247 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Richard 060 wrote...


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

Newsflash:  They are seeking to improve.   You might have heard of something called an "Extended Cut"?   They are seeking to improve their delivery of the story they envisioned.    

[Vormaerin]

Nefla wrote...

All this "artistic integrity" business always reminds me of the times I see someone post a badly drawn picture online and when people point out flaws they fall back to "IT'S MY STYLE!!!" If Bioware was that concerned about artistic integrity, they wouldn't have sold themselves to EA in the first place. It would be one thing if they had been steadfast all along but Bioware has added people's suggestions into their games in the past, even things they never would have planned like Garrus and Tali romances. If artistic integrity was so important, EA wouldn't be forcing new games to be produced in such a short amount of time reguardless of quality or how finished the game is. Series like Dragon Age wouldn't be pushed in such an odd, shallow direction to try to grab as many "CoD" players as possible while throwing away fans that have been loyal since day one. (losing key people who actually have artistic integrity along the way) Bioware doesn't want to change the ending of ME3, that's obvious but I seriously doubt the decision has anything to do with "artistic integrity."

This is nonsense.  Adopting ideas that fit your vision is not selling out.   You might not like the decisions they are making, but that doesn't mean they are lacking in integrity.

Just what do you think the decision not to change the ending has to do with, if not their desire to keep the story they want to tell?  Its clearly not selling out for money, or they would be writing some new ending that suits the loudest fans.  Instead, they are sticking with the story they want to tell and are seeking to improve that.

[Cadence of the Planes]

Canned Bullets wrote...

 And even if there was artistic integrity in ME3's ending, it wouldn't matter if the ending was changed because a lot of great writers have changed the endings to their works. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought back Sherlock Holmes from the dead, Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations, and Bethesda changed the ending of Fallout 3 by bringing the protagonist back to life.

What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity. Preferably with Drew Karpyshyn and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT Mac Walters and Casey Hudson's involvement. 

Anyone agree? 

Disagree- the writing was good.

[Traim Eisenblut]

Cadence of the Planes wrote...



Disagree- the writing was good.

It had at least some autistic integrity...

[Cadence of the Planes]

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...



Disagree- the writing was good.

It had at least some autistic integrity...

Har har..... now you just look immature for making fun of autism. Congratulations

[Aramiss Ducati]

Interesting quote from Hideo Kojima about how games are not truly art.

http://kotaku.com/15...mes-are-not-art

[Traim Eisenblut]

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...



Disagree- the writing was good.

It had at least some autistic integrity...

Har har..... now you just look immature for making fun of autism. Congratulations

No, I made fun of BioWare and their press releases. Nothing bad was said about autism or people with developmental psychopatholigical behaviour-disorders in general.

But nice try...

[XTR3M3]

I SO want BioWare to redeem themselves. I know from the past "marketing techniques" that we have very little reason to accept their statements at face value but I loved the ME trilogy so much that hope is all I have. The EC DLC will make or break it for me.

[Tirigon]

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...



Disagree- the writing was good.

It had at least some autistic integrity...

Har har..... now you just look immature for making fun of autism. Congratulations

No, I made fun of BioWare and their press releases. Nothing bad was said about autism or people with developmental psychopatholigical behaviour-disorders in general.

But nice try...

Oftentimes this amounf of complicated words is an indication of an attempt to cover oneself because one realizes one's mistake but does not want to admit it.

Even more so if there is a spelling error

[Nefla]

Vormaerin wrote...

Nefla wrote...

All this "artistic integrity" business always reminds me of the times I see someone post a badly drawn picture online and when people point out flaws they fall back to "IT'S MY STYLE!!!" If Bioware was that concerned about artistic integrity, they wouldn't have sold themselves to EA in the first place. It would be one thing if they had been steadfast all along but Bioware has added people's suggestions into their games in the past, even things they never would have planned like Garrus and Tali romances. If artistic integrity was so important, EA wouldn't be forcing new games to be produced in such a short amount of time reguardless of quality or how finished the game is. Series like Dragon Age wouldn't be pushed in such an odd, shallow direction to try to grab as many "CoD" players as possible while throwing away fans that have been loyal since day one. (losing key people who actually have artistic integrity along the way) Bioware doesn't want to change the ending of ME3, that's obvious but I seriously doubt the decision has anything to do with "artistic integrity."

This is nonsense.  Adopting ideas that fit your vision is not selling out.   You might not like the decisions they are making, but that doesn't mean they are lacking in integrity.

Just what do you think the decision not to change the ending has to do with, if not their desire to keep the story they want to tell?  Its clearly not selling out for money, or they would be writing some new ending that suits the loudest fans.  Instead, they are sticking with the story they want to tell and are seeking to improve that.

I think the ending was rushed, and devs have said during interviews that they didn't have the resources to do a lot of things. If they didn't have the time or budget to even put a decent ending into the series, there's no way they'd have the budget to make an entirely new ending, especially since a lot of the people who want a new ending feel they shouldn't have to pay for it.

EA wants to make the most money off of the least investment in time and money. This makes sense in the short term, but long term it will hurt the company and they'll lose a lot of current and potential customers. If the writing team really passionately believed that the ending was amazing then they would be defending and explaining their work.

[MrTijger]

slyguy200 wrote...

Yep, there is no art in this failure.
Also Walters and hudson should not be included.

Without Hudson there wouldnt even BE a Mass Effect trilogy. 

[Traim Eisenblut]

Tirigon wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...



Disagree- the writing was good.

It had at least some autistic integrity...

Har har..... now you just look immature for making fun of autism. Congratulations

No, I made fun of BioWare and their press releases. Nothing bad was said about autism or people with developmental psychopatholigical behaviour-disorders in general.

But nice try...

Oftentimes this amounf of complicated words is an indication of an attempt to cover oneself because one realizes one's mistake but does not want to admit it.

Even more so if there is a spelling error

You do realize that I`m not a native english speaker and the terms are literal translations of the correct german term "Entwicklungspsychopathologische Verhaltensstörungen" which is the medical classification of diseases autism is part of. I admit, the terms are complicated, but as I had to study them, why not use them?

Trying to mock others by pointing out typos on the other hand... wll, I don't have learned anything about that behaviour in med-school. Life tought me however it's considered to be nitpicky. Further conversations between us may better be held in german, to not offend your sense of orthography.

[Kepesk3]

I literally cannot hear the words "artistic integrity" and not rage anymore. It's such a terrible, childish excuse, only used to obfuscate and mislead those who don't understand what all the fuss is about and gather them in defense of awful decision making and even worse story writing, while making the Retake movement look like art hating imbeciles.

[Richard 060]

Vormaerin wrote...

Richard 060 wrote...


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

Newsflash:  They are seeking to improve.   You might have heard of something called an "Extended Cut"?   They are seeking to improve their delivery of the story they envisioned.    

Not the same thing. That's a concession, that according to Mike Gamble, they didn't originally felt they needed, but are giving to those who (paraphrasing) 'didn't get it the first time'.

The fact that they're still sticking to their guns so defensively about something which is, objectively, a very flawed piece of storytelling, and won't hear or acknowledge the validity of any criticism of said story, is the very hubris I'm speaking of.

Kudos to Patrick Weekes for coming out and saying 'you know, _____ could have been done better, but ____ was surprisingly well done, and I'm proud of _____'.

That's an honest, unfettered appraisal - nothing's perfect in art or any creative endeavour, so trying to act otherwise is somewhat futile.


Until I see someone like Casey, Mac, Mike G or similar make a statement along the lines of 'yeah, we can understand why people might not like that, and they've got a point about _____ - we liked it, that's why we did it, but YMMV...', then I'm sticking with the idea that they're just too damn proud to admit that their baby isn't perfect.

[Canned Bullets]

Richard 060 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Richard 060 wrote...


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

Newsflash:  They are seeking to improve.   You might have heard of something called an "Extended Cut"?   They are seeking to improve their delivery of the story they envisioned.    

Not the same thing. That's a concession, that according to Mike Gamble, they didn't originally felt they needed, but are giving to those who (paraphrasing) 'didn't get it the first time'.

The fact that they're still sticking to their guns so defensively about something which is, objectively, a very flawed piece of storytelling, and won't hear or acknowledge the validity of any criticism of said story, is the very hubris I'm speaking of.

Kudos to Patrick Weekes for coming out and saying 'you know, _____ could have been done better, but ____ was surprisingly well done, and I'm proud of _____'.

That's an honest, unfettered appraisal - nothing's perfect in art or any creative endeavour, so trying to act otherwise is somewhat futile.


Until I see someone like Casey, Mac, Mike G or similar make a statement along the lines of 'yeah, we can understand why people might not like that, and they've got a point about _____ - we liked it, that's why we did it, but YMMV...', then I'm sticking with the idea that they're just too damn proud to admit that their baby isn't perfect.

Yeah, in the director's cut they'll just polish a turd because Bioware can't admit that the ending was crap. Like I said the entire ending needs to be rewritten by Drew Karpyshyn, and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT the involvement of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 11 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[Kepesk3]

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...



Disagree- the writing was good.

It had at least some autistic integrity...

Har har..... now you just look immature for making fun of autism. Congratulations

No, I made fun of BioWare and their press releases. Nothing bad was said about autism or people with developmental psychopatholigical behaviour-disorders in general.

But nice try...

Oftentimes this amounf of complicated words is an indication of an attempt to cover oneself because one realizes one's mistake but does not want to admit it.

Even more so if there is a spelling error

You do realize that I`m not a native english speaker and the terms are literal translations of the correct german term "Entwicklungspsychopathologische Verhaltensstörungen" which is the medical classification of diseases autism is part of. I admit, the terms are complicated, but as I had to study them, why not use them?

Trying to mock others by pointing out typos on the other hand... wll, I don't have learned anything about that behaviour in med-school. Life tought me however it's considered to be nitpicky. Further conversations between us may better be held in german, to not offend your sense of orthography.

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

[Abirn]

There is no artistic integrity in rushing a product to meet a release date. If it's considered art then you make the release date fit around the art itself not the other way around. (examples blizzard, valve)

[Richard 060]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Yeah, in the director's cut they'll just polish a turd because Bioware can't admit that the ending was crap. Like I said the entire ending needs to be rewritten by Drew Karpyshyn, and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT the involvement of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson.

Or, at the very least, subject the damned thing to peer review by the rest of the writing team!! 

According to the quotes attributed to Pat Weekes, this happened to every scene of the game, except the ending, which was just written by Mac/Casey, without any other input or critique. Almost like they had to put the 'icing on their own cake' - again with the hubris/ego...

Certainly, I find this to be entirely plausible - consider the quality of segments like Tuchanka or Grissom Academy compared to the ending. I find it difficult to believe that the writers on the team responsible for so many great scenes and moments in the game (and the previous games) would let something through the proverbial net that 1. contradicts so much of established lore, with no valid explanation or justification, and 2. fails to stand up to logical literary scrutiny as a piece of storytelling.

[Dragoonlordz]

No @ OP.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 avril 2012 - 10:00 .

[Tirigon]

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

You do realize that I`m not a native english speaker and the terms are literal translations of the correct german term "Entwicklungspsychopathologische Verhaltensstörungen" which is the medical classification of diseases autism is part of. I admit, the terms are complicated, but as I had to study them, why not use them?

Trying to mock others by pointing out typos on the other hand... wll, I don't have learned anything about that behaviour in med-school. Life tought me however it's considered to be nitpicky. Further conversations between us may better be held in german, to not offend your sense of orthography.

No I didnt at first, and it doesnt change my point in any way because "Entwicklungspsychopathologische Verhaltensstörungen" is also a word people only use to look intelligent.
As a student whose friends are mainly working class, I know that kind of thing well enough. They always mock me when I use such words^^

And I dont usually point out typos except in cases such as these because if you are trying to look intellectual, a typo is a very amusing irony in the post.

As for your last point: Könnten wir. Bin nämlich auch deutsch

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

Ratham wrote...

Artistic Integrity is another phrase for "We dun goofed"

Easier to defend crap rather than admit you're wrong.

Yeah. Easy for them to tell the media that we "don't understand", as well.

[Traim Eisenblut]

Tirigon wrote...

No I didnt at first, and it doesnt change my point in any way because "Entwicklungspsychopathologische Verhaltensstörungen" is also a word people only use to look intelligent.
As a student whose friends are mainly working class, I know that kind of thing well enough. They always mock me when I use such words^^

And I dont usually point out typos except in cases such as these because if you are trying to look intellectual, a typo is a very amusing irony in the post.

As for your last point: Könnten wir. Bin nämlich auch deutsch

As I said, I studied medicine and have no intentions to deny my academic origin. Using a term which is a valid classification of a psychiatric disorder is just the way I speak. I brought it up because I was accused of being offensive towards a part of our population by making fun of sick people, which I didn't do, so I clarified this by a correct and accurate denomination of the subject at hand. That is just a legit and reasonable argumentation to counter the inappropriate accusations.

Now that I have explained my intentions I would really like to know what point you intend to make by pointing out misspelling and accusing me of "trying to look intelligent"? Are you trying to look even more intelligent by that? No, that would be hypocritical.

[Ace Kenshader]

You really don't expect Bioware to completely re-write something that is so trivial as the ending do you?

Plus keep in mind that when you have to figure in removing the original ending and replacing it on future ME3 discs, working on the graphics to visualize the ending, re-write the data on the last fifteen minutes and making a script that will actually please you people, it will cost quite a chunk of cash for something that is frankly quite minor.