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[Getorex]

Amioran wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

This.

They are unable to defend the endings on their own merit, so they try to use the claim that is art as a shield.

Every form of expression is a form of art in its broader sense. There's no need to use nothing as a shield. Since "artistic integrity" doesn't need one to be recognized an artist to be in effect (i.e. it is tied to the broader concept of art) then every form of expression is tied with it.
 

Han Shot First wrote...
The argument that altering the ending would violate Bioware's artistic integrity is nothing more than a strawman aimed at discrediting the retakers as anti-art.

Nobody ever said that altering the ending per se (i.e. if they did chose to do it) would violate artistic integrity. What would violate artistic integrity is them being forced to do it just because you (as the user of the product) want it.

Why you always twist the point just to be right? Is that your modus operandi so you can find a little of appagation in these forums?

We can all assume now that you don't go watch movies right?  You refuse to go to the theater or rent movies either.  Why?  Because virtually ALL movies are changed according to viewer input.  Before they release the movie they run it past test audiences.  If the audiences don't like something, oh, like the ending, THEY CHANGE IT.  

Same with ALL books.  Virtually every book you read was passed through other people first.  Hubby passes his drafts to his wife, wife passes her's to hubby, they pass them on to friends and relatives who agree to read their sh*t.  These people give feedback on what works, what doesn't, what they like, what the don't like.  The author CHANGES it.  Then there's the editor.  The nearly finished copy goes to the editor who makes further suggestions for changes.  In some cases those "suggestions" are all but orders (or the book wont get published).  The author CHANGES their writing to please their initial reader/testers because they want their book to be LIKED and be understood and be accepted.  No changey, no likey.  Simple.

It always gets changed.  A lot.  There is no such thing as "artistic integrity", etc.  There is stubbornness or reasonableness.  Nothing else.

[Canned Bullets]

Getorex wrote...

Amioran wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

This.

They are unable to defend the endings on their own merit, so they try to use the claim that is art as a shield.

Every form of expression is a form of art in its broader sense. There's no need to use nothing as a shield. Since "artistic integrity" doesn't need one to be recognized an artist to be in effect (i.e. it is tied to the broader concept of art) then every form of expression is tied with it.
 

Han Shot First wrote...
The argument that altering the ending would violate Bioware's artistic integrity is nothing more than a strawman aimed at discrediting the retakers as anti-art.

Nobody ever said that altering the ending per se (i.e. if they did chose to do it) would violate artistic integrity. What would violate artistic integrity is them being forced to do it just because you (as the user of the product) want it.

Why you always twist the point just to be right? Is that your modus operandi so you can find a little of appagation in these forums?

We can all assume now that you don't go watch movies right?  You refuse to go to the theater or rent movies either.  Why?  Because virtually ALL movies are changed according to viewer input.  Before they release the movie they run it past test audiences.  If the audiences don't like something, oh, like the ending, THEY CHANGE IT.  

Same with ALL books.  Virtually every book you read was passed through other people first.  Hubby passes his drafts to his wife, wife passes her's to hubby, they pass them on to friends and relatives who agree to read their sh*t.  These people give feedback on what works, what doesn't, what they like, what the don't like.  The author CHANGES it.  Then there's the editor.  The nearly finished copy goes to the editor who makes further suggestions for changes.  In some cases those "suggestions" are all but orders (or the book wont get published).  The author CHANGES their writing to please their initial reader/testers because they want their book to be LIKED and be understood and be accepted.  No changey, no likey.  Simple.

It always gets changed.  A lot.  There is no such thing as "artistic integrity", etc.  There is stubbornness or reasonableness.  Nothing else.

I remember Mac Walters saying that all of the writing teams' work was peer reviewed and if they found somethign they didn't like it would be changed, why didn't this happen with the ending? I might sound like a conspiracy theorist but those rumors of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson locking themselves in a room writing the ending without letting anyone else read the script might be true.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[Amioran]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Amioran, I get what you're saying but completely changing the ME3 ending would not cause a slippery slope.  

Again, if they (Bioware) want to do it there's no problem at all. The problem is only in the fact that people pretend it.

They are two separate concepts.

[Canned Bullets]

Amioran wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

Amioran, I get what you're saying but completely changing the ME3 ending would not cause a slippery slope.  

Again, if they (Bioware) want to do it there's no problem at all. The problem is only in the fact that people pretend it.

They are two separate concepts.

First off, if Bioware really did this on their own accord than they would admit fault and would change the ending the only reason why their half assing the DLC by just polishing a turd is because they (and most likely EA) saw a market that could be exploited, the dissatisfied Mass Effect fan. 

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[Amioran]

Getorex wrote...

We can all assume now that you don't go watch movies right?  You refuse to go to the theater or rent movies either.  Why?  Because virtually ALL movies are changed according to viewer input.

Again missing completely the point, I see.

Did you ever read a single word I wrote?

If the artist want to change the work to please the audience there's nothing wrong with it. Another thing completely different is that the audience PRETENDS (let's see if in italic, underscored and bold you understand this) the artist to change the work.

Or do you believe that if you go to a movie and begin to say "I want this changed" the director will come to you and immediately say "yes, sir, as you like, I count nothing, my opinions count nothing, whatever you say I will do"? 

Let's see if this time you get the difference. Try to think a little and see if you can get it.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[Amioran]

Canned Bullets wrote...
First off, if Bioware really did this on their own accord than they would admit fault and would change the ending the only reason why their hald assing the DLC by just polishing a turd is because they (and most likely EA) saw a market that could be exploited, the dissatisfied Mass Effect fan. 

Right or wrong (this assertion) it has nothing to do with artistic integrity.

[Canned Bullets]

Amioran wrote...

Getorex wrote...

We can all assume now that you don't go watch movies right?  You refuse to go to the theater or rent movies either.  Why?  Because virtually ALL movies are changed according to viewer input.

Again missing completely the point, I see.

Do you ever read a single word I wrote?

If the artist want to change the work to please the audience there's nothing wrong with it. Another thing completely different is that the audience PRETENDS the artist to change the work.

Or do you believe that if you go to a movie and begin to say "I want this changed" the director will come to you and immediately say "yes, sir, as you like, I count nothing, my opinions count nothing, whatever you say I will do"? 

Let's see if this time you get the difference. Try to think a little and see if you can get it.

I get what you're saying but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with bioware changing the ending to Mass Effect 3 and you're not going to convince anyone else otherwise, also, as the thread title says there is no artistic integrity in bad writing.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 06:48 .

[Amioran]

Canned Bullets wrote...

I get what you're saying but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with bioware changing the ending to Mass Effect 3 and you're not going to convince anyone else otherwise.

The fact is: who ever said the contrary?

Bah.

I sometimes wonder...

[Canned Bullets]

Amioran wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

I get what you're saying but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with bioware changing the ending to Mass Effect 3 and you're not going to convince anyone else otherwise.

The fact is: who ever said the contrary?

Bah.

I sometimes wonder...

What are you talking about, you're saying that changing the Mass Effect 3 ending would sacrifice artistic integrity thus it should not be changed but I'll say it again. There is no artistic integrity in bad writing.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[Amioran]

Canned Bullets wrote...
What are you talking about, you're saying that changing the Mass Effect 3 ending would sacrifice artistic integrity thus it should not be changed but I'll say it again. There is no artistic integrity in bad writing.

No, I said that the artistic integrity of Bioware is violated by people that pretends the ending to be changed (i.e. if Bioware wants to preserve the ending as it is then their artistic integrity is violated if people pretend otherwise).

I never stated that changing the ending per se would violate the artistic integrity of Bioware.

Please, read well what I write.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[AlanC9]

Canned Bullets wrote...
I get what you're saying but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with bioware changing the ending to Mass Effect 3

Depends on what they change it to. I've seen fan proposals that are even worse than the current ending.

[Amioran]

AlanC9 wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...
I get what you're saying but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with bioware changing the ending to Mass Effect 3

Depends on what they change it to. I've seen fan proposals that are even worse than the current ending.

That's all another thing altogheter.

I get perfectly what you say (and I agree completely) but it is enough difficult already making people here comprehend the difference from pretending a change and a change in itself, so I don't think it possible that they can comprehend a thing so "complicate" (sarcasm naturally) as this.

[Tirigon]

Actually doing something bad on purpose can be a way to prove you have more artistic integrity than could be good for you and your product.
One of my favourite musicians once made some sh!tty record and advertised it with "Normal people dont need this sh!t. It is for those who are insane, want a record that is sure to ruin every party, or just buy everything I crap out, because I crapped it out".
That was so much artistic integrity you could have beaten someone to death with it.....,.



but if you go the Mass Effect approach and tell everything, the heap you crapped on the carpet is actually pure gold, then yes... You are right, OP.

[Outamyhead]

Should have been left with Drew Karpshyn and Mac, same with the books as well, they should have left book four with Drew (if there was ever a number four in Drew's plans), even that is getting a major overhaul and re-release because it was such a fudge cluster.

May not have much integrity for doing it, but they have artistic right to change whatever they want, Valve changed the end of Portal...granted that was to make it fit in with the sequel, but still it could be done to make the multiple choice actually mean something.

Modifié par Outamyhead, 11 avril 2012 - 07:23 .

[Quionic]

 I've seen writing on public bathroom walls that had more "artistic integrity". 
Hell, even the stupid comments on them were a better ending. 

[JasonDaPsycho]

I don't necessarily agree with the OP. Don't get me wrong. The artistic integrity BS is as shameless as Bioware could get.

My opinions are as follows:
1. Artistic integrity is something to be respected. It is, in contrary to popular beliefs, NOT an excuse to outright lie to your fanbase about a game you are about to release 2 months later.
2. When money transactions are involved, artistic integrity is as much as the customers' as it is the creators'. ie it belongs to both the customers and the creators.

[Oldbones2]

Canned Bullets wrote...

 And even if there was artistic integrity in ME3's ending, it wouldn't matter if the ending was changed because a lot of great writers have changed the endings to their works. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought back Sherlock Holmes from the dead, Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations, and Bethesda changed the ending of Fallout 3 by bringing the protagonist back to life.

What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity. Preferably with Drew Karpyshyn and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT Mac Walters and Casey Hudson's involvement. 

Anyone agree? 

Actually I strongly disagree.

Because Art is subjective not objective its hard to call any art including writing 'bad'.

Artistic integrity means refusing to allow outside forces (usually money) to compromise the inherent original vision of the artist.

However artistic integrity is a privelige you must forfeit when you decide sell your art as a mass consumed product.

[Vormaerin]

Canned Bullets wrote...

]What are you talking about, you're saying that changing the Mass Effect 3 ending would sacrifice artistic integrity thus it should not be changed but I'll say it again. There is no artistic integrity in bad writing.

You can say it lots of times, but it will still be untrue.  Artistic integrity is simply telling the story/presenting the vision that you, as the artist, wish.   The opposite, selling out, is changing your style or result for financial gain.

Bioware is changing the ending.  They are aware that they did not get the effect that they intended.  Therefore, they are extending the ending sequence to address these failures of implementation.

What they are not changing is the core concept of the ending, because that is the one that they feel is appropriate.   They aren't throwing out their vision of the ending in favor of that of some subset of the fans'.   They are trying to improve the quality of the existing vision's presentation.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...
I get what you're saying but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with bioware changing the ending to Mass Effect 3

Depends on what they change it to. I've seen fan proposals that are even worse than the current ending.

True, but in that case we always have the original ME3 endings. I kid, I kid. But seriously, if Bioware is taking as much fan feedback as they claim to be, only absolute incompetence could result in them failing on this scale a second time. I doubt clarification will please everyone, but if it were produce an even greater level of outcry, well, that's quite an accomplishment for Bioware.

A side note:

Personally, I acknowledge that artistic integrity as a concept exists and I respect that some artists will care about their work more than financial success. But as a consumer, I also don't particularly care about the artist's vision if I find the product distasteful. It's simply the nature of the beast.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 avril 2012 - 08:17 .

[Vormaerin]

Oldbones2 wrote...
However artistic integrity is a privelige you must forfeit when you decide sell your art as a mass consumed product.

No its not.  You *can* try to make products that are designed to cater to the market.  But just because you sell something doesn't mean you need to sacrfice your vision. 

You only have to forfeit your artistic integrity when you want to maximize revenue first and foremost.  And that might not even work since the audience can often tell when you are mailing it in for money.

[Richard 060]

Probably the best way to summarise it is thusly:

It's no loss to 'artistic integrity' to listen to your audience, take on constructive criticism, and use it to make your art better.

To put your fingers in your ears, ignore any opinion that isn't fawningly positive, and declare your 'art' above criticism, because changing it would damage your 'integrity' (despite it being intrinsically flawed, from an objective standpoint), though?

That's not a sign of 'integrity'. That's hubris, ego, and foolish pride.


As an artist m'self (professional musician - concert-hall soloist, natch, so I'd like to think I know what I'm banging on about, here...), you can't declare yourself to have 'artistic integrity' if you're still shackled by your ego. Be objective, be logical, and look at your creative output from the perspective of the audience, and try to understand their point of view - and if you find yourself agreeing with it, make changes.


Or, to put it bluntly, in the words of a great Jazz musician hero of mine:


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

[Romantiq]

I suppose this truly is the "awesome button" of ME3 xD

[Tirigon]

Romantiq wrote...

I suppose this truly is the "awesome button" of ME3 xD

Sorry for off-topic, but I must ask:

Your avatar is really awesome, is it one of bioWare's or, if not, who made it?

Looks like a wonderful piece of art to me.

[Kya]

Beard's Eye: Are Players Just Audience?

Long read, arguing that in gaming, players are part of the creation process of "art". And particularly Mass Effect, for which it has always been emphasized that players are part of the creation process.

The key to it all, the end towards which each (somewhat) individual story leads, is pretty much taken out of players' control and independent of a lot of choices made. Your individual story which you created, your piece of art, doesn't matter in the end. 

[Nefla]

All this "artistic integrity" business always reminds me of the times I see someone post a badly drawn picture online and when people point out flaws they fall back to "IT'S MY STYLE!!!" If Bioware was that concerned about artistic integrity, they wouldn't have sold themselves to EA in the first place. It would be one thing if they had been steadfast all along but Bioware has added people's suggestions into their games in the past, even things they never would have planned like Garrus and Tali romances. If artistic integrity was so important, EA wouldn't be forcing new games to be produced in such a short amount of time reguardless of quality or how finished the game is. Series like Dragon Age wouldn't be pushed in such an odd, shallow direction to try to grab as many "CoD" players as possible while throwing away fans that have been loyal since day one. (losing key people who actually have artistic integrity along the way) Bioware doesn't want to change the ending of ME3, that's obvious but I seriously doubt the decision has anything to do with "artistic integrity."