247 réponses à ce sujet

[evisneffo]

Drake_Hound wrote...

@evisnoff , interesting , wow very interesting .

Meaning you state nothing and really nothing cause nothing is a opnion of yours .
other then a bunch of facts rammed together .
Says everything about the ending, maybe that is what is nowadays is wrong with people.

They don't actually have a opnion , cause they cannot formulate there own toughts .
Aside from one liners to cover themself and joke around .
There is nothing of personal value added to the context .
It is almost like hello what a nice weather , yes it is sunny .... then the conversation stops .

Sorry this was not a attempt at sarcasme , just a very interesting observation .
No wonder endings like these can excist as art .

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're taking issue with. I have an opinion and I stated it.

I don't like the ending.

I understand that people don't like the ending, but I don't believe that this automatically invalidates the creator's right to stand by what they created.

I mentioned that the team put effort into the ending and believed in it enough to make it happen, which I'm guessing is what you mean by fact. This doesn't invalidate anything either. We can all still say the ending was terrible and we'd like it to be changed. What I argued there is that there's no reason we should attack them for wanting to defend their own work.

These are beliefs of mine, and it would be stupid to try and pass them off as facts.

Modifié par evisneffo, 12 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[Koju737]

incinerator950 wrote...

Right, if I become a serial killer, my defense for pleading Not-Guilty will be protecting my Artistic Integrity for murder.

Seriously, the people arguing against it are as absurd as the people using it to defend their interests or justification, which is still a valid point from one perspective that doesn't fit this giant pile.

If you are refering to what I said, you missed the point entirely. Im not defending serial killers nor am I saying that "aristic integrity" is valid justification for murdering people... artistic integrity has nothing to do with that, and Im glad there are laws to keep the peace and society civil. What I WAS saying was that, when it comes down to whats good or bad, there is no correct opinion. That was in response to the other guy saying that my opinion was "mistaken".
        

[METALPUNKS]

 This whole "artistic integrity" road that Bioware is going down is actually odd to me. Here's why. I've always thought of Mass Effect as a game that allows me to be the artist, I choose. At the end of Mass Effect 2 there were truly different outcomes. I chose if Shepard lives or dies, if I chose death then Mass Effect 3 would mean nothing for that character I created. This whole time Bioware has allowed us to be the artist and if they want to throw around artistic integrity then we should be able to claim this also. At the end of ME3 I was faced with three similar endings, I was forced to give up my artistic integrity because Bioware took it from me at the end. They allowed us to have it this whole time, they sold us on the idea and made a ton of money off of it and then made it so we have very limited choices when all is said and done. So the only people sacrificing "artistic integrity" are the fans not the writers. Sure they give us the tools but really we are the ones working with those tools and creating the art. 


 I tried to explain what I think the best way possible. They gave us artistic integrity. Now they just add on a few scenes and call it a day but still the fan who made their own story, the fan that was the real artist all along has to lose his or hers integrity by settling for an ending that they had nothing to do with. Normally this wouldn't be a big deal but with Mass Effect that's why we loved the game. That's the real reason we all played it and at the most important part it's gone. 

Modifié par METALPUNKS, 12 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[METALPUNKS]

METALPUNKS wrote...

 This whole "artistic integrity" road that Bioware is going down is actually odd to me. Here's why. I've always thought of Mass Effect as a game that allows me to be the artist, I choose. At the end of Mass Effect 2 there were truly different outcomes. I chose if Shepard lives or dies, if I chose death then Mass Effect 3 would mean nothing for that character I created. This whole time Bioware has allowed us to be the artist and if they want to throw around artistic integrity then we should be able to claim this also. At the end of ME3 I was faced with three similar endings, I was forced to give up my artistic integrity because Bioware took it from me at the end. They allowed us to have it this whole time, they sold us on the idea and made a ton of money off of it and then made it so we have very limited choices when all is said and done. So the only people sacrificing "artistic integrity" are the fans not the writers. Sure they give us the tools but really we are the ones working with those tools and creating the art. 


 I tried to explain what I think the best way possible. They gave us artistic freedom from day one. Now they just add on a few scenes and call it a day but still the fan who made their own story, the fan that was the real artist all along has to lose his or hers integrity by settling for an ending that they had nothing to do with. Normally this wouldn't be a big deal but with Mass Effect that's why we loved the game. That's the real reason we all played it and at the most important part it's gone. 

[Zhuinden]

evisneffo wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

@evisnoff , interesting , wow very interesting .

Meaning you state nothing and really nothing cause nothing is a opnion of yours .
other then a bunch of facts rammed together .
Says everything about the ending, maybe that is what is nowadays is wrong with people.

They don't actually have a opnion , cause they cannot formulate there own toughts .
Aside from one liners to cover themself and joke around .
There is nothing of personal value added to the context .
It is almost like hello what a nice weather , yes it is sunny .... then the conversation stops .

Sorry this was not a attempt at sarcasme , just a very interesting observation .
No wonder endings like these can excist as art .

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're taking issue with. I have an opinion and I stated it.

I don't like the ending.

I understand that people don't like the ending, but I don't believe that this automatically invalidates the creator's right to stand by what they created.

I mentioned that the team put effort into the ending and believed in it enough to make it happen, which I'm guessing is what you mean by fact. This doesn't invalidate anything either. We can all still say the ending was terrible and we'd like it to be changed. What I argued there is that there's no reason we should attack them for wanting to defend their own work.

These are beliefs of mine, and it would be stupid to try and pass them off as facts.

If they defended their work with facts (as in, why exactly does this qualify as a satisfactory ending, what they were thinking and discuss it in a reasonable manner instead of just hiding and spewing PR speak to just ****** fans off even more), then people wouldn't be so eager to attempt to invalidate their buzzword catchphrase.of "artistic integrity".

But they do know that they were being cheap, they did it in the last seconds possible and didn't practically give a damn about the result. Have you seen the timetable image? The beginning and ending were made in November. That's when the game was originally supposed to come out - so they just went and crisis-controlled this bull**** together instead of making an ending that actually makes sense, yay?
If they didn't know that the ending sucks, they would actually come here and protect it with facts and logical points to show why their vision of the ending works. But they do know, that's why there's only *silence*.

[bleetman]

Considering that their orginal intention was apparently to be sufficiently vague and misleading in order to trigger SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE, releasing explanatory dlc is already going against their 'artistic integrity'. Short version, it's just an excuse. One they need to stop hiding behind.

Personally, I'd also rank the integrity of the writing above that of the writer, but hey. That's just me.

Modifié par bleetman, 12 avril 2012 - 06:36 .

[Zhuinden]

bleetman wrote...

Considering that their orginal intention was apparently to be sufficiently vague and misleading in order to trigger SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE, releasing explanatory dlc is already going against their 'artistic integrity'. Short version, it's just an excuse. One they need to stop hiding behind.

Personally, I'd also rank the integrity of the writing above that of the writer, but hey. That's just me.

Oh, right. I even forgot about that - they never clearly defined the ending and left it loose because it's easier if the fans do it for them. It's a shame this is a trilogy with well-defined variables, so that doesn't work.

[METALPUNKS]

[quote]The PLC wrote...
[quote]METALPUNKS wrote...
[quote]METALPUNKS  [/quote] 
Quoting your own post doesn't make it any more valid. You still don't make any sense.[/quote] my phone screws up seriously on this forum. It does things I have no control over. Like calling you a.,.,,

Modifié par METALPUNKS, 12 avril 2012 - 06:48 .

[CARL_DF90]

Zhuinden wrote...

evisneffo wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

@evisnoff , interesting , wow very interesting .

Meaning you state nothing and really nothing cause nothing is a opnion of yours .
other then a bunch of facts rammed together .
Says everything about the ending, maybe that is what is nowadays is wrong with people.

They don't actually have a opnion , cause they cannot formulate there own toughts .
Aside from one liners to cover themself and joke around .
There is nothing of personal value added to the context .
It is almost like hello what a nice weather , yes it is sunny .... then the conversation stops .

Sorry this was not a attempt at sarcasme , just a very interesting observation .
No wonder endings like these can excist as art .

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're taking issue with. I have an opinion and I stated it.

I don't like the ending.

I understand that people don't like the ending, but I don't believe that this automatically invalidates the creator's right to stand by what they created.

I mentioned that the team put effort into the ending and believed in it enough to make it happen, which I'm guessing is what you mean by fact. This doesn't invalidate anything either. We can all still say the ending was terrible and we'd like it to be changed. What I argued there is that there's no reason we should attack them for wanting to defend their own work.

These are beliefs of mine, and it would be stupid to try and pass them off as facts.

If they defended their work with facts (as in, why exactly does this qualify as a satisfactory ending, what they were thinking and discuss it in a reasonable manner instead of just hiding and spewing PR speak to just ****** fans off even more), then people wouldn't be so eager to attempt to invalidate their buzzword catchphrase.of "artistic integrity".

But they do know that they were being cheap, they did it in the last seconds possible and didn't practically give a damn about the result. Have you seen the timetable image? The beginning and ending were made in November. That's when the game was originally supposed to come out - so they just went and crisis-controlled this bull**** together instead of making an ending that actually makes sense, yay?
If they didn't know that the ending sucks, they would actually come here and protect it with facts and logical points to show why their vision of the ending works. But they do know, that's why there's only *silence*.

Since this meme never gets old I wil use it.

"I like this human! He understands!"

[evisneffo]

Zhuinden wrote...

If they defended their work with facts (as in, why exactly does this qualify as a satisfactory ending, what they were thinking and discuss it in a reasonable manner instead of just hiding and spewing PR speak to just ****** fans off even more), then people wouldn't be so eager to attempt to invalidate their buzzword catchphrase.of "artistic integrity".
*snip*

Yeah, that's a good point. While I believe both that the ending was poor and that they have the right to defend a poor ending, there hasn't been much in the way of an in-depth defence of the actual content of the ending.

With regards to your other post about an open-ended ending, I agree that it hasn't been done well. It's fine to leave some things open for interpretation, but it's a different story when you need speculation to build an understanding of the story from the ground up.

bleetman wrote...

Personally, I'd also rank the integrity of the writing above that of the writer, but hey. That's just me.

That's a good point too.

[Tirigon]

Traim Eisenblut wrote...

As I said, I studied medicine and have no intentions to deny my academic origin. Using a term which is a valid classification of a psychiatric disorder is just the way I speak. I brought it up because I was accused of being offensive towards a part of our population by making fun of sick people, which I didn't do, so I clarified this by a correct and accurate denomination of the subject at hand. That is just a legit and reasonable argumentation to counter the inappropriate accusations.

Now that I have explained my intentions I would really like to know what point you intend to make by pointing out misspelling and accusing me of "trying to look intelligent"? Are you trying to look even more intelligent by that? No, that would be hypocritical.

I am merely pointing out that your background of having studied medicine is not apparent, and therefore, by mere value of statistics, the first assumption is that you are stupid and arrogant - after all, so is the majority of peopleB)

Of course, you explained that this first impression was wrong, so no harm done:)

[Travie]

Drew's ending is the canon ending in my mind (the dark energy ending), the writers that took over decided to destroy his vision and make something nonsensical and horrible.

Really is a tragedy.

[Gosia]

Canned Bullets wrote...

mikelope wrote...

Criticize ME3 or Bioware's artistic integrity but not 'artistic integrity' itself, please. In some cases it has been used with validity against religious zealots, homophobes, etc.

And yes, there can be artistic integrity in bad writing as long as the bad writer believes in it. Artistic integrity has nothing to do with the work itself but with the artist.

Bioware is making artistic integrity look like a token argument because they keep essentially saying "Ugh, the masses are far too ignorant to understand our art!" so in a sense Bioware is ruining it for other artists who use artistic integrity to defend their work from zealots and homophobes.

Also, an artist threatened by zealots and homophobes would not use the arguement for artistic integrity, they would use the argument for freedom of expression.

You know they cannot actually use the argument about masses not understanding art because games are pop art not high art, their first aim being to satisfy the buyer/customer/reader later to discuss their art . Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that pop art isn't art only cliche and such; it is art but its first aim is the one I've mentioned.

[RACDB]

Whine should be a crime.

[Thoth_Amon]

Bioware hasn't had any artistic integrity for a long time.  It's insane they have the gall to say that when they used stock ****ing Google Image Search photos for in-game assets.  ****ing hacks.

[Gosia]

RACDB wrote...

Whine should be a crime.

Could you clarify a bit?

[Gigamantis]

The writing in the ending was fine. There's no artistic integrity in acquiescing to uninformed, untalented "writers" on your forums.

[MrTijger]

Gosia wrote...

You know they cannot actually use the argument about masses not understanding art because games are pop art not high art, their first aim being to satisfy the buyer/customer/reader later to discuss their art . Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that pop art isn't art only cliche and such; it is art but its first aim is the one I've mentioned.

So, if I dont appreciate, like or understand, say, a Warhol picture it stops being art? Well, thats good to know.

Modifié par MrTijger, 12 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[Gosia]

MrTijger wrote...

Gosia wrote...

You know they cannot actually use the argument about masses not understanding art because games are pop art not high art, their first aim being to satisfy the buyer/customer/reader later to discuss their art . Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that pop art isn't art only cliche and such; it is art but its first aim is the one I've mentioned.

So, if I dont appreciate, like or understand, say, a Warhol picture it stops being art? Well, thats good to know.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't use here words stating that something ever stops being art if even 1 person doesn't understan/appreciate it. And besides it's difficult not to understand Warhol  

[slimgrin]

Canned Bullets wrote...

What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity.

I've been saying this from the beginning. To fix the ending means doing major surgery, and since Bioware isn't going to do that, but instead retcon even more...

What the f*ck is the point?

Just let them move on.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 avril 2012 - 04:50 .