247 réponses à ce sujet

[Alex_SM]

When the game has been changed in order to please a board of directors.
When it's been rushed in order to be released in a specific date.
When it's deliberately designed to be mass produced and sold to millions of people.
When it's been designed based on market researches in order to appeal a key audience.
When it's been deliberately tuned down instead of making it as good as it could in order to fit it on outdated hardware. 

Then talking about artistic integrity feels like a joke. 

[slimgrin]

Alex_SM wrote...

When the game has been changed in order to please a board of directors.
When it's been rushed in order to be released in a specific date.
When it's deliberately designed to be mass produced and sold to millions of people.
When it's been designed based on market researches in order to appeal a key audience.
When it's been deliberately tuned down instead of making it as good as it could in order to fit it on outdated hardware. 

Then talking about artistic integrity feels like a joke. 

/end thread.

[Canned Bullets]

slimgrin wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...

When the game has been changed in order to please a board of directors.
When it's been rushed in order to be released in a specific date.
When it's deliberately designed to be mass produced and sold to millions of people.
When it's been designed based on market researches in order to appeal a key audience.
When it's been deliberately tuned down instead of making it as good as it could in order to fit it on outdated hardware. 

Then talking about artistic integrity feels like a joke. 

/end thread.

Yeah Yahzee Croshaw had a good quote which I'll paraphrase. There are two types of games, those made by developers because they thought it would be something nice for the World to enjoy, and those made by the developer to buy another mansion. Mass Effect 1 was in the first category but Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 were in the latter category. 

[abaris]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Mass Effect 1 was in the first category but Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 were in the latter category. 

Mass Effect 2 certainly was more commercial than ME1 but it still didn't play in the same league as ME3, complete with tacked on multiplayer and cliche ending.

I think, ME3 can only be compared with DAII, because they both had that certain quick money grabbing touch.

[SP2219]

Bioware we are not trying to rob you of your artistic integrity. We have an overwhelming admiration for the talented people at Bioware. But we do not believe the artistic skills of the Bioware team have shown in the ending to Mass Effect 3. We believe Mass Effect 3, and the Mass Effect franchise, deserves an ending that respects the original artistic vision of that franchise. Bioware has a great deal of artistic talent, but it is not present in the final 10 minutes of the game. Please do not think this is an attack on Bioware's artistic vision. It is just constructive criticism.

I agree with this thread completely. It is extremely important that the ending to ME3 be rewritten from the ground up. Art is a means of expressing emotions and ideas. Bioware, if the emotions and ideas you wanted to convey with Mass Effect 3's ending were confusion, nonsensical arguments, hopelessness and heartbreak, then you have succeeded.

These are generally not a set of emotions you may wish to convey to your audience, because they are not enjoyable emotions to experience. They also don't sell very well.

If you want to convey emotions and ideas of hope, resolve, self determinism, choice, happiness, tragedy and worthy sacrifice, I suggest you rewrite the ending. These were the key themes of Mass Effect and so rewriting the ending would seem like a very good idea.

I don't know what else I can say. Mass Effect 3 is such a beautiful work of art, until the last 10 minutes where it is arguably ruined.

Please can you rewrite the ending it means a lot to me. It means a lot to everyone else too.

Modifié par SP2219, 12 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[Canned Bullets]

abaris wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

Mass Effect 1 was in the first category but Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 were in the latter category. 

Mass Effect 2 certainly was more commercial than ME1 but it still didn't play in the same league as ME3, complete with tacked on multiplayer and cliche ending.

I think, ME3 can only be compared with DAII, because they both had that certain quick money grabbing touch.

Interestingly enough Croshaw said the quote I mentioend in his Dragon Age 2 review.

Modifié par Canned Bullets, 12 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[abaris]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Interestingly enough Croshaw said the quote I mentioend in his Dragon Age 2 review.

At the risk of sounding uneducated, but who is this guy?

[slimgrin]

abaris wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

Mass Effect 1 was in the first category but Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 were in the latter category. 

Mass Effect 2 certainly was more commercial than ME1 but it still didn't play in the same league as ME3, complete with tacked on multiplayer and cliche ending.

I think, ME3 can only be compared with DAII, because they both had that certain quick money grabbing touch.

Agreed. ME2 comes of as a more sincere effort imo, and a game with fewer flaws.

[Degs29]

Canned Bullets wrote...
What I'm saying that polishing a turd by adding on to the ending won't help, they have to rewrite the ending completely and rewriting an ending will not sacrifice artistic integrity. Preferably with Drew Karpyshyn and the rest of the ME3 writing team....

Anyone agree? 

I actually used the same expression about a week ago when they first announced the extended cut.  You can't get a gem from polishing a turd...and ME3 deserves to be a gem.  In many ways it already is, but the ending is a real drag on the rest of the game.

I don't agree withe the concept of artistic integrity.  If the writers want to keep the story how it is, that's their right.  It's also our right to voice our displeasure with it.  If Bioware wants to appease fans, they have to admit they screwed up the ending...as in, created an ending most of the fanbase hates...and not only rewrite the story, but also change many of the mechanics in the endgame to better reflect ME values.

What I don't want to see is Bioware wasting resources working on delving deeper into that 'turd' of an ending.  I can't see the fan response to this extended cut being positive, as I think it ignores or expands upon many of the big issues.  As far as I see it, Bioware has to either admit it was wrong and fix the problem or they have to admit the problem, but ignore it.  What they seem to be doing is admitting somewhat that there is a problem, but fixing minor issues, rather than the glaring ones.

[Canned Bullets]

abaris wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

Interestingly enough Croshaw said the quote I mentioend in his Dragon Age 2 review.

At the risk of sounding uneducated, but who is this guy?

A reviewer who makes fun of all the games he reviews.

Also, Mass Effect 2 didn't feel as rushed as Mass Effect 3. Sure Mass Effect 3 has better gameplay, RPG elements, and squad banter on the Normandy, but you can really tell the game was rushed during the Thessia mission, also Mass Effect 2's ending was a lot more gratifying than Mass Effect 3's ending.

[abaris]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Sure Mass Effect 3 has better gameplay, RPG elements, and squad banter on the Normandy, but you can really tell the game was rushed during the Thessia mission, also Mass Effect 2's ending was a lot more gratifying than Mass Effect 3's ending.

I would say, it shines in the first 50 to 60 percent of the game. After that you get the feeling of the developers saying, let's get it over with already.

Which, incidently, is more than can be said about DAII. With DAII the demo was enough to scare me away from buying the finished product.

[Degs29]

abaris wrote...

I would say, it shines in the first 50 to 60 percent of the game. After that you get the feeling of the developers saying, let's get it over with already.

Which, incidently, is more than can be said about DAII. With DAII the demo was enough to scare me away from buying the finished product.

I still don't get all the hate about DAII.  Yeah, it had flaws and it seemed like shortcuts were taken in completing the game...yet I still really enjoyed it.  I don't think ME3 is even comparable to DAII, since the majority of ME3 is absolutely stunning.  A different issue...although maybe the same cause....

[abaris]

Degs29 wrote...

I still don't get all the hate about DAII.  Yeah, it had flaws and it seemed like shortcuts were taken in completing the game...yet I still really enjoyed it.  I don't think ME3 is even comparable to DAII, since the majority of ME3 is absolutely stunning.  A different issue...although maybe the same cause....

Well, I can only give my personal view about any game.

So, with me, DAII had that monkey feel when it came to gameplay and that's not what I consider something I want to experience with role playing games.

I also said that ME3 is the better game in my opinion - for the first 50 to 60 percent. It drops abruptly after that and that seems to be a certain indicator of a serious case of release rush.

The frustrating thing about it, the devs showed what they are capable of, but ultimately failed to walk the whole mile.

[shinyelf]

Artistic integrety is when the artist says "this is the line, I am not going to compromise on this one" and while the artist may be willin to change his product to satisfy one group of consumers, but not another it is because the don't want the same changes.
The artist should always have the option to say " this is my work and I am not going to change it if the changes compromise my vision. However if you manage to convince me that the changes would benefit the piece then sure"
That is what integrity is all about.

[Canned Bullets]

abaris wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

Sure Mass Effect 3 has better gameplay, RPG elements, and squad banter on the Normandy, but you can really tell the game was rushed during the Thessia mission, also Mass Effect 2's ending was a lot more gratifying than Mass Effect 3's ending.

I would say, it shines in the first 50 to 60 percent of the game. After that you get the feeling of the developers saying, let's get it over with already.

Which, incidently, is more than can be said about DAII. With DAII the demo was enough to scare me away from buying the finished product.

I'd say most of ME3 is good until the last 10 minutes but after Thessia it starts to get rushed and the last mission on Earth felt more like a Gears of War mission.

[batlin]

There's way more integrity in admitting one's faults than going "We think our ending is great, but we understand SOME of our fans don't like it"

Modifié par batlin, 12 avril 2012 - 08:38 .

[Lajkos]

Legion64 wrote...

"Artistic Integrity" is just an excuse.

this

[Atakuma]

batlin wrote...

There's way more integrity in admitting one's faults than going "We think our ending is great, but we understand SOME of our fans don't like it"

Not if they actually believe the ending was great, then they would just be lying to appease those who would disagree.

[batlin]

Atakuma wrote...

Not if they actually believe the ending was great, then they would just be lying to appease those who would disagree.

There are gaping plot holes and flimsy logic. Neiter of these things are subjective; they're legitimate problems with the ending.

Not to mention how, ya know, Casey Hudson advertised the ending as beign the exact opposite of what we got.

[Atakuma]

batlin wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Not if they actually believe the ending was great, then they would just be lying to appease those who would disagree.

There are gaping plot holes and flimsy logic. Neiter of these things are subjective; they're legitimate problems with the ending.

Not to mention how, ya know, Casey Hudson advertised the ending as beign the exact opposite of what we got.

So what? It's still subjective and perfectly valid for someone to thnk the ending was great.

[slimgrin]

The ending can be ripped apart with logical and objective analysis. Subjective opinion only goes so far in art.

[Amioran]

slimgrin wrote...

The ending can be ripped apart with logical and objective analysis. Subjective opinion only goes so far in art.

A shame that it cannot.

"Your" objective analysis counts very little since I bet how much you want that you know very little about these things (as 95% of people here).

As for the fact that subjective opion goes only so far I agree with you, problem is here that to have an unbiased objective analysis you must have some background and knowledge on the things you are about to judge, elsewhere it is just using opinions to state a judgment (that totally contradicts all you said to begin with).

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2012 - 09:22 .

[Amioran]

slimgrin wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...

When the game has been changed in order to please a board of directors.
When it's been rushed in order to be released in a specific date.
When it's deliberately designed to be mass produced and sold to millions of people.
When it's been designed based on market researches in order to appeal a key audience.
When it's been deliberately tuned down instead of making it as good as it could in order to fit it on outdated hardware. 

Then talking about artistic integrity feels like a joke. 

/end thread.

As I said.... you know nothing of what you talk about since you agree with the above.

A publisher buys the PROPERTY of the work (the audience doesn't).
A work designed on marketing research still has artistic intergrity as a parameter (the motivation behind the work doesn't change this; read Adorno or Heiddeger).
Idem for what it concerns tuning it down (i.e. making it worse).
Idem for what it concerns the work being produced for mass appeal (again, motivation behind a work of art doesn't remove the artistic integrity behind the same).

Thank you for proving my point. Do you really want to judge a work on objective parameters when you don't either know these very simple points (that don't require any expertise at all and that even without a solid background logic could tell)? Make me laugh, please.

/end of your incompetency (more than the thread).

Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2012 - 09:26 .