54 réponses à ce sujet

[ZtriDer1379]

Melee, is it underpowerd?

The 1st round I started, I created my self a rogue. Dual wielding bad ass rogue… I though.
A warrior (changed between Alistar and Sten depending if I need a tank or a
dps), Leliana as a ranged dps, and Morrigan as ranged dps.

The damage my rogue’s where doing where pitiful. Morrigan where doing 60% of all the
damage. Leliana where “pushing” 7%, neither my dual wielding rogue nor ranger
had anything to say…. So I left Leliana more or less out and used my self to
find traps and started to use “Dog”.

But we kept using so many potions, died so many times etc etc, that I decided to restart
over and try a mage.

Now I have a fixed group, my main who is a mage (blood/spirit), Morrigan (Shapeshifter/spirit),
Alistar (templare/champion) and Leliana (bard/ranger).

I have split up the magic specialisation between morrigan and me. Im Fire/earth wail
morrigan are frost/electricity/entropy (spirit damage). I micromanagement the
healing between me and Morrigan wail dps’ing.

Alistar does non to zero damage. All I use him to is a targeting dummy in juggernaut
armor and shield (manage to pickpocket an imba shield from the dwarfs , how
the hell do you pick pocket a shield?? O.o ). Just let the mobs target him wail
Morrigan and me burns down 1 mob at a time.

Leliana is still as useless as ever when it comes to dps. Almost total waist of space. The
only thing she is useful for is open locks and finding traps.

But then again…. Why bring here along? There are so few tings that are of value in
locked chests. And Alistar does not take any damage (almost) from traps. I can
just use him to set them off. Better to bring more dps?

I’m going to do the Stone prisoner when I get home from work. Will probably swap out
Leliana with Shale then.
 
Between Morrigan and me, we are doing about 80% of total dps. Leliana does about 15% and Alistar
does 5% (but then gain, he is a tank)

If you look at the CC that rangers have, like pinning shot, it is almost useless. 2 seconds
stop, and the mobs comes at you at full speed again. Scatter shot? I have yet to
see it work properly. And it takes quite a “long” time to fire off that pinning
shot too… Any other shot that is of any “use” takes an age to fire off.

 

Now compare it to mages. Most of the spells are instant. The CC ability is awesome and you
can turn you’re self into a spell casting moving mountain (juggernaut).

The nukes is unchallenged and most nukes has side effects like DoT or CC.

Pots…..Mages never run “out” of mana. Just use a pot, and you’re back in action, if
not just pop blood mage ability.

Being melee/ranger, you are depending on stamina. I have yet to find any pots that
give you back stamina. If you’re empty, the only thing you can do is to do
nothing, or eat mushrooms (witch gives you back like 5% or something?). Ones
you’re out of stamina, you are just an auto attacking dummy.

Is it my experience of melee that is bad or are melee really underpowered in this game?

As I see it, the more melee/bow users you have in the group, the harder the game will
be. Going without a mage must be more or less impossible.

I know this sound like a lot of QQ’ing, but if I wanna play trough the game again, why
should I try melee if my experience so far saying that playing melee is impossible
doo to more or less no dps?

[Edit] I cleaned that up a bit for you. If you see it again, post in the site help forum about it. -- Kevin

Modifié par ZtriDer1379, 05 décembre 2009 - 12:15 .

[Loetek]

Uhhh... thats a lot of reading man...

[ZtriDer1379]

Is it just me, or are my post full of mso-paremeters etc etc and strange line setup?

[marshalleck]

ZtriDer1379 wrote...

Is it just me, or are my post full of mso-paremeters etc etc and strange line setup?

As you may have noticed, these forums are still very much in a beta state of development despite being thrust into the forefront.

Yes, your first post is full of strange formatting garbage.

[Skye Kross]

hmm i dont know with you. my rogue contributes 70% on mid game, but it goes down to 30% in the end because of my own spell combos and AOEs. but i dont know what your build is, but my rogues job is to kill the mage and or anyone that turns its back. but anyway maybe your are just fit to be a mage then any other class i guess.

i would say melee is underpowered because mages have lyrium potions. remove that then they will be in same trouble as melee i guess.

[Wardawg1001]

A long post about a topic thats been beaten to death, resurrected, beaten to death again, buried, set to fire, and dumped in a pool of acid. Do some searching, you'll find multiple 100+ post threads on this issue.

[throttlesays]

Two things:

1) Melee is not underpowered. It seems to be exactly where it should be in accordance to the challenges of the game. When playing a party of all melees except for Wynne, I feel that this is exactly what the game should be like. It's just that mages are too powerful and trivialize the game. For kicks and curiosity, I made a mage main character and took both Morrigan and Wynne with me as well as a purely tank-build Alistair, and it was a joke, breezing through nightmare without having to load more than once every three hours or so. Being able to instantly clear almost any group of mobs with two simultaneous AoE spells, or crowd controlling everything in sight removes any element of difficulty from the game. With more than one character who can heal, noone dies. A properly built DW rogue/warrior has a sustained single target damage output somewhat higher than most mages, but this is irrelevant when the mage can deal 75% of that damage to everything within a 50 yard radius.

2) Melee characters need to be built properly. If you screw up your build, the character will be useless. As is usually the case in games of this genre, most people mess up their first couple of characters until they figure out how stuff works. Mages can be powerful almost regardless of how you build them, and they have access to so many more spells than melees get abilities. You only have two stats to worry about and it's pretty obvious that the rest of them are useless, so making mistakes with your stat placement is rare. All you need to do in order to make a mage vastly more powerful than any poorly built melee is pick Fireball and Cone of Cold. You could pick your spells blindfolded and probably end up with a build that works. What happens to most players is they make something like an archer rogue or 2H warrior as their first char, end up with a horrible build, and then try a mage only to find that it is five times better than their first character. Once they've then played through the game a handful of times and studies some real builds, they figure out that melees can work perfectly fine, it's just that mages are still so much better.

Modifié par throttlesays, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[PurplePaladin]

I have a 1h/sheild for my main, 2h warrior, Wyne (just heals nonstop mostly) and Leilana, and she does ok damage. My warriors do most the damage. I have her set to attack Mages first, and she takes them out darn fast usually (sometimes before my warriors can run all the way over to them).



People don't "see" warriors take/absorb the damage, they only notice them dishing it out. If they had a stat "Party Damage Absorb %" you would see how OP they are in how they stop/prevent SO much damage to themselves and others. If you think about it, taunt is really OP (pretty much instantly stops all damage, from all enemies on any player). It's like a verbal force field.

[Zenon]

Sten: "No!"



Ok, here a bit more on my view: When I played a dual wield rogue the rogue makes usually less damage per hit with two daggers than a two handed sword wielder. But then he hits maybe between 3 or 4 times as fast.



Concerning melee vs ranged: Problem with ranged fighters is in my experience more, that they don't hit as often as a melee fighter. With enough dex that should work out fine.



Concerning melee vs. magic: Mages can deal damage to many targets at once with AoE spells. But then again, e.g. a rogue can throw bombs as well. Even considering the area of some spells is very large it costs quite some mana and time to cast them. In that time a rogue or warrior could also kill some targets. Dual weapon sweep and such are melee skills, which deal damage to more than one target at once.



In fact when I played my rogue, battles seemed faster paced with enemies falling more quickly than with my mage. (Ok my rogue is only about level 7 at this point.)



P.S.: Because I messed with my game using the dex hotfix, I deleted affected character files to start again... *sigh*

[ZtriDer1379]

Well, when playing melee, I get the feeling of being punished for playing melee and reworded for playing mage.

Melee moves costs so much stamina that being main dps'er (any rogue or dps warrior) is impossible.

The good thing is that the more armor you have, the more passive threat you create.

I have maxed Alistar's weapon and shield. Juggernaute + shield wall and shield mastery and shield expert makes him a nice target dummy. But 1 shield bash, 1 pummel and 1 assauls, and he is out of stamina. He can't do jack **** but auto attack and passive threat trough high armor.



If I play the game again, why should I play meleen when it feels gimped and ruined?

So it is harder, just play better? Why do we even have difficulty choosing when starting the game? Why should it be armogeddon hard on easy difficulty because you play melee?



It does not matter what class you play, on easy, it should be easy, not “****ing you over hard”.

On hard, it should be hard, not “forget it, reroll a mage”.



If I play again, and I want to play with melee dps, and a mage healer (not using the mage as dps), why must I be limited to only 2-4 moves the whole fight for then limiting my self to auto attack wail playing a mage I can go troug the whole spell/ability repeater and then “reset” it and do it again?

When playing melee, I would love to be able to use different abilities trough out the fight. Get the feeling that he is more useful then just autoattack and 2-4 abilities.



If this is a topic that’s been beaten to death, resurrected, beaten to death again, buried, set to fire, and dumped in a pool of acid so many times, and there is 100s of pots out there about it, then we need 100000 more posts.



Why? Because people are not happy with the situation as it is now.



Why should it feel like a penalty to play melee? Why must it feel like playing a auto attack dummy playing a melee?



I don’t want melee to be OP, I want melee to feel rewording.

Getting trough the game using max 2-4 abilities in a fight for then auto attack 70% the rest of the fight is not rewording.

[ZtriDer1379]

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throttlesays
wrote...



2) Melee characters need to be
built properly. If you screw up your build, the character will be useless. As
is usually the case in games of this genre, most people mess up their first
couple of characters until they figure out how stuff works. Mages can be
powerful almost regardless of how you build them, and they have access to so
many more spells than melees get abilities. You only have two stats to worry
about and it's pretty obvious that the rest of them are useless, so making
mistakes with your stat placement is rare. All you need to do in order to make
a mage vastly more powerful than any poorly built melee is pick Fireball and
Cone of Cold. You could pick your spells blindfolded and probably end up with a
build that works. What happens to most players is they make something like an
archer rogue or 2H warrior as their first char, end up with a horrible
build, and then try a mage only to find that it is five times better than their
first character. Once they've then played through the game a handful of times
and studies some real builds, they figure out that melees can work perfectly
fine, it's just that mages are still so much better.

 

This is 1
problem. Melee is extreme build dependent and casters are extreme build friendly.


 

How do you
think I feel when I dump hours after hours into a game for finding out that my
melee if just ****ed up and useless because of a build fail?

Do you
think I want to play the game more because it feels “ruined and stupid”?

 

Because as
melee I need Wisdom for stamina, Constitution for HP, Dexterity for dodge and
defence, strength for damage….

A melee
user need to balance his stats between 4 different stats wail mages more or
less just need to dump it all into magic.

So playing
a melee class is hard. It is more or less ONLY for thous who have played trough
the game 1ns and having the experience how to spec and where to put stat
points.

Playing
melee is not for the new comers. It should not really be an option even on the
1st time run of the game. How many do you think quits the game
because their favourite class in life (warrior/rogue) feels useless?

 

Bah.. Lets
just keep beating the dead burned horse until some changes is made

Modifié par ZtriDer1379, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[Skye Kross]

ummm.. try some other way to do better in melee classes or maybe you are meant to be a mage.

and yes alot of people say the game is hell hard and you are one of them. so stick with mage coz thats waht you are good at.

you find it rewarding to play a mage, and i find it rewarding to play as a rogue, im not even cunning rogue lol

[Rainen89]

Melee is not underpowered stop posting that it is. Yes mages do well but their single target dps in comparison to say dual wield cunning rogue is quite low. You do get to blow @#*@# up though.

[ZtriDer1379]

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Skye
Kross wrote...



ummm.. try some other way to do better in melee classes or maybe you are meant
to be a mage.

and yes alot of people say the game is hell hard and you are one of them. so
stick with mage coz thats waht you are good at.

you find it rewarding to play a mage, and i find it rewarding to play as a
rogue, im not even cunning rogue lol

 

I like to
be up close and persoan. I have more or less always loved to play a melee user.
I have never liked being a caster. Not in any MMORPG, not in Baldros gate or
neverwinter nights. I am a person who likes to “use” my character. It means I like
to be able to have my character active trough out a fight. If my characters are
only able to be “active” for 30% of the fight for then just to stay there and auto
attacking the rest of the fight, I do not find it rewording.

Click,
autoattack, wait, and then find next target for click, autoattack, wait, is not
rewording.

IMO,
special attacks and abilities should be a bigger part of a melee user then it
is today.

To be successful
as a mage, you need to micromanage his spells depending on the situation, and
you can do it because you have the recourses to keep pushing the spells.

 

When
playing melee, I feel like I’m restrained. I can’t dish out 3 – 5 dps abilities
on a target for then change target and do the same. Having multiple targets is
like an auto attack feast when playing melee. And you do not have any “OH ****”
abilities, or if you have, you need to save stamina for it and not be able to
nuke.

 

Playing a
mage is to easy yes. You can nuke like hell and still be able to use “OH ****”
abilities AND CC, wail playing a melee you can’t. You have to choose to use you’re
stamina on CC OR nuke OR oh **** abilities, you can’t choose 2 of them.

 

So in the
end, playing a mage is giving you way to much freedom and playing a melee is
restraining you to much.

 

IMO both
player aspects need to be tuned.

[Zenon]

I would like to ask, why you feel max DPS as the main character is an important goal? You basically play the whole party. Theoretically you can choose to control e.g. Alistair more than your main char in most of your battles. This may even make sense, if the tactics of your mage or ranged char is good enough to keep him/her out of trouble while Alistair may need more direct control to fight to his best abilities in melee.



Maximizing DPS comes from MMORPGs where EXP is distributed in groups based on damage. In a solo RPG, where kills of the group is distributed among all members the DPS theme is absolutely secondary. Of course you may want to be proud to have a megakiller char being more powerful than other companions. Then again this mindset will limit your possible fun with the game IMHO.

[Rainen89]

I love the poem format btw. Melee is intuitive and fun especially towards the end when you unlock certain things the most challenging thing I think most people struggle with is positioning. Moving them to the right place and/or making them hit a certain mob can drastically alter how the fight plays out. At least if you play with friendly fire on.

[Zenon]

If you insist on being a mega powerful melee char, make an AW/BM wearing the dragon plate set or juggernaut set, a great melee weapon (starfang or topsider) and perhaps the redcliffe elite shield...

[ZtriDer1379]

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Rainen89
wrote...



Melee is not underpowered stop posting that it is. Yes mages do well but their
single target dps in comparison to say dual wield cunning rogue is quite low. You
do get to blow @#*@# up though.

 

I can keep
spaming:

Arcane Bolt,
Winter’s Grasp, Lightning, Stone fist in a rotation alredy early in the game.

Wail my
melee are out stamina or saving stamina for special events/happenings, I can
keep going with that mage rotation like there is no to morrow.

And on top
of that, the magic damage rotation also have CC’s like freeze and knock back.

 

Is it so
bad to wish for more balance for gameplay between the classes? I don’t want to
feel like I have to have a mage in the group (except for healing) to be able to
nuke and CC or to have a “oh ****” ability.

 

Why are the
melee moves so ****ing expensive to use on the stamina?

Modifié par ZtriDer1379, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:43 .

[Skye Kross]

all i got to say, play around until you know how it works. i learned it the hard way, and it was good.

and every character you control needs to be micromanged. attacking from behind benifits non rogues too for extra to hit bonus.

this is not D&D, and mmos has so much skill usage coz you are using only 1 character to make it interesting. but this game you are using 4.

but anyway, keep trying and you will find out how to use melees. just keep doing it until you see that blood on your face! XD just make sure its not yours hehehe

[ZtriDer1379]

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Skye
Kross wrote...



all i got to say, play around until you know how it works. i learned it the
hard way, and it was good.

and every character you control needs to be micromanged. attacking from behind
benifits non rogues too for extra to hit bonus.

this is not D&D, and mmos has so much skill usage coz you are using only 1
character to make it interesting. but this game you are using 4.

but anyway, keep trying and you will find out how to use melees. just keep
doing it until you see that blood on your face! XD just make sure its not yours
hehehe

 

Oh I know
I love to micromanage a fight. I always try to position my characters as
best as possible before a fight. Rogues my be the class that depends the most
on positioning, but you still need to position you’re mages too do to AoE
spells like cones and lightning.

And you
need to position them tactically depending on the area/room. Prevent the toons
from clustering up and who will get in the 1st shot or pull agro intentional
or unintentional.

 

I am trying
to play the warrior and the ranger, but it is extreme limited to what I can do
with them do to stamina limit.

And using
passive activation abilities with an uptime cost makes it even harder. Having Alistar
using shieldwall and threat at the same time ½ my stamina pool. Now I just go
to him to make him do a pummel or something now and then. Why should I control him
if there is nothing to control but autoattack? Same with my ranger.

One or two upkeep
abilities and the stamina is ½ the stamina pool. Just enough stamina for 2
special moves.

 

I am on my
mage more because he has something he can do all the time, there are not 1
second in a fight where he can’t do something to contribute to the fight that
is not autoattack.. If there is, it is because he already is doing something
ells. There is no dead time. Micromanaging 2 mages is like pausing the game
every second to order a new spell you want depending on the situation.

 

Yes, mages
are to powerful in this game, and melee is the underdog.

 

I kinda don’t
want to play a melee class in DAO. It feels so limited, so “un-usefull” to play.
Watching my toon autoattack 70% trough every fight is not fun. And if ****
happens, there is nothing he can do.

My ranger
has a ton of abilities, but can’t even use 1/5 of them in a fight because of
the lack of stamina. For not speaking of using an ability twice.

Modifié par ZtriDer1379, 05 décembre 2009 - 10:44 .

[rheed]

Just start the battles with your sustained abilities deactivated, burn your stamina then activate them. Tadda! You got free stamina to spare. I think the real problem isn't the low stamina pool or the huge cost, the problem is the skills that regenerate stamina aren't even noticeable, and the items giving stamina regeneration are close to useless cause it doesn't seem a difference having them or not. A good solution would be adding some sort of regeneration based on a stat, maybe dexterity or willpower.



Anyway for a melee using skills when you got your "auras" up means loosing dps

[Matthew Young CT]

mages arent rly op, mages with lyrium pots are op



dont enter fights with threaten+shield wall up if you want to have stamina shrug



melee characters arent supposed to spam abilities. though my rogue can, with mass rejuv and rejuv being spammed on me, and wearing +regen items

[ZtriDer1379]

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As I see
it, it all comes to balance in gear VS stats VS spec.

 

This is how
I see it.

Warriors.
Take a tank.

He needs
str, agi, wis
and sta.

Str because
new abilities in the talent tree “REQUIRES” str…

Agi to
increase dodge and defence.

Wis to increase stamina.

Con to
increase HP.

Now how you
balance it is up to you, but you still need this 4 stats more or less.

 

If you are
going dps warrior, you need Str, wis
and a bit sta if you can afford to spare a few points.

 

And on top
of this, gear. Warrior weapons and armor requires str. So you are in the end
needs to put 2 of the 3 points into str every LvL to be able to upgrade to gear
that fits you’re LvL.

And do not
come here and tell me gear does not matter when you are a tank…..

That leaves
you to use 1 point every LvL on any of the other 3 stats…….

Tank:

1st
pri: Str,

2nd
pri: wis/sta

3rd
pri: agi

 

DPS:

1st
pri: str

2nd
pri: wis

3rd
pri: sta

 

Rogues.

Dexterity,
wisdom and cunning and a small amount of str

Armor
(leather to keep the fatige down) requires a low amount of str (between 10 and
20 depending on tier) so you do not exactly have to concentrate on str.

1h Weapons
require dex.

A rogue
requires dex for hit and damage.

A rogues
damage skill requires dex, rogue abilities are split in two and requires dex
and other ½ requires cun.

Stamina
still requires wisdom. (I still done’t understand why winsdom effects stamina…
it is like reading a book makes you run longer O.o? )

So in the
end no matter what spec you choose as rogue, you need high dex and cun and a
moderate amount of wisdom.

1st
pri: Agi

2nd
pri: cun/wis

3rd
pri: str

 

 

Now mages….

Weapon:
Magic.

Skills: ALL
magic.

Armor: Clothing.
Restriction? LvL?

So if you
put 2 points into magic and 1 point into wisdom every LvL, you can’t go wrong. No
matter spec. You do not need stamina. That is what you have the warrior for,
unless you are going Arcane Warrior.

1st
pri: mag

2nd
pri: wis

 

And imo
this does not look balanced. Feel free to disagree.

Modifié par ZtriDer1379, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:30 .

[ZtriDer1379]

.............. this forum starts to annoy me really bad now.... Not because of you guys I just love a good discussion, but because of all the errors I get from posting, can’t edit my posts, getting strange line setup etc etc :s



But… EDIT on 1st line of the warrior need.. the “CON” is supposed to be “STA”… I’m so used to constitution

[kevinwastaken]

I dunno... is bashing someone's face in underpowered? Maybe... maybe not.