugs that are inherent in the design, meaning that programmatically it cannot be accounted for but the system still behaves in a way that the designer didn't want.  This is what people would call exploits.  Iteration is the best way to resolve stuff like this, as well as thinking outside the box when playing through.  Progammatically the system behaves as expected, but the intention of the content creator was for something else to happen.

If we answer my question with a "No, it is not a reasonable assumption" then I'd consider the Ilos to be a bug.  If we answer yes, then I can consider it a choice that you made with your Shepard that was ultimately one that resulted in mission failure :)


Cheers.

Allan

Thanks for the answer.

Clearly ME does try to encourage use of the Mako.  First, if Shepard approaches the long tunnel on foot one of the squadmates will make a comment like "Hey, let's take the armoured vehicile into the scary crypt", which I remember, but I dismissed in in-character as Kaidan being whiny.  A 10 minute walk later (after encountering the Prothean recording), there's a huge cliff that cannot be passed on foot, requiring a 10 minute walk back to the Mako.  If Shepard then abandons the Mako again and completes the trench run on foot, the conduit timer guarantees failure.

I don't think it's a bug, though I think it runs contrary to BioWare's stated design goal of avoiding gotcha-style traps for the player.  To avoid that, I'd have suggested to have the time appear before it was too late to go back for the Mako.  Instead of a 40 second timer at the end, perhaps a 3 minute timer starting earlier.  Or perhaps another impassable drop-off just before the timer initiates, thus ensuring that Shepard would always be in the Mako.

As it was, I liked how ME handled it, but it did seem a bit off-message.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 12 avril 2012 - 08:45 .


#149
Dave of Canada

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As long as they don't eliminate the possibility of backtracking.  ME2 did this, constantly locking doors behind you, and it drove me crazy.

I like backtracking.  I don't want to sneak out the back door if that back door has no reason to exist.  The NWN was filled with deep caves with convenient yet inexplicable exists from the final boss chambers.  I hated those, and I never used them if I could help it.


Of course, that's why they're mostly shortcuts or waypoints. For example, I'd take the shortcut if I'm trying to cross quickly through the parts which I've already completed and had no interest in exploring again, yet I could still take the long path around and explore and discover more if I feel I've missed something.

Again, using Diablo as an example, upon reaching the Catacombs you can return to Tristram (the town) and restock up and possibly return back to a floor you've already cleared because it's closer to the Catacombs than the surface.

#150
Brockololly

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I wouldn't mind long dungeons similar to Deep Roads, perhaps longer, provided we'd get something similar to Diablo 1's exits out onto the main map / town. Going through the Deep Roads, you stumble onto an exit or shortcuts which would quicken any return-trip or backtracking.

The backtracking is what kills large maps for me.


Yeah, that would be nice.

Or even like Skyrim's dungeons which have the secret passageways built in that often take you right back to the entrance. Those are awesome.