247 réponses à ce sujet

[Tovanus]

Amioran wrote...

There have been artists that have died for their ideals and the ability to be free to do what they wanted with their art. Now it comes the teenager that doesn't understand absolutely nothing and spit on centuries of violence, deprivations, torture etc. endured to be free just because he is too stupid to either understand of what the hell he is talking about and have to troll in a forum and do the figure of the funny guy.

Start studying a little, child, then check what you are about to say before you post and above all else check in real life where you say these things, because the video is not always there to shelter you from the things you say.

He doesn't come across as a child, so much as you come across like some emotionally troubled highschool student trying to prove how deep you are or a troll (since you used the word "child", I think you are probably a troll). "Artistic integrity" is a phrase that has meaning in situations where someone is trying to get art change because of some political, religious or social message it sends or does not send to people. Maybe they want political propaganda where there isn't any, maybe they want to remove something subversive to an authority figure.

Obviously, Mass Effect does not relate in any meaningful way to that situation, and attempting to relate it comes across as hyperbolic nonsense. The only message being delivered to people in the end of Mass Effect 3 is, "We didn't bother to read the codex entries of our own games, don't remember the conversations your character had with Reapers earlier, and couldn't be bothered to take thirty minutes to examine the obvious plotholes left by this ending we probably took all of two minutes to draft." 

The use of the term "Artistic Integrity" by Bioware is a poor defense for poor quality and does deserve to be ridiculed. Immense consumer pressure to improve on something of extraordinarily bad quality should never be frowned upon. I think by this point most people understand it's pretty much over, but it's obvious that Bioware's decision wasn't based on "artistic integrity" so much as the sensitive pride of a few people at the top.

[wolfstanus]

@Farbautisonn

I was actually talking about mp dlc complaints. It wasn't a simpleton comment. As I seem to remember the sp rageing in all the sub me3 forums and even calling those that play mp a "blight on me" etc among various colorfull words. I was in no way shape or form referring to the ending or dlc for sp. you yourself made that assumption. This sub forum is a general discussion forum not a single player exclusive one.

[Clayless]

wolfstanus wrote...

Get free dlc
Complain

This, so much this.

[AkiKishi]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Get free dlc
Complain

This, so much this.

Free does not equate to good or even worthwhile. Clarity won't change the endings, it will just add more crap to the pile.

[wolfstanus]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Get free dlc
Complain

This, so much this.

Free does not equate to good or even worthwhile. Clarity won't change the endings, it will just add more crap to the pile.

We don't really know this. 

Also was referring to people who screamed and kicked because mp got dlc first.

[Farbautisonn]

wolfstanus wrote...

@Farbautisonn

I was actually talking about mp dlc complaints. It wasn't a simpleton comment. As I seem to remember the sp rageing in all the sub me3 forums and even calling those that play mp a "blight on me" etc among various colorfull words. I was in no way shape or form referring to the ending or dlc for sp. you yourself made that assumption. This sub forum is a general discussion forum not a single player exclusive one.

Then maybe you should have been more specific? Unless ofcourse you feel your post was so precise that it was impossible to make such a leap?

Infact it only makes my point. The problem isnt MP. Alot of people, myself included, never touched MP. I resented the fact that I had to play it to get "max score" in SP, so I just didnt. I am wagering (with zero evidence mind you) that the traditional SP crowd never got into MP that much. MP is a boon to the "new customer base", the one lured in with marketing and bling bling. The same crowd that will be lured away by Diablo 3, a game that likely will not bum out like ME3, because Blizzard has a "shut up, its done when its done" reputation to uphold.

So releasing "free MP DLC" isnt what the people complaining asked for. So ofcourse they will complain. That however seemed to come as a surprise to you.

[Aurica]

The issue here isn't so much on artistic integrity.  Its more along the lines of BW DOES NOT WANT to change the ending.   Also they are only clarifying the ending not because they wanted to do it.  They do so because the fans are enraged by the nonsensical ending.

In other words. 

1. We, the customers are not satisfied with the product.
2. They, as the vendor are fully confident with their product.  Feel that it is perfectly fine and that it is our issue because we are not satisfied with it.
3.  They acknowledge our displeasure and but will only go as far as clarifying the ending.  Since they do not feel that their product is the issue in the first place.

Modifié par Aurica, 17 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[TRISTAN WERBE]

Aurica wrote...

The issue here isn't so much on artistic integrity.  Its more along the lines of BW DOES NOT WANT to change the ending.   Also they are only clarifying the ending not because they wanted to do it.  They do so because the fans are enraged by the nonsensical ending.

In other words. 

1. We, the customers are not satisfied with the product.
2. They, as the vendor are fully confident with their product.  Feel that it is perfectly fine and that it is our issue because we are not satisfied with it.
3.  They acknowledge our displeasure and but will only go as far as clarifying the ending.  Since they do not feel that their product is the issue in the first place.

The customers always right bicth

[wolfstanus]

Not really. Assets were allready in the game for it
Also it's a was a mostly s jab at the people who complain about everything patches dlc etc even in other games... They are never happy.
I played me since day one. Love the mp. I have played a lot of RPGs. Many of my friends also liked the multiplayer.
New customer? A **** tone of people who bought me3 have been around since atleast me1 some like me even longer than that. (kotor)
Blizzard hater? Because they like multiplayer? Blizzard does not rush games... That's a bad thing? Also less hype is generated by the "it's done when it's done"
If that's true then isn't that a good thing? Or I'd a disappearing community a bad thing?
I remember threads asking for a form of mp ever since me1. The community is split... Attacks happen.. We have the "purists" and we have what? Noncompoops? What do we call casual gamers that want a story driven game? I played me3 for 40+ hours on one save. The kick in the stomach was not needed but other than that I loved the game. Casual gamers even bought me1... Casual gamers... Wanting to experience me to it fullest... And actually becoming somthing differnt... That's bad.

[Chuvvy]

Legion64 wrote...

"Artistic Integrity" is just an excuse.

This, it's a buzzword, just like "entitled".

[wolfstanus]

Edit.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 17 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[MichaelSD]

I accept their artistic integrity, I just do not want it.

[Amioran]

Tovanus wrote...
He doesn't come across as a child, so much as you come across like some emotionally troubled highschool student trying to prove how deep you are or a troll (since you used the word "child", I think you are probably a troll).

Do you seriously believe I care anything at all about what you think of me?
I usually don't speak at all with people with an IQ that's less than above average. In this forum I have to make exceptions because doing so would render the selection futile to begin with given the audience.

As for the way I replied I repeat: "with those words s/he did let artists that gave their life for their ideals to die another time".

Tovanus wrote...
"Artistic integrity" is a phrase that has meaning in situations where someone is trying to get art change because of some political, religious or social message it sends or does not send to people. Maybe they want political propaganda where there isn't any, maybe they want to remove something subversive to an authority figure.

1. "Artistic Integrity" is a simple concept that just means that the artist has the PROPERTY of the work, and nobody else.
2. Political reasons or otherwise (or whatever you can come up with) the above doesn't change. Yet another time, you see, I have to talk with people that have no idea of what they are babbling about and yet they think they are some sort of experts.

Tovanus wrote...
Obviously, Mass Effect does not relate in any meaningful way to that situation, and attempting to relate it comes across as hyperbolic nonsense.

 
Every form of expression has "artistic integrity" tied to it. You don't understand why? Too bad.

Tovanus wrote...
The only message being delivered to people in the end of Mass Effect 3 is, "We didn't bother to read the codex entries of our own games, don't remember the conversations your character had with Reapers earlier, and couldn't be bothered to take thirty minutes to examine the obvious plotholes left by this ending we probably took all of two minutes to draft." 

I already explained elsewhere the fallacy of all you say in details. There's a philosophical theme behind all the ME narrative, but it is obvious that you cannot understand this.

So of what we should talk about here? Of things you know anything about? I prefer to lose my time in other things, thanks. If you are somewhat interested you can search the threads where I discussed this in detail. At last doing so would give you an idea of why I say what I say concerning "losing time".

Tovanus wrote...
The use of the term "Artistic Integrity" by Bioware is a poor defense for poor quality and does deserve to be ridiculed.

"Artistic Integrity" always applies, in every work, be it badly exectued/well exectued, of poor quality/good quality, done for money/done in the name of art etc. etc.

The only ones that make ridicule of it are those that have no single idea of what they are talking about and yet they pretend (as it comes to changing the ending) to have something "profound" to say about it.

You are no different, so all you can say is just adding to the ridicule, nothing more, and yet you continue to ascribe such fallacy to Bioware.

Modifié par Amioran, 17 avril 2012 - 11:48 .

[wolfstanus]

slyguy200 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Get free dlc
Complain

This, so much this.

The DLC that they are offering was the last thing that people wanted. Free was a nice touch, they originally wanted to charge for it, you can thank us for accomplishing that much. 

Proof they were going to charge for it? Proof you accomplished this?
 

[Farbautisonn]

Amioran wrote...


I usually don't speak at all with people with an IQ that's less than above average.

-Oh look. Amioran is omniscient again. He can tell peoples IQ at a glance.

In this forum I have to make exceptions because doing so would render the selection futile to begin with given the audience.

-Grats. You just pissed over most of BSN. Including your "own" or those that defend bioware. Do keep going.

1. "Artistic Integrity" is a simple concept that just means that the artist has the PROPERTY of the work, and nobody else.

-I dont think anyone will argue that. However, if the artist is one bent on getting food on the table, and his client base doesnt like it, he has to change, or find a dayjob. And bioware / EA is very much bent on getting food on the table.

Every form of expression has "artistic integrity" tied to it. You don't understand why? Too bad.

-Thats just so illogical it boggles the mind. If your presumptuous drivel had any bearing I could punch a guy in the face and call it "artistic expression" and then have the balls to ask him to pay me for it.

I already explained elsewhere the fallacy of all you say in details. There's a philosophical theme behind all the ME narrative, but it is obvious that you cannot understand this.

-Obviously you cannot either or you would have pinpointed it and made acedemic references to it.

"Artistic Integrity" always applies, in every work, be it badly exectued/well exectued, of poor quality/good quality, done for money/done in the name of art etc. etc.

-Thats just  so wide a definition it loses all sense.

The only ones that make ridicule of it are those that have no single idea of what they are talking about and yet they pretend (as it comes to changing the ending) to have something "profound" to say about it.

-Ladies and gentlemen: I present to you the definition of "Irony".

You are no different, so all you can say is just adding to the ridicule, nothing more, and yet you continue to ascribe such fallacy to Bioware.

-I have never seen one as pompous as you lecture others on fallacies when you employ them constantly yourself. The only one standing in face of ridicule... is you.

[Tenshi]

there is nothing artistic about the ending, its just crap.

[Tovanus]

Amioran wrote...

Tovanus wrote...
He doesn't come across as a child, so much as you come across like some emotionally troubled highschool student trying to prove how deep you are or a troll (since you used the word "child", I think you are probably a troll).

Do you seriously believe I care anything at all about what you think of me?

Well, five days after your last post in this thread, you suddenly felt compelled to respond to my post in it. Not that it matters, but it's hard to take people seriously when they pull the, "I don't care what you think about me line!" followed by a long post trying to dissect what the person said about them.

Amioran wrote...
I usually don't speak at all with people with an IQ that's less than above average. In this forum I have to make exceptions because doing so would render the selection futile to begin with given the audience.

As for the way I replied I repeat: "with those words s/he did let artists that gave their life for their ideals to die another time".

Tovanus wrote...
"Artistic integrity" is a phrase that has meaning in situations where someone is trying to get art change because of some political, religious or social message it sends or does not send to people. Maybe they want political propaganda where there isn't any, maybe they want to remove something subversive to an authority figure.

1. "Artistic Integrity" is a simple concept that just means that the artist has the PROPERTY of the work, and nobody else.
2. Political reasons or otherwise (or whatever you can come up with) the above doesn't change. Yet another time, you see, I have to talk with people that have no idea of what they are babbling about and yet they think they are some sort of experts.

You come across as someone who read a chapter in some dime-store artistic philosophy novel, and now desperately needs everyone you interact with on the forums to know that.

We actually have words to denote intellectual property in a work. With art, "copyright" and "trademark" is what you're looking for. I'm sorry you wasted time trying to buld some absurd strawman argument out of what I said, but property is not the issue. "Integrity" is generally connected to issues such as honesty and ethical behavior. The examples I gave of "artistic integrity" are situations where people take the use of the term seriously. Your attempt to so broadly define a vague and subjective term so that it applies to this situation is why it has figuratively lost meaning in this argument.

Amioran wrote...

Tovanus wrote...
Obviously, Mass Effect does not relate in any meaningful way to that situation, and attempting to relate it comes across as hyperbolic nonsense.

Every form of expression has "artistic integrity" tied to it. You don't understand why? Too bad.

I understand "why" you want to tie the phrase in with "every form of expression." Because anything short of that absurdly broad categorization robs you of using the phrase as a defense for the ending. Sure, do what you want with such a highly subjective term. But like I said, when your use of it is that broad, no one will take seriously as a defense to anything, especially flat out poor writing. It must get tiring trying to keep up your hyperbolic nonsense and sense of internet superiority.

Amioran wrote...

Tovanus wrote...
The only message being delivered to people in the end of Mass Effect 3 is, "We didn't bother to read the codex entries of our own games, don't remember the conversations your character had with Reapers earlier, and couldn't be bothered to take thirty minutes to examine the obvious plotholes left by this ending we probably took all of two minutes to draft."

I already explained elsewhere the fallacy of all you say in details. There's a philosophical theme behind all the ME narrative, but it is obvious that you cannot understand this.

So of what we should talk about here? Of things you know anything about? I prefer to lose my time in other things, thanks. If you are somewhat interested you can search the threads where I discussed this in detail. At last doing so would give you an idea of why I say what I say concerning "losing time".

If the arguments you or others have made to defend the ending of ME 3 had any merit, people like you and Bioware would not have to resort to trying to stretch the term "artistic integrity" into meaningless drivel to defend their writing. These forums have been rife with analysis of thematic inconsistency, genre abandonment, plotholes, and poor plot devices. The retorts have been weak and shallow.

It's pretty clear from your writing (calling people "child", talkng about their "IQ", trying to make it seem as if interaction with you on the forum is some privilege you are deigning to give on fools) that you crave feeling smugly superior. I'm sure the ending of Mass Effect 3 has given you plenty of opportunity for that. How better to feel superior then convincing yourself that you "get it" and almost no one else does? But you should have chosen something better. The writing of ME 3 is not that complicated, and people can see when the writers failed to plan ahead and paid a price for it in the quality of their work.

Amioran wrote...

Tovanus wrote...
The use of the term "Artistic Integrity" by Bioware is a poor defense for poor quality and does deserve to be ridiculed.

"Artistic Integrity" always applies, in every work, be it badly exectued/well exectued, of poor quality/good quality, done for money/done in the name of art etc. etc.

The only ones that make ridicule of it are those that have no single idea of what they are talking about and yet they pretend (as it comes to changing the ending) to have something "profound" to say about it.

You are no different, so all you can say is just adding to the ridicule, nothing more, and yet you continue to ascribe such fallacy to Bioware.

No one is saying you can't apply the term to whatever you want. Don't be surprised though that when you apply it to "every work", using it as defense is viewed as a copout and ridiculed. I guess if you want, you can go look for some deep, meaningful quotes about how artists have died in history so that artists today could avoid being pressured by paying patrons into fixing obviously flawed work in the name of artistic integrity. I'm sure we could all use another opportunity to roll our eyes.

[jobelous]

oh, how Bioware's PR machine roped us and the press into talking about "artistic integrity".

All the documented deficiencies of this product and the tie-in novel scream "rush-job" and EA recently even won the award for worst company in America. This is NOT about closure, clarity or artistic integrity. The discussion should be about consumer rights, customer service and if you wanted to discuss the actual quality of the product sold, then it's about narrative cohesion!



As long as the ending lacks narrative cohesion, "artistic integrity" doesn't even factor into this discussion. If George R.R. Martin would end the Game of Thrones series with "The Others" being "banana salesmen from Mars" and the Night's Watch just being a misunderstood customs organization initially protecting Westeros from cheap Martian bananas, the outrage that would presumably follow that release would also have no bearing on his artistic integrity.

Such an ending would be very unsatisfying to say the least and it would lack narrative cohesion. Which is exactly what happened to Mass Effect and sums up why "expanding" the current endings will not fix the underlying issue (even though a minority of consumers would still be perfectly fine with that ending to Game of Thrones and defend it as art until the end of time).

I think simply not buying any Bioware games until the Extended Cut is out and then deciding is the right thing to do for all of us.

[Romantiq]

Tirigon wrote...

Romantiq wrote...

I suppose this truly is the "awesome button" of ME3 xD

Sorry for off-topic, but I must ask:

Your avatar is really awesome, is it one of bioWare's or, if not, who made it?

Looks like a wonderful piece of art to me.

There you go 

http://browse.devian...set=24#/d32l0un 
These forums have horrible design and rarely visit them so I reply only now. :happy:

Modifié par Romantiq, 17 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[CARL_DF90]

jobelous wrote...

oh, how Bioware's PR machine roped us and the press into talking about "artistic integrity".

All the documented deficiencies of this product and the tie-in novel scream "rush-job" and EA recently even won the award for worst company in America. This is NOT about closure, clarity or artistic integrity. The discussion should be about consumer rights, customer service and if you wanted to discuss the actual quality of the product sold, then it's about narrative cohesion!



As long as the ending lacks narrative cohesion, "artistic integrity" doesn't even factor into this discussion. If George R.R. Martin would end the Game of Thrones series with "The Others" being "banana salesmen from Mars" and the Night's Watch just being a misunderstood customs organization initially protecting Westeros from cheap Martian bananas, the outrage that would presumably follow that release would also have no bearing on his artistic integrity.

Such an ending would be very unsatisfying to say the least and it would lack narrative cohesion. Which is exactly what happened to Mass Effect and sums up why "expanding" the current endings will not fix the underlying issue (even though a minority of consumers would still be perfectly fine with that ending to Game of Thrones and defend it as art until the end of time).

I think simply not buying any Bioware games until the Extended Cut is out and then deciding is the right thing to do for all of us.

Good. Another human that understands. 



@ Romantiq

It maybe off-topic but it is still awesome.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 18 avril 2012 - 03:22 .