The ending is the equivalent of me writing a thesis paper with a conclusion that does not compliment or restate my purpose, but instead introduces an entirely new purpose in the last few sentences. Then when my professor gives me a bad grade I tell him he has no right because "he is compromising my artistic integrity." Bioware is very confused if they think we have no right to complain about the ending. As much as artists (yes I believe they are artists) want to believe they should do everything for their own enjoyment, the reality is they are creating for their patrons. Every art has a patron or judge- just as I write for my professors or readers. Mass Effect is a collaborative art and WE, the fans, are their patrons. Our purchases have funded their company- we put the money in their pockets so to speak. So them telling us to shut up because we are compromising their artistic integrity is as good a financial move as me telling my professors or publishers to shut up because they criticized me for my bad writing.
There is no artistic integrity in bad writing and the ME3 ending should be completely rewritten.
Débuté par
Canned Bullets
, avril 11 2012 05:28
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#202
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:22
slimgrin
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Amioran wrote...
slimgrin wrote...
The ending can be ripped apart with logical and objective analysis. Subjective opinion only goes so far in art.
"Your" objective analysis counts very little since I bet how much you want that you know very little about these things (as 95% of people here).
Read this 5 times, still confused.
#203
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:23
xsdob
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Well, we could do that, but open the door for much worse changes, like changes purposed by large conservative activist groups or parent organizations or Christan churches. So you see changes like the removal of guns, blood, sexual content, profanity, violence, and all gamplay consist of talking things out and building friendships with the angry mean people.
These protections exist for a reason, and that reason is to protect art from being altered by large groups who feel threatened by the message the medium is presenting. Most artist change their works to match what fans like because the fans are giving money to the artist, and rarely complain about issues. I will admit that bioware is being jerkish in having used it as an excuse, but they are altering the endings, the new scenes will not change the structure, but everything else around it, and that is more than broken steel ever did.
These protections exist for a reason, and that reason is to protect art from being altered by large groups who feel threatened by the message the medium is presenting. Most artist change their works to match what fans like because the fans are giving money to the artist, and rarely complain about issues. I will admit that bioware is being jerkish in having used it as an excuse, but they are altering the endings, the new scenes will not change the structure, but everything else around it, and that is more than broken steel ever did.
#204
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:24
SalsaDMA
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Atakuma wrote...
So what? It's still subjective and perfectly valid for someone to thnk the ending was great.batlin wrote...
Atakuma wrote...
Not if they actually believe the ending was great, then they would just be lying to appease those who would disagree.
There are gaping plot holes and flimsy logic. Neiter of these things are subjective; they're legitimate problems with the ending.
Not to mention how, ya know, Casey Hudson advertised the ending as beign the exact opposite of what we got.
If Bioware truly thinks that ending is great, I have zero hope for their future products.
#205
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:33
Amioran
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slimgrin wrote...
Amioran wrote...
slimgrin wrote...
The ending can be ripped apart with logical and objective analysis. Subjective opinion only goes so far in art.
"Your" objective analysis counts very little since I bet how much you want that you know very little about these things (as 95% of people here).
Read this 5 times, still confused.
What is so confusing on saying that to judge a work (of whatever type) objectively you must have a little of background on the parameters that define the work itself?
You don't have it (as 95% of people here), so you just want to let it pass opinion for judgement.
Why I say so? Because it is obvious from what you wrote, whom you agree with, the way you agree and the motivations you propose (that are none being broad statements that mean anything at all for what it concerns a judgment).
Modifié par Amioran, 12 avril 2012 - 09:34 .
#206
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:34
jakal66
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Yeah well the money issue isn't a factor because cinema is considered art and there is also a financial transaction.And those who say in screenings they change the endings I say it depends on the Director, you won't see Major directors like Scorcece changing their endings.I think any form of sotry telling can be considered a form of art and therefore if there is a writer artistic integrity should apply.They decided that was ending they are the creators of the story and they have the right to keep it whether you like it or not.Too bad some people think it's their story just because they bought it and made some choices when you were only following the choices they created for you.
#207
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:35
HTTP 404
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OP I respect your artistic integretity. I hope you don't change your original post.
#208
Guest_TheseAreMyToys_*
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:49
Guest_TheseAreMyToys_*
Guest_TheseAreMyToys_*
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SP2219 wrote...
Bioware we are not trying to rob you of your artistic integrity. We have an overwhelming admiration for the talented people at Bioware. But we do not believe the artistic skills of the Bioware team have shown in the ending to Mass Effect 3. We believe Mass Effect 3, and the Mass Effect franchise, deserves an ending that respects the original artistic vision of that franchise. Bioware has a great deal of artistic talent, but it is not present in the final 10 minutes of the game. Please do not think this is an attack on Bioware's artistic vision. It is just constructive criticism.
I agree with this thread completely. It is extremely important that the ending to ME3 be rewritten from the ground up. Art is a means of expressing emotions and ideas. Bioware, if the emotions and ideas you wanted to convey with Mass Effect 3's ending were confusion, nonsensical arguments, hopelessness and heartbreak, then you have succeeded.
These are generally not a set of emotions you may wish to convey to your audience, because they are not enjoyable emotions to experience. They also don't sell very well.
If you want to convey emotions and ideas of hope, resolve, self determinism, choice, happiness, tragedy and worthy sacrifice, I suggest you rewrite the ending. These were the key themes of Mass Effect and so rewriting the ending would seem like a very good idea.
I don't know what else I can say. Mass Effect 3 is such a beautiful work of art, until the last 10 minutes where it is arguably ruined.
Please can you rewrite the ending it means a lot to me. It means a lot to everyone else too.
Beautifully said my friend.
The key with the entire Retake Mass Effect 3 movement to me is not "artistic integrity" it was the fact that what was promised wasn't there, and to top it all of EA/BioWare made an ending that made zero sense.
I hate to break it to all of you nay sayers out there, but gross misconduct and misrepresentation of a product to the consumer does warrant litigation in the real world. The problem with this is since ME3 is an intellectual property / creation and typically it isn't socially accepted YET and that litigation of this type misrepresentation is difficult to pin down or even get off the launch pad.
Take Jaguar's XJ220 back in the early 1990s. Jaguar took deposits initially promising >350 production units, V12 motor, it would be capable of ~220mph, etc. Unfortunately, the car was significantly more expensive than intially promised, significantly less powerful, had V6 twin turbo (which ticked off Jaguar purists), they could only make 350 units total, and non-race variants couldn't even hope to get to the advertised 220mph speed. The car by automotive standards was a beautiful piece of engineering but a flop. Take a guess at what happened? Those that didn't get a car at all sued for their deposits and damages. Those that got the car and were unhappy with it sued for misrepresentation and were awarded damages.
Someone here said integrity is about taking pride in your work and being proud of it. This is true, yet integrity is also knowing when to admit fault and either apologizing or rectifying the problem.
If BioWare was making Mass Effect 3 strictly as a stand alone piece of artwork then NO ONE could criticize it, ask for their money back, ask for new content, ask for alterations since it promises nothing to no one. The viewer has zero stake in the situation. However, BioWare did not make ME3 as artwork only. They made it to cater to consumers for profit in such a way as to create a contiguous ficitional mythos and ethos, which the consumer has come to expect because prior to ME3 BioWare promised this and then meet their own and consumer expectactions. At least this is what they were supposed to do for ME3.
The only reprocussion for BioWare at this point is that since it is pretty much impossible to sue them for damages would be to either return your game for full credit / refund, stop buying BioWare / EA products all together, reduce your consumption of BioWare / EA products or perhaps be more skeptical of them due to this or other mishaps like it, or wait and see how they handle the situation. If its not to your liking and it bothers you enough then vote with your dollars.
Your wallet is the easiest way to influence a corporation. If you want to go for the jugular and are that dissatisfied then simply don't support them. They will either quickly change their ways or they will be out that which feeds them.
As my parents once told me: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." You'd do well to remember that EA.
Modifié par TheseAreMyToys, 12 avril 2012 - 09:55 .
#209
Guest_TheseAreMyToys_*
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:57
Guest_TheseAreMyToys_*
Guest_TheseAreMyToys_*
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TheseAreMyToys wrote...
SP2219 wrote...
Bioware we are not trying to rob you of your artistic integrity. We have an overwhelming admiration for the talented people at Bioware. But we do not believe the artistic skills of the Bioware team have shown in the ending to Mass Effect 3. We believe Mass Effect 3, and the Mass Effect franchise, deserves an ending that respects the original artistic vision of that franchise. Bioware has a great deal of artistic talent, but it is not present in the final 10 minutes of the game. Please do not think this is an attack on Bioware's artistic vision. It is just constructive criticism.
I agree with this thread completely. It is extremely important that the ending to ME3 be rewritten from the ground up. Art is a means of expressing emotions and ideas. Bioware, if the emotions and ideas you wanted to convey with Mass Effect 3's ending were confusion, nonsensical arguments, hopelessness and heartbreak, then you have succeeded.
These are generally not a set of emotions you may wish to convey to your audience, because they are not enjoyable emotions to experience. They also don't sell very well.
If you want to convey emotions and ideas of hope, resolve, self determinism, choice, happiness, tragedy and worthy sacrifice, I suggest you rewrite the ending. These were the key themes of Mass Effect and so rewriting the ending would seem like a very good idea.
I don't know what else I can say. Mass Effect 3 is such a beautiful work of art, until the last 10 minutes where it is arguably ruined.
Please can you rewrite the ending it means a lot to me. It means a lot to everyone else too.
Beautifully said my friend.
The key with the entire Retake Mass Effect 3 movement to me is not "artistic integrity" it was the fact that what was promised wasn't there, and to top it all of EA/BioWare made an ending that made zero sense.
I hate to break it to all of you nay sayers out there, but gross misconduct and misrepresentation of a product to the consumer does warrant litigation in the real world. The problem with this is since ME3 is an intellectual property / creation and typically it isn't socially accepted YET and that litigation of this type of misrepresentation is difficult to pin down or even get off the launch pad.
Take Jaguar's XJ220 back in the early 1990s. Jaguar took deposits initially promising >350 production units, V12 motor, it would be capable of ~220mph, etc. Unfortunately, the car was significantly more expensive than intially promised, significantly less powerful, had V6 twin turbo (which ticked off Jaguar purists), they could only make 350 units total, and non-race variants couldn't even hope to get to the advertised 220mph speed. The car by automotive standards was a beautiful piece of engineering but a flop. Take a guess at what happened? Those that didn't get a car at all sued for their deposits and damages. Those that got the car and were unhappy with it sued for misrepresentation and were awarded damages.
Someone here said integrity is about taking pride in your work and being proud of it. This is true, yet integrity is also knowing when to admit fault and either apologizing or rectifying the problem.
If BioWare was making Mass Effect 3 strictly as a stand alone piece of artwork then NO ONE could criticize it, ask for their money back, ask for new content, ask for alterations since it promises nothing to no one. The viewer has zero stake in the situation. However, BioWare did not make ME3 as artwork only. They made it to cater to consumers for profit in such a way as to create a contiguous ficitional mythos and ethos, which the consumer has come to expect because prior to ME3 BioWare promised this and then meet their own and consumer expectactions. At least this is what they were supposed to do for ME3.
The only reprocussion for BioWare at this point is that since it is pretty much impossible to sue them for damages would be to either return your game for full credit / refund, stop buying BioWare / EA products all together, reduce your consumption of BioWare / EA products or perhaps be more skeptical of them due to this or other mishaps like it, or wait and see how they handle the situation. If its not to your liking and it bothers you enough then vote with your dollars.
Your wallet is the easiest way to influence a corporation. If you want to go for the jugular and are that dissatisfied then simply don't support them. They will either quickly change their ways or they will be out that which feeds them.
As my parents once told me: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." You'd do well to remember that EA.
#210
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 10:04
jakal66
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"As my parents once told me: "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." You'd do well to remember that EA."
Man I heard that phrase before and you know what...with coorporations like EA that don't work buddy.Perhaps Bioware will suffer and EA will perhaps lose a good franchise(something I don't beleieve for I think some of you complaining will be the first ones buying their new games and even DLC) but EA, man that company will still be here doing what they've been doing for decades.You think we're the majority?Man been there done that got the T shirt.
Conclusion. It's possible EA continues to thrive and make money even after we're dead.But perhaps not...though I highly doubt it
Man I heard that phrase before and you know what...with coorporations like EA that don't work buddy.Perhaps Bioware will suffer and EA will perhaps lose a good franchise(something I don't beleieve for I think some of you complaining will be the first ones buying their new games and even DLC) but EA, man that company will still be here doing what they've been doing for decades.You think we're the majority?Man been there done that got the T shirt.
Conclusion. It's possible EA continues to thrive and make money even after we're dead.But perhaps not...though I highly doubt it
#211
Posté 13 avril 2012 - 03:21
CARL_DF90
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Vincent Rosevalliant wrote...
Richard 060 wrote...
Probably the best way to summarise it is thusly:
It's no loss to 'artistic integrity' to listen to your audience, take on constructive criticism, and use it to make your art better.
To put your fingers in your ears, ignore any opinion that isn't fawningly positive, and declare your 'art' above criticism, because changing it would damage your 'integrity' (despite it being intrinsically flawed, from an objective standpoint), though?
That's not a sign of 'integrity'. That's hubris, ego, and foolish pride.
As an artist m'self (professional musician - concert-hall soloist, natch, so I'd like to think I know what I'm banging on about, here...), you can't declare yourself to have 'artistic integrity' if you're still shackled by your ego. Be objective, be logical, and look at your creative output from the perspective of the audience, and try to understand their point of view - and if you find yourself agreeing with it, make changes.
Or, to put it bluntly, in the words of a great Jazz musician hero of mine:
"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."
Well said.
Finally! Some more people who understand. Plus this vid that really hits the nail on the head.
Modifié par CARL_DF90, 13 avril 2012 - 03:26 .
#212
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 03:28
CARL_DF90
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If anything, this whole ordeal has taught me some very important lessons for when I finish my book. Namely, have a conclusion that can make sense for everyone. 
#213
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 03:47
WolfForce99
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CARL_DF90 wrote...
Vincent Rosevalliant wrote...
Richard 060 wrote...
Probably the best way to summarise it is thusly:
It's no loss to 'artistic integrity' to listen to your audience, take on constructive criticism, and use it to make your art better.
To put your fingers in your ears, ignore any opinion that isn't fawningly positive, and declare your 'art' above criticism, because changing it would damage your 'integrity' (despite it being intrinsically flawed, from an objective standpoint), though?
That's not a sign of 'integrity'. That's hubris, ego, and foolish pride.
As an artist m'self (professional musician - concert-hall soloist, natch, so I'd like to think I know what I'm banging on about, here...), you can't declare yourself to have 'artistic integrity' if you're still shackled by your ego. Be objective, be logical, and look at your creative output from the perspective of the audience, and try to understand their point of view - and if you find yourself agreeing with it, make changes.
Or, to put it bluntly, in the words of a great Jazz musician hero of mine:
"The day you think your work is perfect, is the day you should consider quitting the profession. A true 'artist' never gets complacent, and can always find areas of improvement."
Well said.
Finally! Some more people who understand. Plus this vid that really hits the nail on the head.
Great link. Loved the vid.
#214
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 03:58
Arik7
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When are we going to see a video explaining in detail how the ending was great, logical and should not be changed? I guess those 3 or 4 individuals are too busy derailing threads on BNS.CARL_DF90 wrote...
Finally! Some more people who understand. Plus this vid that really hits the nail on the head.
#215
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 04:13
jamminjamin
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Artistic Integrity was what the first 2.98 games were! All what the ME3 ending(s) were was splashing Red Green or Blue Paint all over their artistic integrity. But they don't seem to understand that. You know, as a business point of view: Change the Ending.... REWRITE it. Yes a few feelings might be hurt by... whoever wrote the ending. SO WHAT! Get over it.
I've written stories and papers in College a lot! And if they sucked... I got a a big fat F from the professor. Yes my feelings were hurt. But that doesn't change the fact that my writing "sucked". I got over it.
Sadly, the ending of ME3 "sucked". It was poorly conceived... YES we all get the artistry and the concept of introducing a brand spanking new character that bosses you around like a bratty child to an adult. It's definitely a take-back of the movie "Contact" where Ellie talks to an alien (one that looks like her dad but isn't her dad. A way to bring out familiarity to Ellie) Really, we get it... Sorry to say, it's sub-par writing and flies in the face of everything the Mass Universe stands for. I could care less about the emotions of the ending(s), that's not the point. The point is they made promises and didn't keep them. Period. Bad business. Bad writing. Bad concept. The product is defective and from a business standpoint, I want my money back. I bought an incomplete product... What does Bioware not get about that?
I could have waited another year for them to polish this game. Instead we get a rushed ending that literally gives me "the bird" and says, buy our DLC! When your choices don't matter.. and they DON'T matter, seriously! Why would I go and buy content that expands a Universe that no longer has any meaning.
Thank goodness Valve created G-Man who didn't beat around the bush by telling Freeman at the HL2 ending that he wasn't going to give Freeman the "illusion" of choice, that he (G-Man) was going to choose for him... at least Valve gave us the common curtousy of telling us that without using "artistic integrity" or whatever excuse people use these days.
My point from this unorganized rant is to tell those select few who wrote this awful ending to "get over it" and give us something more deserving of the Mass Effect Universe and the characters we've grown to love or hate.
I've written stories and papers in College a lot! And if they sucked... I got a a big fat F from the professor. Yes my feelings were hurt. But that doesn't change the fact that my writing "sucked". I got over it.
Sadly, the ending of ME3 "sucked". It was poorly conceived... YES we all get the artistry and the concept of introducing a brand spanking new character that bosses you around like a bratty child to an adult. It's definitely a take-back of the movie "Contact" where Ellie talks to an alien (one that looks like her dad but isn't her dad. A way to bring out familiarity to Ellie) Really, we get it... Sorry to say, it's sub-par writing and flies in the face of everything the Mass Universe stands for. I could care less about the emotions of the ending(s), that's not the point. The point is they made promises and didn't keep them. Period. Bad business. Bad writing. Bad concept. The product is defective and from a business standpoint, I want my money back. I bought an incomplete product... What does Bioware not get about that?
I could have waited another year for them to polish this game. Instead we get a rushed ending that literally gives me "the bird" and says, buy our DLC! When your choices don't matter.. and they DON'T matter, seriously! Why would I go and buy content that expands a Universe that no longer has any meaning.
Thank goodness Valve created G-Man who didn't beat around the bush by telling Freeman at the HL2 ending that he wasn't going to give Freeman the "illusion" of choice, that he (G-Man) was going to choose for him... at least Valve gave us the common curtousy of telling us that without using "artistic integrity" or whatever excuse people use these days.
My point from this unorganized rant is to tell those select few who wrote this awful ending to "get over it" and give us something more deserving of the Mass Effect Universe and the characters we've grown to love or hate.
Modifié par jamminjamin, 17 avril 2012 - 04:17 .
#216
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 04:59
CARL_DF90
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I sincerely hope they are taking notes of some kind because the people who know better and have been with the series since day 1 noticed how craptastic the endings were (yes, I know. made up word). There are more than enough reasons why this is and are readily available for you to look up Bioware. If you want to repair customer and fan loyalty then take notice. You're already skating on thin ice, and if you look down and have trouble seeing the cracks then I suggest taking the blinders off. It might help a little bit. 
Modifié par CARL_DF90, 17 avril 2012 - 05:12 .
#217
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 05:02
AnthonyDraft
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No they don' t need to re-write the ending. What is done is done.
What they should do, is to expand on their current ending in such a way that it makes a lot of sense in people's minds.
What they should do, is to expand on their current ending in such a way that it makes a lot of sense in people's minds.
#218
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 06:38
CARL_DF90
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If it was a movie that might be the case, but Bioware has a chance a rare few ever get: to correct this and help re-end ME3 in a way that was supposed to be. To end it in a way that reflects the series core values and do it in a satisfying way that EVERYONE can love. That is my hope for this "Extended Cut". We'll see what happens.
#219
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 07:41
BellatrixLugosi
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Nice
They are giving you a DLC to help clarify things, take what you can get. And its free.....
/Nice
They are giving you a DLC to help clarify things, take what you can get. And its free.....
/Nice
Modifié par BellatrixLugosi, 17 avril 2012 - 07:43 .
#221
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 08:08
CARL_DF90
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I remember posting a link to a vid on this page that explained quite clearly (and entertainingly) what the problem is and why people are still miffed.
#222
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 08:10
TheKillerAngel
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If you try to polish a turd you just end up smearing it all over the wall.
#223
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 08:13
wolfstanus
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TheKillerAngel wrote...
If you try to polish a turd you just end up smearing it all over the wall.
Mythbusters made some polished turds...
#224
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 08:13
CARL_DF90
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@ TheKillerAngel
Colorful, but accurate.
Another vid obviously, that also does a great job of pointing out the problems with the ending.
Colorful, but accurate.
Another vid obviously, that also does a great job of pointing out the problems with the ending.
Modifié par CARL_DF90, 17 avril 2012 - 08:20 .
#225
Posté 17 avril 2012 - 08:39
Farbautisonn
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wolfstanus wrote...
Get free dlc
Complain
This simpleton argumentation allways amuses me. The reason we are supposedly getting "free dlc" is because they dropped the ball in the first place. And I say "supposedly" because dont have any real evidence that ending dlc is forthcomming. We have "summer" and the words of people who have allready been proven to have a rather loose loyalty to their own words.
For me the free dlc will mean little. I will not be playing the game again. I don't think they can make the endings coherent within the framework of the cinematics and the ending as it is now. The entire story from beginning to end needs a workover. From the "defense tribuneral" to "starkids" crap logic and our inability to go find his memory banks and have him sing "daisy".
This isnt "free" much like its not "free money" if you got complain over a faulty product and then get a replacement or a discount on a future product.
