247 réponses à ce sujet

[The Razman]

Getorex wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Not this again.

It doesn't matter if you think it was bad writing. Artistic integrity applies to what the writer wrote, and is not subject to your opinion on what's good and what's bad.

People need to just get over it. Gamers have been fighting for artistic rights for games for decades, and now some idiots want to fight against artistic rights for games just because it suits their preferences. No.

This.

I'm now waiting with baited breath for the Retake Titanic movement, after all, an unsinkable ship sinks and the cute boy dies, what kind of lousy writing is that??? Rewrite I say!

Ya'll are religious fundamentalists.  This "artistic integrity" religion is bullcrap, same as all fundi crap.  There is no such thing as "artistic integrity".  Show it to me.  Show me any evidence anywhere at any time that this magical ray or particle exists.  It is all in your friggin' MIND and nowhere else.  NO ONE HAS "ARTISTIC INTEGRITY" and no thing has "artistic integrity".  They are mere mealymouthed words to excuse whatever the f*ck you want to excuse.

Drop your religious nonsense and grab 'hold of the real world baby.

I don't believe we're equipped to deal with people who can't separate abstract ideas from physical objects, sorry. We're not psychiatrists.

Artistic integrity is the name we give to not having your creative works be dictated or influenced by negative external pressures. If you can't get your mind round that philosophical idea, then I don't know what you want, sorry.

[Banelash]

as a web and graphics designer, I understand bioware's stand on their vision. I had a vision of a website, and I will try my darndest to make my customer agree with me, but, I will ultimately have to redo it if my customer hates certain things. Why? simple, they paid for it. I am doing commercial art.

[Zhuinden]

Canned Bullets wrote...

 And even if there was artistic integrity in ME3's ending, it wouldn't matter if the ending was changed because a lot of great writers have changed the endings to their works. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought back Sherlock Holmes from the dead, Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations, and Bethesda changed the ending of Fallout 3 by bringing the protagonist back to life.

What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity. Preferably with Drew Karpyshyn and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT Mac Walters and Casey Hudson's involvement. 

Anyone agree? 

Whenever I hear "Artistic integrity", this will always come to mind.

[InvincibleHero]

Getorex wrote...

Ya'll are religious fundamentalists.  This "artistic integrity" religion is bullcrap, same as all fundi crap.  There is no such thing as "artistic integrity".  Show it to me.  Show me any evidence anywhere at any time that this magical ray or particle exists.  It is all in your friggin' MIND and nowhere else.  NO ONE HAS "ARTISTIC INTEGRITY" and no thing has "artistic integrity".  They are mere mealymouthed words to excuse whatever the f*ck you want to excuse.

Drop your religious nonsense and grab 'hold of the real world baby.

Wow talk about an if I ignore things reality may change attitude. IT exists as defined by people. If you took art courses you can bet it would come up. Philosophy might ,but I never took a course. As I said it is simp,e it exists by virtue of an artist creating a work of art. In this case a piece of writing. The artist is the only one with rights to change this source material. Now if you buy a painting you can deface it, but cannot force the painter to do it themselves. They might if you offer enough money which means little.

Prove to me your anger exists as a physical particle show me where your consumer rights exist as a magical ray or beam then. Things exist and are defined even if they are not in your direct perceivable reality of getorex. It is a concept or a construct that has been defined and agreed upon by others. It is real so denying that makes you look bad.

[CARL_DF90]

Yeah, I hear ya' op. It's more or less absurd. Take a look at this vid here if you haven't aleady. It sums this up much more effectively than I could.

[Zhuinden]

The Razman wrote...

Getorex wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Not this again.

It doesn't matter if you think it was bad writing. Artistic integrity applies to what the writer wrote, and is not subject to your opinion on what's good and what's bad.

People need to just get over it. Gamers have been fighting for artistic rights for games for decades, and now some idiots want to fight against artistic rights for games just because it suits their preferences. No.

This.

I'm now waiting with baited breath for the Retake Titanic movement, after all, an unsinkable ship sinks and the cute boy dies, what kind of lousy writing is that??? Rewrite I say!

Ya'll are religious fundamentalists.  This "artistic integrity" religion is bullcrap, same as all fundi crap.  There is no such thing as "artistic integrity".  Show it to me.  Show me any evidence anywhere at any time that this magical ray or particle exists.  It is all in your friggin' MIND and nowhere else.  NO ONE HAS "ARTISTIC INTEGRITY" and no thing has "artistic integrity".  They are mere mealymouthed words to excuse whatever the f*ck you want to excuse.

Drop your religious nonsense and grab 'hold of the real world baby.

I don't believe we're equipped to deal with people who can't separate abstract ideas from physical objects, sorry. We're not psychiatrists.

Artistic integrity is the name we give to not having your creative works be dictated or influenced by negative external pressures. If you can't get your mind round that philosophical idea, then I don't know what you want, sorry.

I've heard this analogy from someone else, but the ME3 Ending is sort of like as if they had told you they're making you the most beautiful landscape of all-time with mountains and forests as a present for someone else, and when it's done, it's actually a grey cityscape of the 1970s.

There is a fine line between "artistic integrity" and deceit, and this is rather easily the second.



By the way, the Titanic's sinking was emotionally done, and it matched the narrative of the story. In ME3, the Catalyst is a whole new character out of the blue, who gives you options that don't make sense in match with the technological setting and the narrative that has built up until then, and has nothing to do with anything you've done prior to the ending.
That's not artistic, that's just stupid.

[xsdob]

That isn't true, if it were than breaking dawn would have been rewritten for the fan backlash it got for it's many questionable decisions, even in the context of a horribly written series.

It exist, artist can enforce it, the only thing is that much like asking for a supermajority in congress and the senate, all it does is make the person using the clause look like a giant douche.

[MassEffect762]

Canned Bullets wrote...

 And even if there was artistic integrity in ME3's ending, it wouldn't matter if the ending was changed because a lot of great writers have changed the endings to their works. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle brought back Sherlock Holmes from the dead, Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations, and Bethesda changed the ending of Fallout 3 by bringing the protagonist back to life.

What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity. Preferably with Drew Karpyshyn and the rest of the ME3 writing team WITHOUT Mac Walters and Casey Hudson's involvement. 

Anyone agree? 

YUUUPP!

[CARL_DF90]

@ MassEffect762
^ Yeah, more or less. The more those people at Bioware argue for their so called "artistic integrity" the more absurd it sounds. Just check out the vid I posted a few posts above.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 12 avril 2012 - 04:53 .

[Koju737]

Im not sure why everyone is up in arms about this... whats wrong with artistic integrity? Why and how is it BS? If this were just about any other video game company, and the publisher was forcing the company to change the ending, people would be up in arms, defending "artistic integrity". But all of a sudden its ok for BW to sell out, just as long as its for a certain group of fans? Huh? its hypocrisy at its finest. Whether the ending is bad or good is irrelevant. The team came up with an ending and produced it. They thought it up, they put money and man hours into creating it. Its theirs. They can do whatever the hell they want with it. They're choosing to stand by what they wrote while adding clarification. Why should they have to change anything involving the story simply because people didnt like it?

[CARL_DF90]

@ Koju737

Check out the vid I posted and another by the same auther of the vid that describes the problems with the ending. It explains everything quite clearly.

[FlamingBoy]

agreed op

[Xevious550]

Complain all you like... Bioware simply cannot remove the ending and rework it. Regardless of your in game decisions, it pretty much boils down to you hitting a magic button (or shooting it) to deal with the Reaper threat. The crucible was just a bad idea from the start. And adding new ending would require them to get the cast back in the studio, graphics/scenes to be redone, etc. Then what happens to the ME3 discs with the old ending? Do they get scrapped and reproduced? Do they put a sticker on the box with instructions on how to download the "real" ending? Your talking a lot of money to get this done.

It isn't going to happen. So you might as well not lose sleep over it. The best we can hope for is a dragons Age: Origins type ending that fills us in via text on what happens to certain races/characters based on our decisions. Hopefully that'll happen with this summer's update. Then maybe they can release some type of dlc that works within the framework of this ending. But that's it. We aren't getting much else.

[Koju737]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

@ Koju737

Check out the vid I posted and another by the same auther of the vid that describes the problems with the ending. It explains everything quite clearly.

Ive watched those videos and it doesnt explain anything at all. Its all just useless fan rage. Same with that angry joe guy everyone keeps posting. Sure, are the plot holes bad? Yes, it shouldnt have happened but they seem to be clarifying it, which I appreciate. Everything else is completely subjective. Starchild, the relay situation, the final choices... its all based on opinion. As far as Im concerned I lay squarley in the middle. Starchild annoyed me, but I loved what happened with the relays and final choices made sense to me given the themes of the entire series. Am I wrong? No, I just have a different opinion on the matter.

Modifié par Koju737, 12 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[CARL_DF90]

@ Xevious550

That's why the Indoctrination Theory is so popular right now. Not only does it make the most sense from a story perspective but it will allow the old scenarios to remain and then would allow the add-ons to work. We'll see what happens.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 12 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[Calbeb]

What is OBJECTIVELY bad about the ending. Plot holes. What are they trying to clear up with free DLC... Plot Holes.

Everything else is opinion and dissatisfaction.

As for artistic intergrity, if you write a novel intended to put people through an emotional rollercoaster, they feel the emotions for 90% of it, and then the book falls apart it isn't suddenly NOT an artistic product. It's just an artistic product with a major fault, like pretty much every piece of non-classic art in existance.

[gbemery]

Easier to defend crap rather than admit you're wrong.

But thats weird because the Dragon Age team basically admitted they f'd up and they joked about it but didn't fly the banner of "artistic integrity" they joked and had a good time with their fans...why can't the ME 3 team do the same? I am confuzzled

[Koju737]

Calbeb wrote...

What is OBJECTIVELY bad about the ending. Plot holes. What are they trying to clear up with free DLC... Plot Holes.

Everything else is opinion and dissatisfaction.

As for artistic intergrity, if you write a novel intended to put people through an emotional rollercoaster, they feel the emotions for 90% of it, and then the book falls apart it isn't suddenly NOT an artistic product. It's just an artistic product with a major fault, like pretty much every piece of non-classic art in existance.

QFT

[CARL_DF90]

Koju737 wrote...

CARL_DF90 wrote...

@ Koju737

Check out the vid I posted and another by the same auther of the vid that describes the problems with the ending. It explains everything quite clearly.

Ive watched those videos and it doesnt explain anything at all. Its all just useless fan rage. Same with that angry joe guy everyone keeps posting. Sure, are the plot holes bad? Yes, it shouldnt have happened but they seem to be clarifying it, which I appreciate. Everything else is completely objective. Starchild, the relay situation, the final choices... its all based on opinion. As far as Im concerned I lay squarley in the middle. Starchild annoyed me, but I loved what happened with the relays and final choices made sense to me given the themes of the entire series. Am I wrong? No, I just have a different opinion on the matter.

If you really watched the vids you must have been so distracted by his sarcastic (although entertaining) style that you missed the point. If that is the case than you will have to figure it out on your own because many points that were brought up were facts and not just opinions if you paid attention to the details. And yes although your opinion on the matter is different for sure it is also mistaken.

There is such a thing as a mistaken opinion. Example one, I could look up and say the sky is green when in fact it is blue. I would obviously be mistaken if either a.) I was color blind or b.) didn't know any better. To go even further, I met someone once who was of an opinion that committing a certain kind of crime (which I will NOT repeat here) was an ok thing to do. That was his opinion but was he correct? Uh, no he was not. Everyone has opinions but the important thing to do at times is consider facts first and try to leave opinion out of the equation as much as possible. The auther of those vids had many opinions yes but those were very well done and backed up by facts that supported his claims. In short, we all will have varying types of opinions because that is part of being human. However, when there are facts and evidence that invalidate said opinion it should be considered.

[evisneffo]

A lot of time and effort went into implementing the ending as part of the game and the team responsible obviously believed in it enough to see it through. No matter how bad people think it is, it doesn't take away the fact that this is a creative product, as well as a commercial one, and they have the right to stand by it. You don't have the right to deny their wish to maintain the integrity of their vision, regardless of your opinion. I don't like the ending either, but painting it in absolutes ("your defence is rubbish because the ending is terrible!") strikes me as a little insulting and doesn't help anyone.

Modifié par evisneffo, 12 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[ShepardTheHopeful]

I'm going to explain my displeasure in a logical calm manner.

Did I understand the ending. Yes.

Did I like it. Not in the least.

The reason is what I like to call the hyper fall solution.

When a games expectations are raised so highly that anything other than that which follows the pace of the game cannot possibly match the expectations of the reader.

For example. If Harry and Voldemort had become friends at the end and Voldemort changed his ways. Or if in lord of the rings Frodo trips the ring of power hits a rock and breaks.

This game was set up for such a high rise not only from commercials and advertisement of promises of much more, but the game itself lead for a very high rising action. Mass effect 3 in it's own way is epic the resolution with the genophage, the battle on Thessia the conversation with TIM (though a bit lacking I was still rather happy with the scene and developed my own reasoning)

But it's after TIM that the ending occurs. And it just doesn't match the pace of the rest of the game. It's like if you ran a marathon and you were about to win but decided to take a 10 minute break right at the finish line letting others pass you until you decide to just walk through it. Yes you're not in last place but you're certainly not in first.

The starchild ending is a completely different paced reality from that of the entire game. It brings everything to an abrupt and forced stop. I understand the ideals of everyone else red green blue being bad etc. But to me it's that complete change of pace that makes me mad. It's the fact that a story can raise me up to such an explosive point, only to sizzle at the end.

The ending is fine but incomplete to the rest of the story there are things it needs added to make it better closure mainly. I don't need to know the Reapers origins though it would be nice. I don't need their motivations they're quite clear. What I do want is a resolution with the party you're love interest saying sweet words over your grave should you die or rather should she/he believe you died based on your assets.

There's no resolution which is necessary to complete any great story.

Now for the artistic integrity thing.

It's very hard to take that seriously for 3 reasons. 1) The defense of artistic integrity wasn't used by them. At all it was a defense from fans and reviewers/media towards bioware. If you remember Bioware never used the words until PAX. It was when the DLC was announced that suddenly the idea of artistic integrity became an important and known fact with Casey and Mac. The coincidence is too strange it feels like a cop out and a lie to me no matter how I look at it.

2) In a very large way the game isn't that artistically original. It's based very strongly off star trek. Even the idea of the reapers is based off the Borg. I'm not even a big star trek fan and I can see that the resemblances can be rather uncanny at most times. Sometimes I even make jokes saying "Shepard couldn't find green women so he went for blue" But it's in all good fun. I love the series it's one of my favorites. But the idea of saying the ending was to preserve artistic originality and integrity is laughable at best. Casey and Walter are having a little too much ego and a little less humility which is a trait all writers should have. They should be humble to learn and grown not stubborn to keep repeating if you like your work fine but don't refuse to talk about it hiding behind a veil of "artistic integrity" Even the space child AI has been done many a time and is a carbon copy of the RE girl AI. I mean both are British, both are arrogant, both are hated, and both believe that killing most of you is better for the greater good.

3) A team created this game not just one writer or one man. Multiple writers, designers, and imagineers (yes i'm using this term), worked daily to try and create this amazing game. THen at the last part the most important part the closure, two men decided to keep all the ending to themselves. Especially because my favorite writer John at Bioware was the writer for both the resolution of the Genophage, and the Quarian/Geth conflict. Two scenes which were loved by almost every fan of the series.

But if you're going to pull an artistic integrity defense and you did not even let your team who helped you build this game chapter to chapter have a say in that ending, then you cannot call it integrity. You can only call it egotistical. So no I don't see it as integrity because two men decided to keep the glory and disappeared when it backfired. Leaving the other writers like John to answer fans at PAX to try and give explinations and promises that Hudson and Walter couldn't bother to inform us.

The lead writer and producer won't even talk to us yet the other staff are on twitter and forums around the clock trying to assure us.

So remind me how is this ending artistic integrity?

Take it how you want but that's my opinion.

[Drake_Hound]

@evisnoff , interesting , wow very interesting .

Meaning you state nothing and really nothing cause nothing is a opnion of yours .
other then a bunch of facts rammed together .
Says everything about the ending, maybe that is what is nowadays is wrong with people.

They don't actually have a opnion , cause they cannot formulate there own toughts .
Aside from one liners to cover themself and joke around .
There is nothing of personal value added to the context .
It is almost like hello what a nice weather , yes it is sunny .... then the conversation stops .

Sorry this was not a attempt at sarcasme , just a very interesting observation .
No wonder endings like these can excist as art .

[Koju737]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Koju737 wrote...

CARL_DF90 wrote...

@ Koju737

Check out the vid I posted and another by the same auther of the vid that describes the problems with the ending. It explains everything quite clearly.

Ive watched those videos and it doesnt explain anything at all. Its all just useless fan rage. Same with that angry joe guy everyone keeps posting. Sure, are the plot holes bad? Yes, it shouldnt have happened but they seem to be clarifying it, which I appreciate. Everything else is completely subjective. Starchild, the relay situation, the final choices... its all based on opinion. As far as Im concerned I lay squarley in the middle. Starchild annoyed me, but I loved what happened with the relays and final choices made sense to me given the themes of the entire series. Am I wrong? No, I just have a different opinion on the matter.

If you really watched the vids you must have been so distracted by his sarcastic (although entertaining) style that you missed the point. If that is the case than you will have to figure it out on your own because many points that were brought up were facts and not just opinions if you paid attention to the details. And yes although your opinion on the matter is different for sure it is also mistaken.

There is such a thing as a mistaken opinion. Example one, I could look up and say the sky is green when in fact it is blue. I would obviously be mistaken if either a.) I was color blind or b.) didn't know any better. To go even further, I met someone once who was of an opinion that committing a certain kind of crime (which I will NOT repeat here) was an ok thing to do. That was his opinion but was he correct? Uh, no he was not. Everyone has opinions but the important thing to do at times is consider facts first and try to leave opinion out of the equation as much as possible. The auther of those vids had many opinions yes but those were very well done and backed up by facts that supported his claims. In short, we all will have varying types of opinions because that is part of being human. However, when there are facts and evidence that invalidate said opinion it should be considered.

I am not "mistaken". There are no such facts and evidence that invalidate my opinion or anyone elses. Liking the ending to a video game is a hell of a lot different then mistaking the color of the sky for green. That analogy makes absolutley no sense. One deals with facts the other deals with opinions. It is not a fact that the ending is "bad" therefore its impossible to be wrong about it. Is it a fact that a lot of people dissapointed with the endings? Yes but it doesnt mean anything as far as the artistic integrity thing goes. Opinions on almost all things, while sometimes influenced by facts, are not universal facts, plain and simple. Killing people may be wrong in your eyes, and it certainly is in mine, but that does not make it a universal truth. Its phsycology 101. Almost noone believes what they are doing or what they think is wrong, even the worlds most evil people. 
               To get back on topic here though, people are basically beating a dead horse here. BW are not changing the ending, plain and simple. Its pointless to argue about artistic integrity at this point.

[incinerator950]

Right, if I become a serial killer, my defense for pleading Not-Guilty will be protecting my Artistic Integrity for murder.

Seriously, the people arguing against it are as absurd as the people using it to defend their interests or justification, which is still a valid point from one perspective that doesn't fit this giant pile.

[CARL_DF90]

@Koju737

Oy. You missed the point but nevermind. I'm not going to contribute anymore to the derailing of this thread's subject.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 12 avril 2012 - 06:08 .