207 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

ArenCordial wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Exactly when the key selling point of not just one game but all three was how the series would adapt to your choices, give me a break.

Honestly can we stop the PR BS?  How hard is it to say 'guys we went with a risky approach to the original ending.   It didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended.   We intend to correct this."

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?


Cheers.

Allan


EDIT: /playsWithFire

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 12 avril 2012 - 12:26 .

[Ghurshog]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Exactly when the key selling point of not just one game but all three was how the series would adapt to your choices, give me a break.

Honestly can we stop the PR BS?  How hard is it to say 'guys we went with a risky approach to the original ending.   It didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended.   We intend to correct this."

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?


Cheers.

Allan

The difference is one implicidly states fault and remorse and the other one doesn't.

I am not taking sides on this but just stating what seems factual

[Kath]

Spikko wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

I chose to to activate Legion in ME2, I trusted him and had him join my squad. I helped him in his loyalty mission.
I recruited Tali, gained her trust by helping her avoiding being exiled.
I resolved their arguing with diplomacy and they started to trust each other.

In ME3 I saved the admiral and I managed, DUE TO ALL THESE CHOICES, to achieve one of the most satisfying diplomatic victory in a videogame: the peace between Geth and Quarian.

Choices mattered A LOT in this game, truth is that people just wanted to see shepard banging his girlfriend on the normandy after a casualty-less victory against reapers.
This is so sad. Seriously, it is.

Speaking of ignoring context...
Yes, throughout the ME3 some choices do matter. The article (you know, what we've been discussing?) is specifically talking about the ending of the game. Your choices mean little more than a number at the end of the game, and you are given one of three nearly identical endings. Which is pretty bad, considering this quote from Casey Hudson:

"It's not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C."

This "truth" you speak of is not what (most) people want. The real "truth" is that people want is to see how they shaped the galaxy with the choices they made throughout the series, as we were told we would. ME3 is supposed to be the end of the trilogy. We were told we would be given closure, and instead we were given "speculation". Which again, is bad considering this quote from the Mike Gamble:

"You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people"

[Allan Schumacher]

Ghurshog wrote...

The difference is one implicidly states fault and remorse and the other one doesn't.

I am not taking sides on this but just stating what seems factual

Would that mean that the issue is actually not with what Gamble said, but that he didn't include any sort of apology to go along with it?

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?


/fireDoesn'tSeemTooHot

[Kanon777]

They will twist anything Bioware say as an insult/dismissal of the fans concern. There is nothing controversial about what Gamble said, people just want a reason to be overreact...

[Kath]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Exactly when the key selling point of not just one game but all three was how the series would adapt to your choices, give me a break.

Honestly can we stop the PR BS?  How hard is it to say 'guys we went with a risky approach to the original ending.   It didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended.   We intend to correct this."

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?


Cheers.

Allan


EDIT: /playsWithFire

He might not be lying, that's true, but when you read all of the interviews from him and Casey Hudson leading up to the release of the game it seems like they knew EXACTLY what the fans wanted. I just don't know how they could have possibly lost touch with that.

And I don't think they ever created the endings with the intentions of making people angry or dissatisfied with the games. I personally think it's a bad mixture of being pressed for time & resources.  I just wish they would say that instead of contradicting themselves. :/

Modifié par Katherine, 12 avril 2012 - 12:37 .

[spacehamsterZH]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?

I think it's just hard for people to believe he or anyone else at BW is seriously surprised people wanted (or rather, expected, tbqh) the choices they had made along the way to be reflected in the ending. The whole concept of choice and consequence seems so integral to the Mass Effect games that it's really kind of puzzling for someone to basically come out and say, well, we didn't think a lot of people thought this was important. I don't think he's lying, but I also really don't understand this statement. It's just really weird.

The other thing is pretty much semantics, gotta agree with you there.

[marstinson]

MOIST N FLUFFY wrote...

Maybe they crashed the ending on purpose, so that we would force them into making a more developed ending. It was the only way to go around EA. Probably not though. That was a really strange thing for him to say.

As conspiracy theories go, it's got just enough plausibility to satisfy the cynics and yet be almost completely unprovable (absent a higher-up 'fessing up on it). The lack of a paper trail is just further evidence of how deep the conspiracy really goes. I like it. 

[OchreJelly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

*Snip*

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?

Well, I disagree that it's splitting hairs. English is quite a complicated language in terms of meanings, and word semantics are rather important in conveying specific intention. I'm sure Gamble means nothing by his choice of words but it conveys an attitude of being aloof and disconnected to a lot of people.

I think at this point, most people just want honest, concrete discussion; solid statements on their own opinions of the issues, not another marketing release filled with statements that are open to interpretation.

EDIT: I understand the reasons why the ME team does not want to discuss anything or debate anything on these boards. But I imagine most decent people would love to have a one-to-one discussion with the writers and other developers of ME3 even if they disagree.

MOAR EDITs: Typos and thought-correction. 

Modifié par OchreJelly, 12 avril 2012 - 12:56 .

[TreguardD]

We can go back and get a flamethrower if you like, Alan.

[Gedgehog]

Sorry to jump in here, but this thread is making me cross.

It just seems that no matter what Bioware do, people complain at them. Alter the endings - still complain. Admit they gaffed up - complain further. Can't people just accept that this was a genuine mistake and that they want to fix it / are fixing it? If it sucks when they release it, be my guest with the complaints, but otherwise just simmer down. This is getting ridiculous. And yes, I hated the endings too, and I understand peoples frustration. However there is no need to complain at EVERYTHING coming from Bioware, all the time.

[Rick Lewis]

I think the old saying holds true here. "Seeing is believing." So yeah, we'll just have to wait and see how well the extra scenes go over. I'll remain objective.

[GBJ13]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Exactly when the key selling point of not just one game but all three was how the series would adapt to your choices, give me a break.

Honestly can we stop the PR BS?  How hard is it to say 'guys we went with a risky approach to the original ending.   It didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended.   We intend to correct this."

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?


Cheers.

Allan

Alan, I think people are expressing several things when they  criticize  that statement
1. One of the allures of hte ME trilolgy was the idea that our choices matter.  The game does a beautiful job at various points in doing that.   The ending, however, seems rather divorced from player's choice. It seems weird that they wouldn't give us what they've usually given us.   
2. People absolutely loved the ending of DAO.  I know they're not the same design teams, but one of DAO's success was the state of satification it gave players.  Same with the Jade Empire's ending.  People have gotten closure on sidekicks before.
3. A lot of people believe the ending was "rushed."  The ending is a Picket Charge into a Reaper.  The cut scenes are minimal and not varied.   Therefore, when a statement veracity seems questionable, a lot of people are likely to assume it's PR speak.

The Bioware brand , in my opinion, is about storytelling-driven narratives with lots of player's choice. The ending really doesn't have that or at the very least doesn't feel like it most players I've talked to.  For us, it's as foreign to the brand.   It'd like the people who made Coke saying "we didn't know you wanted a soft drink."  

[K0M154R]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

First it was the errors in Deception followed by a lot of nitpickiness and bashing the writer's style of storytelling simply because it differs from Drew Karpyshyn.

Second, it was over the existence of the Crucible

Third, people were complaining a lot(technically still are) over the fact that ME3 had a Day One DLC,

Fourth, someone with the Space Edition leaked the endings and described them in a very poor light, which ignited most of the aggression that's going on now. .

Now, ever since ME3 came out, people have been bashing the ending, *snip* in doing so, have provoked Bioware into making this extended cut at the cost of delaying other, more important DLCs.

First: Did you read that book? From the sounds of it, no. I read it, and it sucked on levels I can't begin to describe. Also, even objective reviewers i.e. non-ME fans who reviewed the book were astounded by its terrible narrative, infantile grammar mistakes, and its convoluted plot. Different from Drew Karpyshyn? More like different from Mass Effect. Dietz made up a universe of cereal killers, homosexuals who go hetero, and autistic children that outgrow their condition. Much less a universe devoid of emotion or motivation, you know, the stuff that makes stories.
 
Second: Look at any poll, or read any of the myriad end threads, and the Crucible is rarely even mentioned, much less blamed for the bad ending. How many of you reading this hated the crucible? Let's have a show of hands?

Third: Think back to Kasumi, it cost less than Ashes and gave you more. And it's not like you have a small squad w/o Kasumi as you're still left with something like 10 or so squadmates, but in ME3 you could have fewer squadmates than you did in ME1, so every one counts. We feel cheated. That's our right. Deal with it.

Fourth: So you're saying we're bandwagoning and that this all started with him? Funny how hatred for the endings transcends this forum and goes across the web, through different languages, and different fan bases. I wouldn't call that bandwagoning.

What DLC could be more important than the ending to the game in question? So you'd still want your Overlord DLC if the suicide mission ended at the bang? Oh please, give me a break

Sorry, but...
YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWED

[JaylaClark]

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Given the 'wasteland' and 'no point in playing after the end' quotes from Mac, I can think that exactly one, two at most, writers wanted our choices not to matter in the end. Not sure exactly why anyone would think we wanted to know we saved a lot of people, except we hamstrung civilization as the game world knew it for centuries to come... except if Mac was going through some serious depression while writing this like Douglas Adams did on Mostly Harmless. In that instance, I forgive him but not Casey or his superiors for approving it, we've seen this happen before in a game (Fallout 3) and it too had to be rewritten.

As the game itself seems to go, the entire series before the end is pretty much the preliminaries on American Gladiators (just Gladiators in the UK, I think it ran under the same principle) and the ending is the Eliminator. They distill all of our choices down to a mathematical formula to affect the chosen ending. Which really feels like 'lack of time' to me, but I'll admit I don't think it's bad by itself. DID need to show us a few more examples of how our hard work paid off, though...

I'm damn sure that cooler heads are prevailing, realizing that "if we can salvage any 'happy' to this ending, we should do that, short of inarguable retcons". And it's so absolutely vague that they really don't need to retcon anything to make a happy ending. They do need to handwave the hell out of some points, though.

[chidingewe8036]

For Bioware,The Mass Effect Series Ended at the end of The Suicide Mission where Shepard and his crew flew off into space after having blown the Collectors away and escaping (that is a real ending, with a touch of star wars epicness)

For me personally the series ended in Mass Effect 3 when all the galaxies' ships and races united and were making there way to earth (that was what i have been waiting to see, the most epic moment, the only epic moment of the entire game) that was the end for me, I turned the game off after that and just fan fictioned the rest on paper and it was damn epic!!!!!

So screw you Biofail

[Reptilian Rob]

*Is reading the OP while listening to Trololo.*

Thanks Bioware...Thanks?

[Reptilian Rob]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

The difference is one implicidly states fault and remorse and the other one doesn't.

I am not taking sides on this but just stating what seems factual

Would that mean that the issue is actually not with what Gamble said, but that he didn't include any sort of apology to go along with it?

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?


/fireDoesn'tSeemTooHot

You know, the more you post the more I start to think that there are still honest "key" people at Bioware.

Thanks for coming in here and sharing your thoughts, it really means a lot to a lot of us. 

[Metroidvania]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?

To me, saying "We didn't know demand for closure was so high" implies the sense that the devs had no idea of the possibility that their vision for the ending would be poorly recieved or poorly understood by the consumers to whom they were making the game for.

While "It didn't really work out", at least to me, implies that they knew they were making a 'risky', (for lack of a better term at the moment) venture with the current ending and hoped it would have gone better with or was better understood by fans.

IMO, the latter implies a fully-thought out editting process that took a chance with the ending, while the former shows, or at least hints at, the lack of editting process and having no doubts about the ending.

Granted, it's Bioware's right as an author to proceed with whatever vision of the ending they desire, but when producing for consumers and basing your work off of a series like ME, I think the basic desire/understanding by many of the fans was to be more directly shown how our (major) choices all worked into the conclusion of  'our'' ME story, as well as the overall ME universe. This holds, or at least is somewhat tied into the pre-release PR quotes that are floating around.

Modifié par Metroidvania, 12 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[Blue Liara]

H. Birdman wrote...

"We didn't know people wanted their choices to matter."

Translation: "We ran out of time and money and thought we could get away with it by making the ending vaguely mystical, like an episode of Twin Peaks or something."

You forgot to add that Casey Hudson is so intelligent he just doesn't understand that people won't see things the way he sees it.

Translation: He is so arrogant that he decided to write the whole ending by himself and retrospectively destroy the meaning of an entire series. 

[CronoDragoon]

Some nice parts of this interview. I'm very interested to see how they will make our previous choices matter. The biggest complaint I hear from people is that forging a peace between the geth and quarians makes no difference in the ending, so perhaps the "clarification" will involve the geth surviving provided you did that.

[Eyeshield21]

Katherine wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

This is an easy quote to blow out of context. Keep in mind that when the ME3 team spoke of multiple endings and reflecting player choices during the lead up to release they meant the various story arcs in the game. What they were unaware of was that we wanted the very end of the game to reflect the evolution of those choices made in ME3 at the ending and the final emotional connection to our squad/friends/LI at the very end. They were figuring that those choices were adequately dealt with by the story arcs leading up to the ending. This seems obvious if you read through the evolution of their responses leading up to release and then post-release as they reacted to the backlash about the endings.

No, I'm not blowing it out of context. I have also read/watched previous interviews regarding the endings and player choices. The fact that they "didn't know" that gamers would want to see the result of their choices at the very end of the game smells like bull to me. ME3 was supposed to be the END of the trilogy, yet it does nothing to explain how your choices impacted the galaxy in the end. 

Yeah, its like that final scene in Halo 2, where Adm. Hood says " Master Chief, mind telling me what you're doing on that ship?" and MC says, "Sir, finishing this fight.", but then we got Halo 3, so it was all good. But in this case, ME3 WAS supposed to be the end of the trilogy, and it sounds like BW is just trying to stick to their guns(even though their logic is very wrong) just because they don't want to be seen as pushovers. Then I'll just remind them of Bungie, Bethesda, Blizzard, Valve, Rockstar, and the guys who made Witcher 2, who all listen to their fans' feedback, and actually do some good with it. Though we'll see this summer, either it(the extended cut) restores SOME faith with BW, though I vey much doubt whether they can win me back completely with DA3 or any other titles they make, or just not buy any game with Hudson and/or Walters on the team(DA team is different, I'll give those guys one last chance, but probably not going to pre-order).

[TreguardD]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

The difference is one implicidly states fault and remorse and the other one doesn't.

I am not taking sides on this but just stating what seems factual

Would that mean that the issue is actually not with what Gamble said, but that he didn't include any sort of apology to go along with it?

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?


/fireDoesn'tSeemTooHot

All right, having reread the thread, I think you're actually pretty dead on.

I think one of the reason why the Indoc Theory (please don't debate the merits of it here) gained so much ground, is that most of us loyal ME players simply could not believe that the ending was so crass and abrupt as it was. People looked around for something to explain it. By coincidence or not, they found something that suggested that this was not the end of the story. and they latched on it.

Personally, I'd take that as a huge compliment. We, as a community, think you've got this huge ace hiding in the hole.


(I'll bet if you looked around, the people who have faith in Bioware correlate pretty strongly those who believe the theory was intended.

Me? I don't know. I'm a big fan of the well done Mindscrew (The Prestiege comes to mind), but ... but I just realized I'm going far afield.


Those of the BSN that didn't latch onto it, and took the current ending at face value feel hosed. We've got forums dedicated to specific characters. There's fan vids everywhere of Mordin's parody of Pirates for crying out loud.

What do you mean you didn't expect this? (Emphasis BSN. <_<)

The admission of guilt was hedged with the argument of Artistic Vision instead of the apology that a mistake was made.

This has made a lot of people very unhappy. Even the ones with digital chronometers.

A lot of us would like to have an open dialogue with someone on the ME team. (Don't get me wrong. I'm happy to see you here.) But all we've seen is a vague "We're listening", and a modmin elsewhere that responds to the people raging but not the ones trying to have an actual conversation.



Aha. Wall of text cop is telling me it's time to hit the submit button. Catch you later.

[chidingewe8036]

Everytime I see that scene where all the races are flying towards earth I get major goosebumps, that is where it should have ended if they had time and resource constraints, we could then all kind of make the assumption that Shepard and The newly United Species of The Galaxy destroyed the Reapers conventionally without all that choose this choose right of left, possible Indoctrination bull crap. They should have just kept it simple, oh well my fan made ending is lightyears better than that bologne they gave us!!!!

Oh and in reference to Gamble's statement...........he is simply full of it, period.

[pavi132]

GBJ13 wrote...

3. A lot of people believe the ending was "rushed."  The ending is a Picket Charge into a Reaper.  The cut scenes are minimal and not varied.   Therefore, when a statement veracity seems questionable, a lot of people are likely to assume it's PR speak.

This is definitely the real issue here. The game felt like it was rushed out the door, especially when you compare the depth of other portions of the game with the parts closer to the end of it. Now, I don't know exactly what happened in their offices when making the game or anything, of course, but that really doesn't matter. All that matters is perception, and most of us perceive between the multiplayer, the day 1 DLC, and so on that Bioware didn't put as much effort into the ending of the campaign as it did on other aspects of the game. Again, there is no way to know the truth for sure, and we are probably never going to get a straight answer out of them. Even if we did, many people would call it lies, and we would still have no legitimate proof.

I can't speak for everyone, but at the end of this epic trilogy I was expecting huge cinematics of the final battle raging on, maybe showing all the allies you picked up along the way fighting along side you whether in cinematics or in the actual gameplay. I was expecting something larger and more similar to the ending of DA:O, like many other people were, except that instead of your team against the archdemon, it was your team against Harbinger. The fact that they seem to believe that many of us didn't want something of this sort shows how out of touch with their customers they are.

As for people discussing how no matter what Bioware does or how apologetic they are, etc., people pick everything they say apart, can you really blame people for doing so? After many pre-release quotes were shown to  be false, people had a difficult time trusting anything that Bioware said. Also, they never really apologized for the ending. Whether you believe they need to or not is for you to decide yourself, I'm not saying either way, but they have not really done so as of yet. Most of what they have said is that they believe they were right in their decision and that they are just adding to it, not disappointed in what they made.