207 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

So, the extended ending is going to be redesigned to better reflect the choices that we've made throughout the trilogy?

This is good.

So, the extended ending is going to be redesigned but not let us have any choice to say "No!" to the Godchild? Our final choice and itself, the most important choice we will ever make in the trilogy?

This is "good" as well.

The above statement was redesigned after it was felt it needed "Clarification".

[Peregrin25]

I was just thinking, hypothetically if they were to actually go with Indoctrination Theory, That would be in no way re-writing or changing the end to the game. Everything we have now would still be unchanged, and left in. It would just have all been a dream. or some sucker punch of an attempt to convince Shepard to join the Reapers. the current end would just be a building block to extend the epicness of this sci-fi franchise.

With that said. Why do they say they don't want to change their ending when in fact. Any direction they take is just adding to what is already there. It could have completely different final ending or conclution that no one has even conjured in their minds and it still would have just been built on top of what is already done.

Altering how it ends for real, is just adding character to the story in a manner of speaking. And if Indoctrination Theory is 100% just a creative idea us naive fans. Then we are more creative than BioWare's writers, 'cause in all honesty I think the ending we currently have lacks real creativity. It has been done before and it won't be the last time. It seriously lacks originality.

Modifié par Peregrin25, 12 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[LoneSpartan08]

[quote]Allan Schumacher wrote...

[quote]Ghurshog wrote...

The difference is one implicidly states fault and remorse and the other one doesn't.

I am not taking sides on this but just stating what seems factual

[/quote]

Would that mean that the issue is actually not with what Gamble said, but that he didn't include any sort of apology to go along with it?

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?


/fireDoesn'tSeemTooHot
[/quote

<3

[iheartbob]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Exactly when the key selling point of not just one game but all three was how the series would adapt to your choices, give me a break.

Honestly can we stop the PR BS?  How hard is it to say 'guys we went with a risky approach to the original ending.   It didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended.   We intend to correct this."

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?


Cheers.

Allan


EDIT: /playsWithFire

I don't agree with the above poster that Mike's statement wasn't at all different from lying, but I do wish to point out that these are still two very different statements.

The official statement is, at least in my interpretation of it, one of ignorance.  I don't think it was intended ignorance, but that's the implication to me.  The statement suggests to me that the writers were simply out of touch with what some of their core fans wanted. 

I hate it when people blatantly call these statements "PR bull..." but I understand the desire for a more direct and "honest" approach.  That is to say, if someone came out and said they were attempting a bold and controversal ending on purpose, and unfortunately the fans weren't on board with it, that would be a different shade of horse entirely.  It would reveal they weren't necessarily out of touch with what the fan base wanted, in fact they might have hoped the fans would appreciate this approach to the ending ... but obviously it just didn't turn out that way in the end.

I've been trying to approach the ending debate as neutrally as possible.  Although I was dissapointed by the endings as well, I am looking forward to the ending DLC and I appreciate any time a Bioware team member jumps in the conversation.  I hope you guys aren't at all discouraged by some of the feedback on these boards.  Most of us are relatively sane, I promise.

Modifié par iheartbob, 12 avril 2012 - 01:27 .

[Catroi]

Advertise that all your choices will have a huge impact

doesn't do it

says "we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

Really?

[Dr Hyde]

Well you could further explain how you
propelled element zero across the galaxy without fuel... That would
be interesting. The basic properties of element zero is the ability
to create a field in which mass is lowered or heightened. So how
exactly does that equal it suddenly flying across the relay network
unaided?

Or how about how Anderson and the illusive man can
beat you to the Citadel?
What about how my teammates got on to the
Normandy?
Or how about where all the people on the citadel
went?
Or How the citadel got to earth?
Or how if the citadel
can get to Earth via Relay then how did the asteroid not in arrival
dlc?
Or explaining how exactly you drop out of a mass relay?
Or
explaining how exactly disappearing into a vortex of space magic and
works to make every organic being in the galaxy into part machine
(green. Oops I mean synthesis ending)?
Or explaining how shooting
a cable causes everything to explode and destroy the reapers(destroy
ending)?
Or explaining why Shepard had to hold onto the handle
bars of blue electricity to control the reapers(control ending) ?
Why
can't he also just speak through the reapers once he is in
control?
Why does every mass relay explode?
What happens to the
other races on Earth?
Also why does when you re write the geth the
pulse doesn't destroy the mass relays and re writing reapers does?
So
nanides huh... So how do they work?
So the Rachni Queen... what
happened? I thought she was supposed to be useful?
Nobody on
board the crucible? So how exactly did it get attached to the
citadel?
So how come the council who had access to the entangled
communicators on board the Normandy didn't send a message that the
citadel was under attack? Especially because of the amount of ships
guarding it as well as the number of people on board?
So war
assets were important... right?
Why did the shroud all of a sudden
explode without direct contact of basically anything? I was puzzled
why it was blowing up.
The Catalyst... The God Child needs more
context. We need explanation of his existence. He doesn't make sense.
We need to be able to ask why he is what he is. Is he the first rogue
AI? Did he redefine the 3 laws like in IRobot?
What happens to
the people on the Normandy? Do they just die? Or do Asari rule the
world now? Cause I am pretty sure only humans and asari could
reproduce from those left alive on the Normandy.
Where is my love
interest? Did they mourn me? Who are they with now(if anyone)?
Why
are rachni so easily manipulated? They Speak through thought
manipulation. Shouldn't the reapers only be speaking to them?

Or
maybe where choice actually comes in to play?

I would be
happier with complete failure by Shepard. He could die next to
Anderson and watch as every last person who he knew, die in the final
conflict. I just want things to make sense.

The ending was
like watching the Titanic without knowing its fate. We thought that,
"hey this is the most beautiful ship I have ever been on and
they say its unsinkable right?". We then realize crap its
sinking. It then loses all re-usability. The famed replay value of
the game is to me one of the most important parts. I love Bioware. I
have played bioware games since Knights of the Old Republic. The game
mechanics and feel is so well put together that I was stunned by the
quality. You made most of this game so sublime that it was hard to
see the ending the way it was. I like the game and the journey
through this game but the ending is what makes me go back for more.
It makes me happy to buy DLC and makes the game worth the money.
When I can't really replay it... Well it just feels wrong. It looses
its value. The Game I just spent $80 on for the "exclusive
content" was because I didn't want to miss even a fragment
of this game. I was sincerely let down Bioware, I was hoping for
an epic ending but you failed to deliver. I understand its your story
but, we as readers and participants of your story are not feeling
what you are trying to convey. I can imagine how hard it was to try
to think of a way to satisfy everyone. I just want you to know
that while I am disappointed with how this turned out, I respect your
work. I just wanted a vastly different ending even if its only 2 or
3, because I want to go back and think, what if I has done this or
that? That is the driving element behind a good RPG. I only want to
see your work be the best it can be.

[Zix13]

KeilxKey wrote...

"He added: "It wasn't in the game because we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it ran out of time and sold it anyways, to be honest with you."

[Trellcus]

Okay, Mac Walters himself has co-written comics that detail stories about Liara's journey between 1 and 2, The Illusive Man's rise, Aria losing Omega, and now an entire mini series about various characters lives before the start of the series. They've made four books about side characters. They're now making an anime film about Vega's past. And they didn't think people would care how any of that would turn out?

Clearly they knew people wanted more from the universe as a whole. Clearly they knew Shepherd was nowhere near the only selling point of the series. Clearly they knew people really love some of these characters, ideas, and groups. So.... the heck?

[ArenCordial]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

Exactly when the key selling point of not just one game but all three was how the series would adapt to your choices, give me a break.

Honestly can we stop the PR BS?  How hard is it to say 'guys we went with a risky approach to the original ending.   It didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended.   We intend to correct this."

Hmmm.  How is it different to say "we didn't know there was such a huge demand" all that different from saying that "it didn't really work out for most of our fans as intended."

I guess the idea I'm asking is whether or not people think that the game was released with BioWare thinking "Hah!  This is going to make them so mad!"  If you don't think that, then how is Mike's statement an indication of lying?


Cheers.

Allan


EDIT: /playsWithFire

      Personally I think there is a large difference, but I may not have phrased that as clear as I might have liked. But here's the general jist of the statement that I'd appreciate:   Acknowledgement that the final product was not was advertised (I meant "risky" in that they were aware of this fact, and opted for the more 'open to interpretation' endings with little variance b/w them.   They hoped it would work and it didn't).

     As for your second question, no I don't think BioWare wanted to make their audience angry (who would?).   However I can't believe that no one on the team did not think that we wouldn't question how the game was marketed and sold to its audience versus the final product.    On these very forums there were numerous threads throughout the entire series on how people thought their decisions would pan out in the end game.

Modifié par ArenCordial, 12 avril 2012 - 01:41 .

[Calibrations Expert]

They better not think the closure we want is how the Reapers and star kid were made.

[Spikko]

GorrilaKing wrote...

Spikko wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

I chose to to activate Legion in ME2, I trusted him and had him join my squad. I helped him in his loyalty mission.
I recruited Tali, gained her trust by helping her avoiding being exiled.
I resolved their arguing with diplomacy and they started to trust each other.

In ME3 I saved the admiral and I managed, DUE TO ALL THESE CHOICES, to achieve one of the most satisfying diplomatic victory in a videogame: the peace between Geth and Quarian.

Choices mattered A LOT in this game, truth is that people just wanted to see shepard banging his girlfriend on the normandy after a casualty-less victory against reapers.
This is so sad. Seriously, it is.

Then let us be glad that you fully, truly understood what people really want. I never thought it was that simple...and here I was, believing that I truly wanted a better, more hopeful message in the end. Thank you for explaining my true motivation to me.
Hey, since you have now proven that you can read minds...what were Casey and mark thinking when they wrote this BS?

Yeah, because every story MUST end in a completely happy way.
Your sarcasm is not funny and kinda proves my point.
This ending IS hopeful. Life finds a way even against all the odds.
Through sacrifice yes, but it finds a way.
That's what the final scene with the grandfather and child meant.

I suppose this is just not the kind of fiction for you. Maybe Hello Kitty Online? I heard it's colorful! And nobody gets hurt.

[TreguardD]

Spikko wrote...

<snip the quote chain!>

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

I chose to to activate Legion in ME2, I trusted him and had him join my squad. I helped him in his loyalty mission.
I recruited Tali, gained her trust by helping her avoiding being exiled.
I resolved their arguing with diplomacy and they started to trust each other.

In ME3 I saved the admiral and I managed, DUE TO ALL THESE CHOICES, to achieve one of the most satisfying diplomatic victory in a videogame: the peace between Geth and Quarian.

Choices mattered A LOT in this game, truth is that people just wanted to see shepard banging his girlfriend on the normandy after a casualty-less victory against reapers.
This is so sad. Seriously, it is.

Then let us be glad that you fully, truly understood what people really want. I never thought it was that simple...and here I was, believing that I truly wanted a better, more hopeful message in the end. Thank you for explaining my true motivation to me.
Hey, since you have now proven that you can read minds...what were Casey and mark thinking when they wrote this BS?

Yeah, because every story MUST end in a completely happy way.
Your sarcasm is not funny and kinda proves my point.
This ending IS hopeful. Life finds a way even against all the odds.
Through sacrifice yes, but it finds a way.
That's what the final scene with the grandfather and child meant.

I suppose this is just not the kind of fiction for you. Maybe Hello Kitty Online? I heard it's colorful! And nobody gets hurt.

I believe the sarcasm was lost on you. I'll try the direct way.

We wanted a story that would end with Shepard doing something Science Fictiony.

We got Q.

(Why yes, I do have a certain video in the background. Why do you ask?)

Now do you see why many of us are upset?

Modifié par TreguardD, 12 avril 2012 - 01:44 .

[survivor_686]

Luder09 wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Yeah, that quote kills me.

"we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

What? You didn't know that there was a huge demand for our choices to matter, even though that is something you said over and over was going to happen in the game?

With that sentiment from Bioware, they should have just ended the game when the sparkly elevator was taking Shep up to Starchild

Either he mispoke or they were all talking about another game.

[ArenCordial]

iheartbob wrote...

I don't agree with the above poster that Mike's statement wasn't at all different from lying, but I do wish to point out that these are still two very different statements.

The official statement is, at least in my interpretation of it, one of ignorance.  I don't think it was intended ignorance, but that's the implication to me.  The statement suggests to me that the writers were simply out of touch with what some of their core fans wanted. 

I hate it when people blatantly call these statements "PR bull..." but I understand the desire for a more direct and "honest" approach.  That is to say, if someone came out and said they were attempting a bold and controversal ending on purpose, and unfortunately the fans weren't on board with it, that would be a different shade of horse entirely.  It would reveal they weren't necessarily out of touch with what the fan base wanted, in fact they might have hoped the fans would appreciate this approach to the ending ... but obviously it just didn't turn out that way in the end.

I've been trying to approach the ending debate as neutrally as possible.  Although I was dissapointed by the endings as well, I am looking forward to the ending DLC and I appreciate any time a Bioware team member jumps in the conversation.  I hope you guys aren't at all discouraged by some of the feedback on these boards.  Most of us are relatively sane, I promise.

I hope you aren't calling me insane iheartbob

The heart of the matter to me is why advertise a product having certain features if you don't believe there is a desire for those features.   You advertise what you think people want, to attract potential buyers.   To suddenly say then you didn't think there was a desire for those features seems disingenuous.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Spikko wrote...

*quote pyramid snip*

Yeah, because every story MUST end in a completely happy way.
Your sarcasm is not funny and kinda proves my point.
This ending IS hopeful. Life finds a way even against all the odds.
Through sacrifice yes, but it finds a way.
That's what the final scene with the grandfather and child meant.

I suppose this is just not the kind of fiction for you. Maybe Hello Kitty Online? I heard it's colorful! And nobody gets hurt.

Spikko, the Rannoch and Tuchanka missions were prime examples of how our choices could actually matter throughout the game. When nothing like that played out in the end, it just made the ending look even worse than it was. BioWare showed us it could be done, then copped out on the ending. The only thing that mattered going in was your EMS. That was the ONLY thing. Nothing you did in the previous games influenced the endgame. They might have slightly influenced EMS, but just an evening of playing MP games doubled my EMS score, not the fact I made peace with the geth and the quarians. I don't care what side of the fence you sit on, that's messed up.

Life does indeed find a way, but it is also a game of survival of the fittest. One planet, multitudes of species trying to glean what's left of that planet's resources, or going it alone on their warships to find some other war-torn planet...yep, that looks hopeful for all involved, doesn't it?

You'd know most didn't expect "Hello Kitty" endings if you have read the forums at all in the past month. What we wanted was a range of endings, for our choices to matter, and for there to actually be *gasp* different endings and different choices for the endings based on what we've done. As it stands now, my ruthless renegade and pretty paragon have pretty much exactly the same things happen to them in the end. So much for "choice" and "variation."

Modifié par CDRSkyShepard, 12 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[txmn1016]

As much as I'm glad that we'll get to see how our choices throughout the series will effect the ending, I really hope that they cut the Normandy crash scene. That part of the story was just so pointless and confusing--no amount of clarification could redeem it.

[iheartbob]

ArenCordial wrote...

I hope you aren't calling me insane iheartbob

The heart of the matter to me is why advertise a product having certain features if you don't believe there is a desire for those features.   You advertise what you think people want, to attract potential buyers.   To suddenly say then you didn't think there was a desire for those features seems disingenuous.

Not at all.  Sorry if it came out that way.

I actually haven't seen any insanity on the forums in a while, and everyone in this thread has been reasonably civil (for the most part.)

But I wholeheartedly agree with you.  The statement was a careless statement and I think people might have had more respect for an announcement that explicitly stated they tried to be risky and it backfired, rather than using the "artistic ingenuity" stamp as a scapegoat.

[ArenCordial]

iheartbob wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

I hope you aren't calling me insane iheartbob

The heart of the matter to me is why advertise a product having certain features if you don't believe there is a desire for those features.   You advertise what you think people want, to attract potential buyers.   To suddenly say then you didn't think there was a desire for those features seems disingenuous.

Not at all.  Sorry if it came out that way.

I actually haven't seen any insanity on the forums in a while, and everyone in this thread has been reasonably civil (for the most part.)

But I wholeheartedly agree with you.  The statement was a careless statement and I think people might have had more respect for an announcement that explicitly stated they tried to be risky and it backfired, rather than using the "artistic ingenuity" stamp as a scapegoat.

Oh I wasn't serious about the insanity thing hence the wink.  I feel bad now, I was just teasing.

[Allan Schumacher]

OchreJelly wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

*Snip*

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?

Well, I disagree that it's splitting hairs. English is quite a complicated language in terms of meanings, and word semantics are rather important in conveying specific intention. I'm sure Gamble means nothing by his choice of words but it conveys an attitude of being aloof and disconnected to a lot of people.

I think at this point, most people just want honest, concrete discussion; solid statements on their own opinions of the issues, not another marketing release filled with statements that are open to interpretation.

EDIT: I understand the reasons why the ME team does not want to discuss anything or debate anything on these boards. But I imagine most decent people would love to have a one-to-one discussion with the writers and other developers of ME3 even if they disagree.

MOAR EDITs: Typos and thought-correction. 

Fair response.  Thanks!

[ctanctan]

KeilxKey wrote...

."He added: "It wasn't in the game because we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

How the hell did they not know. "We didn't know that you wanted to see your dicisions playout"

[GeoFukari]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

OchreJelly wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

*Snip*

Saying "We didn't expect it" and "It didn't go over as we had planned" seems like splitting hairs over word semantics, doesn't it?

Well, I disagree that it's splitting hairs. English is quite a complicated language in terms of meanings, and word semantics are rather important in conveying specific intention. I'm sure Gamble means nothing by his choice of words but it conveys an attitude of being aloof and disconnected to a lot of people.

I think at this point, most people just want honest, concrete discussion; solid statements on their own opinions of the issues, not another marketing release filled with statements that are open to interpretation.

EDIT: I understand the reasons why the ME team does not want to discuss anything or debate anything on these boards. But I imagine most decent people would love to have a one-to-one discussion with the writers and other developers of ME3 even if they disagree.

MOAR EDITs: Typos and thought-correction. 

Fair response.  Thanks!

Thans for listening to us Allan. XD

I might now have been a part of this conversation up to now, but the fact we are being talked with by Bioware is relieving.

P.s. You're my Favorite.
P.s.s. Don't tell Stanley.

[iheartbob]

ArenCordial wrote...

Oh I wasn't serious about the insanity thing hence the wink.  I feel bad now, I was just teasing.

I didn't think you were.  No worries.  There were no accusations of liking emo grimdark anything/rainbows and sunshine.  Those have always been the comments that irk me the most on these boards.

[Esoretal]

Yeah, I still don't get that. You didn't know that there was such a huge demand for character closure and plot resolution in a dearly-loved, character-driven series. You didn't know there was such a huge demand for an ending that reflects your choices in a game with a plot that revolves around player choice.

Right.

Modifié par Esoretal, 12 avril 2012 - 02:27 .

[Sifr]

Perhaps the real problem with the statement was that it simply doesn't correlate with what is actually being done and intense fan discomfort. A lot of statements in this thread seem to revolve around the fact we don't really see any point of watching the results of our choices when we were railroaded in our choice over the ending.

Its not the fault of the statement, its the lack of any hope that its trying to inspire.