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[Canned Bullets]

 And even if there was artistic integrity in ME3's ending, it wouldn't matter if the ending was changed because a lot of great writers have changed the endings to their works. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought back Sherlock Holmes from the dead, Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations, and Bethesda changed the ending of Fallout 3 by bringing the protagonist back to life.

What I'm saying is that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity. Preferably with Drew Karpyshyn and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT Mac Walters and Casey Hudson's involvement. 

Anyone agree? 

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 12 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[Legion64]

"Artistic Integrity" is just an excuse.

[Ratham]

Artistic Integrity is another phrase for "We dun goofed"

Easier to defend crap rather than admit you're wrong.

[LocustQueen]

I think it's safe to say most people can agree with this statement. It shouldn't even be about artistic integrity it should be about putting an ending where our choices from ME1 and 2 actually mattered. The mass effect series always made you make decisions on a completely logical and moral point of view and this ending took a way more philisopical approach. Bioware still never admitted to false advertising about the ending. I think that in itself is a big lose to bioware's "integrity"

[MACharlie1]

Using the artistic integrity argument means you aren't confident enough in your work to be able to defend it. It's easiest to just walk away and throw your arms up saying "Well it's art!".

[LocustQueen]

loss*

[Manton-X2]

I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt (even after all the half-truths and full on untrue things that were said leading up to launch), but I think the moment the focus on the game stopped being the telling of a great story and started to be about "speculation" they violated their own "artistic integrity".

Art from the heart is what causes the connection with the viewer/participant and spurs discussion and speculation, not first year psychology tricks. It's akin, to me, of putting real world products into an art-house movie like it is a commercial.

They can pretend like they came through that little exercise with their integrity in tact, but the Speculation Initiative says otherwise.

[Han Shot First]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Using the artistic integrity argument means you aren't confident enough in your work to be able to defend it. It's easiest to just walk away and throw your arms up saying "Well it's art!".

This.

They are unable to defend the endings on their own merit, so they try to use the claim that is art as a shield. The argument that altering the ending would violate Bioware's artistic integrity is nothing more than a strawman aimed at discrediting the retakers as anti-art.

[Arsenic Touch]

You can't hide behind buzz words like "artistic integrity" when you've already violated it by listening to fans previously for the game. But it doesn't stop them from trying.

[RyuujinZERO]

Does anyone remember the Tate gallery in london, when they accidentally forgot to put the statue on a podium, when the critics came by they thought the little stand the statue should've gone on WAS the piece; and they made a long speil and critique about the artistic merits of this stand.

When the truth came to light, they stood by their judgements citing the artistic integrity of the empty stand xD

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 11 avril 2012 - 05:40 .

[Han Shot First]

Arsenic Touch wrote...

You can't hide behind buzz words like "artistic integrity" when you've already violated it by listening to fans previously for the game. But it doesn't stop them from trying.

Exactly. 

The claim that altering the endings would violate their artistic integrity is laughable when you consider that gay romance options, the Tali and Garrus romances, the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, and Aethyta being Liara's father are all examples of things that ended up in the game because of fan requests.

[mikelope]

Criticize ME3 or Bioware's artistic integrity but not 'artistic integrity' itself, please. In some cases it has been used with validity against religious zealots, homophobes, etc.

And yes, there can be artistic integrity in bad writing as long as the bad writer believes in it. Artistic integrity has nothing to do with the work itself but with the artist.

[Felis Menari]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Does anyone remember the Tate gallery in london, when they accidentally forgot to put the statue on a podium, when the critics came by they thought the little stand the statue should've gone on WAS the piece; and they made a long speil and critique about the artistic merits of this stand.

When the truth came to light, they stood by their judgements citing the artistic integrity of the empty stand xD

Didn't know about that. Well...I guess the critics had to do something to defend their foolishness. Otherwise, they would be admitting that they had a bout of stupidity.

[DaJe]

Artistic Integrity is just another meaningless excuse along the lines of "God moves in mysterious ways."

[Canned Bullets]

mikelope wrote...

Criticize ME3 or Bioware's artistic integrity but not 'artistic integrity' itself, please. In some cases it has been used with validity against religious zealots, homophobes, etc.

And yes, there can be artistic integrity in bad writing as long as the bad writer believes in it. Artistic integrity has nothing to do with the work itself but with the artist.

Bioware is making artistic integrity look like a token argument because they keep essentially saying "Ugh, the masses are far too ignorant to understand our art!" so in a sense Bioware is ruining it for other artists who use artistic integrity to defend their work from zealots and homophobes.

Also, an artist threatened by zealots and homophobes would not use the arguement for artistic integrity, they would use the argument for freedom of expression.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[chester013]

They clearly subscribe to the Duchamp "it's art because I say it is" school of thought. Yes that's right Bioware, you took deus ex, turned it on its side and wrote your name on it.

[Getorex]

The phrase "artistic integrity" and/or "artistic vision" are weasel words used to cover any number of sins. It is used as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, as a charm, as a shield, and as a way to try and shut down an argument. It is a cop out. It is cowardice. It doesn't exist and doesn't apply.

It especially doesn't apply to a last-minute slap-dash "ending" that is created and slapped onto a story in the last few weeks of development. There WAS a true ending created by perhaps THE main writer of the entire series. It made sense, it fit in PERFECTLY with the entire rest of the series and, in particular, information cryptically brought up in ME2 MULTIPLE TIMES (dark energy). They lost the writer and tossed the ending and made up total crap at the last possible instant and slapped THAT on. No artistic vision, no integrity involved. Actually, the artistic vision and integrity is precisely and exactly equal to the amount of both that went into rendering Tali's face. A quick and dismissive bit of photoshopery.

"Artistic integrity" does not apply to gross violations of the RULES of storytelling. You blow a story all to hell by taking an arrow to the knee, loading up on pain meds and alcohol and THEN write some nonsense...it doesn't equate to art.

[mikelope]

Canned Bullets wrote...

mikelope wrote...

snip

Also, an artist threatened by zealots and homophobes would not use the arguemnt for artistici ntegrity, they would use the argument for freedom of expression.

That's true, because freedom of expression is easily accepted now. But artistic integrity was also used against accusation of obscenity or pornography in the past. Bertolucci's Last Tango in Paris and James Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind. 

[Cainne Chapel]

I cant fault someone believing in their work. Even if its panned or criticized.

I've been on the receiving end for things i've wrote too and I wouldn't change it one bit. I just nod, accept the criticism and say thank you but its staying the way it is.

Sure that can be used as a crutch, but if they honestly believe in the ending as bad as it can be (lack of proper epilogue closure etc) well I give them a nod for believing in their own work and standing by it.

I wont agree with it totally but as with freedom of speech its their option even if i dont like it.

[Shepard108278]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

I cant fault someone believing in their work. Even if its panned or criticized.

I've been on the receiving end for things i've wrote too and I wouldn't change it one bit. I just nod, accept the criticism and say thank you but its staying the way it is.

Sure that can be used as a crutch, but if they honestly believe in the ending as bad as it can be (lack of proper epilogue closure etc) well I give them a nod for believing in their own work and standing by it.

I wont agree with it totally but as with freedom of speech its their option even if i dont like it.

Same here except I like the ending so I don't see bad writing just a few things left out.

[Amioran]

Canned Bullets wrote...

 And even if there was artistic integrity in ME3's ending, it wouldn't matter if the ending was changed because a lot of great writers have changed the endings to their works. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought back Sherlock Holmes from the dead, Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations, and Bethesda changed the ending of Fallout 3 by bringing the protagonist back to life.

1. There are no great writers that changed their work because somebody ordered them to. Nobody.
2. Doyle suffered a lot for that choice. In his time fellow artists didn't consider him no more serously after it. Till now his name doesn't cope well with "art" at all just for what he has done.
3. Dickens had two finales for Great Expectations, both of which decided before. So I don't know of what the hell you are talking about (if you are gonna copy/paste other threads at last research a bit more about them, I already replied to this extensively there.)
4. Bethesda did it own their own initiative. An artist can decide to do so to please the audience. Another thing is pretending it.
5. Artistic Integrity has nothing to do with a "bad" or "good" work. It is not tied to quality, motivations etc.

Canned Bullets wrote...
What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity.

Again, completely missing the point.
They can decide to do it if they want. Violating artistic integrity is PRETENDING them to do so. Two different concepts.

[ognick23]

IMO just because those other people changed their work doesnt mean Bioware should have to if they dont want to, will some people hate them for it and never wanna see their logo again? yea. but i feel like they care enough to try to help some people who just wanted clarity in the end. You guys are lucky because if it was me i woulda gave you guys the George R.R. Martin treatment and did whatever i wanted who cares if you dont like it

[Amioran]

Han Shot First wrote...

This.

They are unable to defend the endings on their own merit, so they try to use the claim that is art as a shield.

Every form of expression is a form of art in its broader sense. There's no need to use nothing as a shield. Since "artistic integrity" doesn't need one to be recognized an artist to be in effect (i.e. it is tied to the broader concept of art) then every form of expression is tied with it.
 

Han Shot First wrote...
The argument that altering the ending would violate Bioware's artistic integrity is nothing more than a strawman aimed at discrediting the retakers as anti-art.

Nobody ever said that altering the ending per se (i.e. if they did chose to do it) would violate artistic integrity. What would violate artistic integrity is them being forced to do it just because you (as the user of the product) want it.

Why you always twist the point just to be right? Is that your modus operandi so you can find a little of appagation in these forums?

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Amioran]

Getorex wrote...

The phrase "artistic integrity" and/or "artistic vision" are weasel words used to cover any number of sins.

Don't say idiocies, for God's sake. Why don't you just shut up?

Getorex wrote...
It is used as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, as a charm, as a shield, and as a way to try and shut down an argument. It is a cop out. It is cowardice. It doesn't exist and doesn't apply.

This I cannot let pass. I usually don't personally attack people, not insult them, but in this case, for people like you there's no way to act differently, because you have said a thing of an inaudite gravity, much worser than an insult, much worser than a knife in the gut.

There are people that died in the past to preserve their artistic integrity and the one of other artists (no matter if they agreed with their vision or not), you complete idiot. I don't care if I'm banned for this but I cannot stand someone saying a thing as that and you are a complete imbecile that in a single sentence have made these people die for the second time.

There have been artists that have died for their ideals and the ability to be free to do what they wanted with their art. Now it comes the teenager that doesn't understand absolutely nothing and spit on centuries of violence, deprivations, torture etc. endured to be free just because he is too stupid to either understand of what the hell he is talking about and have to troll in a forum and do the figure of the funny guy.

Start studying a little, child, then check what you are about to say before you post and above all else check in real life where you say these things, because the video is not always there to shelter you from the things you say. 

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[Canned Bullets]

Amioran, I get what you're saying but completely changing the ME3 ending would not cause a slippery slope. This kind of ending would be okay for a linear shooter but this was supposed to be an RPG where our choices mattered and the ending invalidates our choices.

Also, Bioware isn't being threatened with death so you're taking this out of proportion because nobody has threatened to execute the Bioware wrting team and no you won't be banned because you support Bioware's ending. What you're thinking of is freedom of expression, not artistic integrity. 

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 06:35 .