247 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Legion64 wrote...

"Artistic Integrity" is just an excuse.

[iamzer0xx]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arsenic Touch wrote...

You can't hide behind buzz words like "artistic integrity" when you've already violated it by listening to fans previously for the game. But it doesn't stop them from trying.

Exactly. 

The claim that altering the endings would violate their artistic integrity is laughable when you consider that gay romance options, the Tali and Garrus romances, the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, and Aethyta being Liara's father are all examples of things that ended up in the game because of fan requests.

What do you pompus brats even know about art? Get off the forums and practice some art and you would be surprised in the amount of time and effort it requires.

[masterthehero]

As Sten would say:

"No."

[slimgrin]

iamzer0xx wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Arsenic Touch wrote...

You can't hide behind buzz words like "artistic integrity" when you've already violated it by listening to fans previously for the game. But it doesn't stop them from trying.

Exactly. 

The claim that altering the endings would violate their artistic integrity is laughable when you consider that gay romance options, the Tali and Garrus romances, the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, and Aethyta being Liara's father are all examples of things that ended up in the game because of fan requests.

What do you pompus brats even know about art? Get off the forums and practice some art and you would be surprised in the amount of time and effort it requires.

They don't need to practice art to arrive at those conclusions, only logic. You're the one being pompous.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 avril 2012 - 05:09 .

[Vincent Rosevalliant]

Richard 060 wrote...

Probably the best way to summarise it is thusly:

It's no loss to 'artistic integrity' to listen to your audience, take on constructive criticism, and use it to make your art better.

To put your fingers in your ears, ignore any opinion that isn't fawningly positive, and declare your 'art' above criticism, because changing it would damage your 'integrity' (despite it being intrinsically flawed, from an objective standpoint), though?

That's not a sign of 'integrity'. That's hubris, ego, and foolish pride.


As an artist m'self (professional musician - concert-hall soloist, natch, so I'd like to think I know what I'm banging on about, here...), you can't declare yourself to have 'artistic integrity' if you're still shackled by your ego. Be objective, be logical, and look at your creative output from the perspective of the audience, and try to understand their point of view - and if you find yourself agreeing with it, make changes.


Or, to put it bluntly, in the words of a great Jazz musician hero of mine:


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

Well said.

[shinyelf]

Once upon a time I watched a movie, the movie was called "Finding Forrester" in the movie there is a brilliant quote, which does (to some degree) fit in this discussion, the quote was:
"I did not write it for them"
This is stating that he as the artist decides what goes in the book(or game in this case) and that he should not write in a certain way just to appease a fanbase.
I feel the same goes for Bioware, they should not have to change something for the "fans" If something is to be changed it should e done by Biowares choice, because after all they are the artists, and it is important that their integrity remain intact (both integrity and artistic integrity)

[iamzer0xx]

slimgrin wrote...

iamzer0xx wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Arsenic Touch wrote...

You can't hide behind buzz words like "artistic integrity" when you've already violated it by listening to fans previously for the game. But it doesn't stop them from trying.

Exactly. 

The claim that altering the endings would violate their artistic integrity is laughable when you consider that gay romance options, the Tali and Garrus romances, the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, and Aethyta being Liara's father are all examples of things that ended up in the game because of fan requests.

What do you pompus brats even know about art? Get off the forums and practice some art and you would be surprised in the amount of time and effort it requires.

They don't need to practice art to arrive at those conclusions, only logic. You're the one being pompous.

They absoltely do. You sit here on the forums and you try to make someone change their work because it doesn't suit your preferences. Go to hell, this is not just an insult to the artists involved in the game, but to artists in general. It's an insult to me, as a musician, how dare you spit on IA, people have bled and died for it. Suffered for it from ignrant assclowns like yourself. You have zero understanding of what art is until you have practiced and endured the hardship. 

[Fiery Phoenix]

Arsenic Touch wrote...

You can't hide behind buzz words like "artistic integrity" when you've already violated it by listening to fans previously for the game. But it doesn't stop them from trying.

Too true.

[DannieCraft]

I think, if you truly want everything to be rewritten, there is something called "fan-fiction", and it gives you the right to write exactly what you want. In that way, you can have your own artistic integrity as well as BioWare have theirs. I am happy with BioWares current decision to expand upon the current ending instead of changing it. 

[Amioran]

Vincent Rosevalliant wrote...

Richard 060 wrote...

Probably the best way to summarise it is thusly:

It's no loss to 'artistic integrity' to listen to your audience, take on constructive criticism, and use it to make your art better.

To put your fingers in your ears, ignore any opinion that isn't fawningly positive, and declare your 'art' above criticism, because changing it would damage your 'integrity' (despite it being intrinsically flawed, from an objective standpoint), though?

That's not a sign of 'integrity'. That's hubris, ego, and foolish pride.


As an artist m'self (professional musician - concert-hall soloist, natch, so I'd like to think I know what I'm banging on about, here...), you can't declare yourself to have 'artistic integrity' if you're still shackled by your ego. Be objective, be logical, and look at your creative output from the perspective of the audience, and try to understand their point of view - and if you find yourself agreeing with it, make changes.


Or, to put it bluntly, in the words of a great Jazz musician hero of mine:


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

Well said.

No. At all.

The only thing that post does is missing completely the point (as always).

Let's see if repeating it for the now the 100th time makes people understand the concept:

Artistic Integrity is not "violated" by the artist listening to audience etc. and changing the work (if s/he so decides).
Artistic Intergity is violated if the audience PRETENDS the change in the work.

It is the artist that decides, not the audience. It is not the change per se that violates the artistic integrity but the way the change is approached by external causes.

The concept is the same as rape. Rape violates integrity of a woman but if she has sex with a man (willingly) that naturally doesn't violate her integrity.

What people in this thread like to pretend is that rape and sex are the same thing. You talk about sex as if it was the same thing as rape, having the same parameters.

Why people do this here? Because they are so idiot that cannot understand the difference? It can be, but I bet it's much easier that they simply like to twist the thing in the way the like so they can have a point and assume they can pretend what no sane person could ever do.

As for "bad" and "good" writing tied to this,  the concept is the same. If a woman is not beautiful then rape is less violating to her than it is to a beautiful woman? It doesn't make sense, isn't it?

So, before posting something think a little more about what you are going to post, then think again a little more then it's better if you don't post at all (given the trend).

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2012 - 05:42 .

[slimgrin]

iamzer0xx wrote...


They absoltely do. You sit here on the forums and you try to make someone change their work because it doesn't suit your preferences. Go to hell, this is not just an insult to the artists involved in the game, but to artists in general. It's an insult to me, as a musician, how dare you spit on IA, people have bled and died for it. Suffered for it from ignrant assclowns like yourself. You have zero understanding of what art is until you have practiced and endured the hardship. 

Listen Mr. bleeding heart, I am an artist. I know what a person has to go through to make a living as an artist. I also am not one those saying they should change the ending. I don't think they should.

And I ain't an assclown, whatever that is.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[iamzer0xx]

Amioran wrote...

Vincent Rosevalliant wrote...

Richard 060 wrote...

Probably the best way to summarise it is thusly:

It's no loss to 'artistic integrity' to listen to your audience, take on constructive criticism, and use it to make your art better.

To put your fingers in your ears, ignore any opinion that isn't fawningly positive, and declare your 'art' above criticism, because changing it would damage your 'integrity' (despite it being intrinsically flawed, from an objective standpoint), though?

That's not a sign of 'integrity'. That's hubris, ego, and foolish pride.


As an artist m'self (professional musician - concert-hall soloist, natch, so I'd like to think I know what I'm banging on about, here...), you can't declare yourself to have 'artistic integrity' if you're still shackled by your ego. Be objective, be logical, and look at your creative output from the perspective of the audience, and try to understand their point of view - and if you find yourself agreeing with it, make changes.


Or, to put it bluntly, in the words of a great Jazz musician hero of mine:


"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."

Well said.

No. At all.

The only thing that post does is missing completely the point (as always).

Let's see if repeating it for the now the 100th time makes people understand the concept:

Artistic Integrity is not "violated" by the artist listening to audience etc. and changing the work (if s/he so decides).
Artistic Intergity is violated if the audience PRETENDS the change in the work.

It is the artist that decides, not the audience. It is not the change per se that violates the artistic integrity but the way the change is approached by external causes.

The concept is the same as rape. Rape violates integrity of a woman but if she has sex with a man (willingly) that naturally doesn't violate her integrity.

What people in this thread like to pretend is that rape and sex are the same thing. You talk about sex as if it was the same thing as rape, having the same parameters.

Why people do this here? Because they are so idiot that cannot understand the difference? It can be, but I bet it's much easier that they simply like to twist the thing in the way the like so they can have a point and assume they can pretend what no sane person could ever do.

As for "bad" and "good" writing tied to this,  the concept is the same. If a woman is not beautiful then rape is less violating to her than it is to a beautiful woman? It doesn't make sense, isn't it?

So, before posting something think a little more about what you are going to post, then think again a little more then it's better if you don't post at all (given the trend).

Precisely this. Although the rape anaology was odd, but I guess it applies. Most people who object have no understanding of art, I would say. So the distinction is rather difficult for them. 

[iamzer0xx]

Modifié par iamzer0xx, 12 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[iamzer0xx]

iamzer0xx wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

iamzer0xx wrote...


They absoltely do. You sit here on the forums and you try to make someone change their work because it doesn't suit your preferences. Go to hell, this is not just an insult to the artists involved in the game, but to artists in general. It's an insult to me, as a musician, how dare you spit on IA, people have bled and died for it. Suffered for it from ignrant assclowns like yourself. You have zero understanding of what art is until you have practiced and endured the hardship. 

Listen Mr. bleeding heart, I am an artist. I know what a person has to go through to make a living as an artist. I also am not one those saying they should change the ending. I don't think they should.

And I ain't an assclown, whatever that is.

Well then excuse me by all means. I thought you were one of those "hold the line" or "change now or ill end you" assclowns.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Once again Bioware never even mentioned artistic integrity until after magazines and fans started throwing it around after it became a big buzz from other people then EAware said "well if they're going to use that to defend us anyway without us even saying it we can just agree and it'll divide the hate between those who see it as integrity and those who don't"

It's a common business strategy and EA is a common business conglomerate. You give the companies power and you gave the companies the excuse of artistic integrity.

Personally the only saving grace is the DLC is free. Part of me doesn't even want it but I don't have much to lose by taking it god knows it can't be any more poorly misconstrued than the ending was.

Meh Krogan's gonna kill, Salarian's are gonna talk fast, and endings are going to ****** people off. Just seems a shame that such a fantastic game would be seen by many as one of the most disappointing and controversial moments of gaming history.

[Destr1er]

Hey, bad art is still art.
I know quite a few 'artists' and musicians who are full of themselves and think everyone is a complete moron for not getting their 'art'.
The art world is full of poseurs and con-men.

[billywaffles]

DannieCraft wrote...

I think, if you truly want everything to be rewritten, there is something called "fan-fiction", and it gives you the right to write exactly what you want. In that way, you can have your own artistic integrity as well as BioWare have theirs. I am happy with BioWares current decision to expand upon the current ending instead of changing it. 

^I couldn't say it better myself.

[abaris]

shinyelf wrote...

This is stating that he as the artist decides what goes in the book(or game in this case) and that he should not write in a certain way just to appease a fanbase.

And if the publisher decides it's bull and he refuses to change it, he did indeed write it for himself.

There's money and customers involved. Customers paying for a game not for artistic vision, whatever that may be. There are certain rules every story follows, set up in ancient times when some clever greeks laid down what drama is and what it isn't. In fact they only wrote down what's human heritage since the campfire days when tall tales were told.

The endings of Mass Effect nearly violate the whole set by introducing the deus ex which is considered a very poor plot toll since the days of the Rennaissance when it first made it's grand entrance due to the abundant use of stage machinery. Another crime against dramaturgy would be the absence of logic that has been introduced throughout the series, thereby leaving plot holes to drive a cart through. And lastly it violates the canon and most every moral that has been set up throughout the first two in the series.

Well, some may call that art, some may call it by a more fitting name.

[Canned Bullets]

billywaffles wrote...

DannieCraft wrote...

I think, if you truly want everything to be rewritten, there is something called "fan-fiction", and it gives you the right to write exactly what you want. In that way, you can have your own artistic integrity as well as BioWare have theirs. I am happy with BioWares current decision to expand upon the current ending instead of changing it. 

^I couldn't say it better myself.

I know Biwoare meant for us to 'speculate' on the forums about what happens after ME3 but if that's the case than its' a cheap shot and at this point writing a fan fiction because the ending was lazily written feels delusional. The summer DLC better be the best DLC ever made or else the forums will just erupt into another ****storm and the only reason Bioware isn't changing the ending like they should is because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson is too full of themselves to admit fault.

Also, The Last Airbender was M. Night Shyamalan's artistic vision but just because it was his artistic vision doesn't mean that The Last Airbender wasn't ****.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 12 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[abaris]

Canned Bullets wrote...

and the only reason Bioware isn't changing the ending like they should is because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson is too full of themselves to admit fault.

It's not down to them, it's down to corporate policy. I wouldn't know about their personal motives but I'm sure they're not the issue here.

The company can't admit fault.

[Canned Bullets]

abaris wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

and the only reason Bioware isn't changing the ending like they should is because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson is too full of themselves to admit fault.

It's not down to them, it's down to corporate policy. I wouldn't know about their personal motives but I'm sure they're not the issue here.

The company can't admit fault.

Yeah I know its corporate bull**** PR that every bloated company spews out. The people responsible for the ending "Mac Walters and Casey Hudson) should have the decency to admit fault. The closest thing to any Bioware affiliated people admitting fault was Patrick Weekes saying the ending ould have been better.

[Alex_SM]

shinyelf wrote...

Once upon a time I watched a movie, the movie was called "Finding Forrester" in the movie there is a brilliant quote, which does (to some degree) fit in this discussion, the quote was:
"I did not write it for them"
This is stating that he as the artist decides what goes in the book(or game in this case) and that he should not write in a certain way just to appease a fanbase.
I feel the same goes for Bioware, they should not have to change something for the "fans" If something is to be changed it should e done by Biowares choice, because after all they are the artists, and it is important that their integrity remain intact (both integrity and artistic integrity)

After changing things to please EA board of directors their integrity remains intact?

[crowi83]

Can we develop a meme from artistic integrity? Maybe something even worse than arrow in the knee?

[billywaffles]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Also, The Last Airbender was M. Night Shyamalan's artistic vision but just because it was his artistic vision doesn't mean that The Last Airbender wasn't ****.

On that I think most of us agree xD

[Canned Bullets]

Alex_SM wrote...

shinyelf wrote...

Once upon a time I watched a movie, the movie was called "Finding Forrester" in the movie there is a brilliant quote, which does (to some degree) fit in this discussion, the quote was:
"I did not write it for them"
This is stating that he as the artist decides what goes in the book(or game in this case) and that he should not write in a certain way just to appease a fanbase.
I feel the same goes for Bioware, they should not have to change something for the "fans" If something is to be changed it should e done by Biowares choice, because after all they are the artists, and it is important that their integrity remain intact (both integrity and artistic integrity)

After changing things to please EA board of directors their integrity remains intact?

Yeah, if Bioware was really going for the artistic integrity card they would have fought EA. The ending didn't even have any artistic integrity anyways because it was bad art and commercial art, just like how MW3 has no artistic integrity because its bad art and commercial art.