309 réponses à ce sujet

[Tazzmission]

XTR3M3 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Should I applaud a turd just because otherwise the one who created it might lose his job?!

Besides, legitimate criticism =/= harassing.

ROFL'd at "applauding a turd...."
agree with legitimate critcism isn't the same as harassing.

I am curious though for those of you like Father_Jerusalem that don't agree with us....do you think we have a legit gripe about the way they ended the game as opposed to how it was marketed to use using the direct quotes like our choices matter? .....if you disregard the rabid "take backers" and their ridiculous lawsuits and stuff.....do those of us who are just voicing criticism have a point? The "it is just a game" argument doesn't hold water. If that was the case, none of you would care enough to even post in these threads.

I was always curious if they think we are completely wrong about the ending in regards to how it was marketed.

ill bite


ive stated many times before and apparently people easly forget......

yes you have a right but only to a certain degree imo

when i see people represent the retake movement and go to extreme lenghs to get casey or mac fired ill confront them

same for supporting the ftc thing and the billboard crap someone posted about

imo thats extreme and will kill the gaming comunity because itll open up doors for people to complain about if they didnt like something in the future

when the retake movemnt claims im on someones payroll they dont know squat because trust me im not with ea let alone payed by them

when people call me a troll for having a diffrent view yea i'll go into war mode and basicly call them out on there hypocrisy

my attitude is dont pick a fight and expect not to get hit back because i will fight for what i stand for and that is for what i like and my own view

Modifié par Tazzmission, 11 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[LegendaryBlade]

durasteel wrote...

I see we have lost focus. There are 16 end states to the galaxy after Mass Effect 3, by the way. Here is the math.

We have three colors, red blue and green.

The two possible states of the Genophage turns those three into 6.

Rannoch is left in the state of Quarian, Geth, or Both. Those three states turn the 6 into 18, but the red ending state removes two of them, Geth and Both, leaving us with 16.

From a certain point of view, then, the statement that there are 16 different endings is a true one. The problem is that of all the decisions Shepard made, these are the only three that have an impact on the greater galaxy as it emerges from the Mac-Walters-pocalypse. Everything else is pointless because whatever it effects is either blown up, dies of old age before there is a galactic civilization again, or is simply ignored.

That's a massive stretch and you know it is. Rannoch, Genophage, and infact the entirety of your decisions are not actually represented during the ending. At all. The question is not about your endgame savestate, it's about the ending itself. How it is written, presented, and shown. We are given three chices (A,B,C) with two variables (Earth and Shepard) and one cutscene that has a color/hue change.

[Father_Jerusalem]

XTR3M3 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Should I applaud a turd just because otherwise the one who created it might lose his job?!

Besides, legitimate criticism =/= harassing.

ROFL'd at "applauding a turd...."
agree with legitimate critcism isn't the same as harassing.

I am curious though for those of you like Father_Jerusalem that don't agree with us....do you think we have a legit gripe about the way they ended the game as opposed to how it was marketed to use using the direct quotes like our choices matter? .....if you disregard the rabid "take backers" and their ridiculous lawsuits and stuff.....do those of us who are just voicing criticism have a point? The "it is just a game" argument doesn't hold water. If that was the case, none of you would care enough to even post in these threads.

I was always curious if they think we are completely wrong about the ending in regards to how it was marketed.

I like the ending. I think it has its flaws, but I like it. I understand there are people who dislike it, just as there are people who will dislike anything. I do not blame anyone for disliking it so long as they are reasonable about it. Donating money to Child's Play, for instance, was a good concept that was - in the end - ultimately flawed (perhaps, right there, is a metaphor to Mass Effect 3?). The cupcakes, also, were a nice touch - that BioWare simlply outmaneuvered the Retakers on.

What I do not understand is blasting BBB and the FTC with complaints, review bombing, threatening lawsuits, wanting to post slanderous billboards in front of EA headquarters, and acting like spoiled brats who want to get anyone who disagrees with them banned from the forum. That kind of behavior I will not stand for.

Any criticism that is levelled in a thoughtful, evenhanded manner has a point. It is when you go beyond critiquing into demanding, harrassing, and slandering that it becomes a problem.

I hope that this will help clarify my feelings, since you asked politely.

[SalsaDMA]

Tirigon wrote...

John Epler wrote...

No, I'll continue to ask people to be considerate of others and keep the forums relatively easy to read.

Which is a good thing to do, but he DOES have a point in a way. It is very obvious that most posters do not understand to, or simply not bother, to avoid pyramid quoting.


On another note: Maybe you have a company policy forbidding it or something, but I think it would be very interesting if you, or someone else from BioWare could join in discussions such as this one. And I mean with actual points, not just reminding everyone to stay civil etc.., even though that is obviously needed sometimes as well:)

I doubt that would be a good idea, tbh.

Either they would be perceived as being a stooge, or they'd risk loosing their status because someone higher up felt they were too critical. In either case, they wouldn't be able to add antyhing proper to the discussions aside relay company lines. I would asume that they would use more 'anomynous' accounts if they wanted to join the discussions proper.

[Tirigon]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

If your opinion is that Mass Effect 3 is a bad game overall, and you illustrate that in your review, that is one thing. If your opinion is that Mass Effect 3 is a good game, but a poor ending, that is another thing.

Regardless, spamming Amazon with 0/10 reviews is inherently dishonest. No game deserves a 0/10 - and very VERY few games deserve a 10/10 just to offset that argument.

Well... no games that aren't starring 50 Cent, anyway.

The points are just an attention grabber anyways, which means extreme ones serve best.
The content is the important part, only idiots judge by points, or stars, alone.

[Father_Jerusalem]

L00p wrote...



Not when all the rest of us, including Epler, can see with our own eyes what kind of behaviour you show and how easily you dismiss valid arguments and counterpoints from other members of the discussion. And certainly when this behavior from you have been present in other threads as well.

I do not dismiss valid arguments and counterpoints, I counter them with my own arguments and counterpoints. That is how a discussion works. You will not change my mind, and I will not change yours, but there are points and arguments to be made for BOTH sides.

Simply because you agree with one thing does not automatically make you "the winner" and make me have to kneel at your feet.

Also, please don't bring up "dismissing valid arguments and counterpoints" when you, in this exact thread, are doing the exact same thing.

[BigBody26]

I find it increasingly amusing how people can say the retakers are whiny and wrong even though the BBB has now confirmed that Bioware falsely advertised Mass Effect 3. The people at the BBB make a living detecting things like this in business and advertising. I believe they know what they're talking about. Bioware lied. Period.

[Tirigon]

John Epler wrote...

I'm not on the ME team, so it would be rather inappropriate for me to join in this sort of discussion.

Oh, I think the PoV of someone who is a BioWare member, but not directly working on Mass Effect and thus still a bit distanced might actually be VERY interesting:)

But of course that is your decision.

[Tazzmission]

BigBody26 wrote...

I find it increasingly amusing how people can say the retakers are whiny and wrong even though the BBB has now confirmed that Bioware falsely advertised Mass Effect 3. The people at the BBB make a living detecting things like this in business and advertising. I believe they know what they're talking about. Bioware lied. Period.

so i guess that means you believe fox news is fair and balanced.....

[Father_Jerusalem]

Tirigon wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

If your opinion is that Mass Effect 3 is a bad game overall, and you illustrate that in your review, that is one thing. If your opinion is that Mass Effect 3 is a good game, but a poor ending, that is another thing.

Regardless, spamming Amazon with 0/10 reviews is inherently dishonest. No game deserves a 0/10 - and very VERY few games deserve a 10/10 just to offset that argument.

Well... no games that aren't starring 50 Cent, anyway.

The points are just an attention grabber anyways, which means extreme ones serve best.
The content is the important part, only idiots judge by points, or stars, alone.

And that is what I am referring to by bombing. Throwing down 0s, or 10s, without any sort of statement of why you believe the game deserves that score. If you LEGITIMATELY feel that the game deserves a 0, and you are willing to explain why with more than a "TEH ENDINGZ BLOW!" or "OMG TEH GAYZ WTF!" then, as much as I disagree with the fact that you rated it with a 0, I would be willing to accept your reasoning.

[XTR3M3]

Tazzmission wrote...
ill bite


ive stated many times before and apparently people easly forget......

yes you have a right but only to a certain degree imo

when i see people represent the retake movement and go to extreme lenghs to get casey or mac fired ill confront them

same for supporting the ftc thing and the billboard crap someone posted about

imo thats extreme and will kill the gaming comunity because itll open up doors for people to complain about if they didnt like something in the future

when the retake movemnt claims im on someones payroll they dont know squat because trust me im not with ea let alone payed by them

when people call me a troll for having a diffrent view yea i'll go into war mode and basicly call them out on there hypocrisy

my attitude is dont pick a fight and expect not to get hit back because i will fight for what i stand for and that is for what i like and my own view

thanks for the answer. I agree that trying to get them fired or joining a lawsuit is ridiculous. yet you have gone after me and that other guy and I didn't do either though....
My criticism of their false advertising as described in this thread's OP is what I would call a form of tough love. I have loved BioWare stuff in the past and loved most of ME3. I want them to succeed because that means good games for me to play. If that means I have to bust their chops and call them on their crap to get that, I should have the right to do that, don't you think?

[Father_Jerusalem]

Opsrbest wrote...

So, are people arguing over an opinion piece on the BBB by the Director of Communications as if it's fact?

It started out that way. Where it is now... I don't think anyone can truly say.

[kbct]

Ronin1325 wrote...

What's really ridiculous is Bioware Circling The Wagons, and admitting no fault whatsoever, despite Dr. Muzyka's statement about showing "humility".

Yup, BioWare followed the PR playbook. A lot of this could have been avoided with a honest discussion at the beginning. It's a shame so much damage has been done. But again, I think the events over the last months go beyond EA and BioWare to the gaming industry as a whole. No one wants to make the same mistakes again. That's a net-positive for gamers.

[TheGreenAlloy]

Oh man, the Better Business Bureau are such entitled whiners!

/sarcasm

[HenchxNarf]

BigBody26 wrote...

I find it increasingly amusing how people can say the retakers are whiny and wrong even though the BBB has now confirmed that Bioware falsely advertised Mass Effect 3. The people at the BBB make a living detecting things like this in business and advertising. I believe they know what they're talking about. Bioware lied. Period.

Actually this is false. BBB runs on companies paying them for good scores. BW doesn't pay BBB which is why they're getting shiz now.

[kbct]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

durasteel wrote...

I see we have lost focus. There are 16 end states to the galaxy after Mass Effect 3, by the way. Here is the math.

We have three colors, red blue and green.

The two possible states of the Genophage turns those three into 6.

Rannoch is left in the state of Quarian, Geth, or Both. Those three states turn the 6 into 18, but the red ending state removes two of them, Geth and Both, leaving us with 16.

From a certain point of view, then, the statement that there are 16 different endings is a true one. The problem is that of all the decisions Shepard made, these are the only three that have an impact on the greater galaxy as it emerges from the Mac-Walters-pocalypse. Everything else is pointless because whatever it effects is either blown up, dies of old age before there is a galactic civilization again, or is simply ignored.

That's a massive stretch and you know it is. Rannoch, Genophage, and infact the entirety of your decisions are not actually represented during the ending. At all. The question is not about your endgame savestate, it's about the ending itself. How it is written, presented, and shown. We are given three chices (A,B,C) with two variables (Earth and Shepard) and one cutscene that has a color/hue change.

Yes, but LAWYERS could argue there were technically a zillion endings it in court. I think it's a loser.

But that doesn't mean the customers aren't pissed. And you don't need a court to realize this will have a negative effect on future sales.

[SalsaDMA]

XTR3M3 wrote...

thanks for the answer. I agree that trying to get them fired or joining a lawsuit is ridiculous. yet you have gone after me and that other guy and I didn't do either though....
My criticism of their false advertising as described in this thread's OP is what I would call a form of tough love. I have loved BioWare stuff in the past and loved most of ME3. I want them to succeed because that means good games for me to play. If that means I have to bust their chops and call them on their crap to get that, I should have the right to do that, don't you think?

There's a saying somewhere that goes the like of (prob bad translated) "You can learn from your mistakes, but only if you accept them. You don't learn much from when things go well"

[Father_Jerusalem]

slyguy200 wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

...
I do not dismiss valid arguments and counterpoints, I counter them with my own arguments and counterpoints. That is how a discussion works. You will not change my mind, and I will not change yours, but there are points and arguments to be made for BOTH sides.

Simply because you agree with one thing does not automatically make you "the winner" and make me have to kneel at your feet.

Also, please don't bring up "dismissing valid arguments and counterpoints" when you, in this exact thread, are doing the exact same thing.

You do ignore them and then make a wild accusation alot, it is hard to have a rational convo with any of the pro-enders. You mostly seem concerned with dragging others down with you at times.

I'm sorry, I should have bolded the word "valid". The problem with dealing with you, and so many others, is that none of your points are actually VALID.

Please, forgive me, I shall endeavor to do better in the future.