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[Eternal Phoenix]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

She is called the Bride of The Maker.

The Catholic Church is referred to as the Bride of Christ.  Mental image left up to you.

They refer to themselves as that. Andraste however is called The Bride of The Maker in The Chant and even that ashwraith which was meant to be her husband suggests he was jealous which is why he betrayed her. He ends his dialogue with "how can one compete against a god?"

If Andraste and The Maker weren't involved what would he have to be jealous of?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 12 avril 2012 - 03:12 .

[Chiramu]

One question to answer the question, "Is God real?" if you can answer that you have your answer...

[Xerxes52]

I like to think that the Maker is real, he's also known as Fen'Harel, and he enjoys screwing with us.

No evidence of course, but it's that's my explanation.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Withidread wrote...

Didn't this end up being an April Fool's joke by another artist unrelated to Bioware?

There's an obvious clue that it isn't real right there in the image, so I can't fault Maria for using it as a joke.

[Aldandil]

There's a ton of things that shouldn't be accepted as fact in theDAs. The Maker would be one of them, but also the belief that Old Gods + Corruption = Archdemon. We know that there are Archdemons. We do not know that there are Old Gods. There is no reason to believe that there only will be two more Blights, for instance. None of this means that some of these things couldn't be true (or all of them). But based on what we see in the games, the only thing we can know for sure is that most magic or "supernatural" phenomena come from the Fade and are related to spirits/demons.

[HanErlik]

"The maker is not real, he is a fictional character" - Captain Obvious, 12 April 2012, South London

[whykikyouwhy]

Elton John is dead wrote...
They refer to themselves as that. Andraste however is called The Bride of The Maker in The Chant and even that ashwraith which was meant to be her husband suggests he was jealous which is why he betrayed her. He ends his dialogue with "how can one compete against a god?"

If Andraste and The Maker weren't involved what would he have to be jealous of?

Just a thought, but isn't it possible that Maferath was simply jealous of the attention Andraste paid to matters of faith? The dedication and single-minded focus she had to both to the rebellion and to worship? If he, at that time, did not share that vision, did not feel himself enlightened or favored as she took herself to be, then there may have been some inequality in their union (if only in perception - that they each saw things from a different angle). Some people cannot abide by such strong differences, and that could spark jealousy - because their spouse/partner/loved one is completely involved in something that seems so foreign and removed, and is deriving some pleasure/strength/contentment from that.

"Involved" may not have been a literal physical thing, so much as it was an involvement of the heart and spirit.

[Xewaka]

The Maker is as real to the setting's populace as the judeo-christian-muslim god was to the jews, christians and muslims of the middle ages.
And that way is much more interesting than the "definitely real, definitely meddling in mortal affairs" pantheons of most PnP RPG settings.

[brushyourteeth]

Xewaka wrote...

The Maker is as real to the setting's populace as the judeo-christian-muslim god was to the jews, christians and muslims of the middle ages.
And that way is much more interesting than the "definitely real, definitely meddling in mortal affairs" pantheons of most PnP RPG settings.

THIS THIS THIS!

one of the things that makes the game most interesting to me is how there seems to be some sort of credit given to each of the religions in the DA universe that they might be plausible (except the dwarven and elven religions, but I have my reasons for expecting that to change soon). I like the idea that even if there is another explanation (lyrium, demons, etc.) that religious people aren't stupid -- their beliefs stem from something real.

We know Andraste was real, her ashes do heal, her followers stick with her in the Gauntlet (ash wraiths, though? that part's tricky), darkspawn are real, and the black city is definitely real. I love what the writers do with those "what if" moments, like Anders near the end of the Legacy expansion.

It would be interesting to discover that the Maker isn't who we expect him to be, though I don't think Bioware will alienate their fans by taking a real life religious parallel off the rails.

So is the Maker real? Mr. Gaider's favorite answer seems to be something like... yes. I mean maybe. I mean yes... maybe.

[TEWR]

benlg wrote...

Then why did andrastes ashes heal Eamon if not touched by the maker.

Oghren says the entire mountain is running thick with lyrium and that might have been causing the magical properties of the area -- the Guardian's survival through the centuries being one of those 'magical' things.

[Uccio]

Merrill spoke of god called "trickster" or something in DA2. Apparently this god fooled and sealed other gods off from Thedas. Maybe he appeared to Andraste and introduced himself as "the maker". Also, maybe he also fooled mages to invade the fade with stories about "golden city" when he knew what going physically into the fade and that specific location would do to mages? So maybe there are only elven gods.

[Aldandil]

Ukki wrote...

Merrill spoke of god called "trickster" or something in DA2. Apparently this god fooled and sealed other gods off from Thedas. Maybe he appeared to Andraste and introduced himself as "the maker". Also, maybe he also fooled mages to invade the fade with stories about "golden city" when he knew what going physically into the fade and that specific location would do to mages? So maybe there are only elven gods.

Then again, maybe there aren't any elven gods at all.

[TEWR]

Aldandil wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Merrill spoke of god called "trickster" or something in DA2. Apparently this god fooled and sealed other gods off from Thedas. Maybe he appeared to Andraste and introduced himself as "the maker". Also, maybe he also fooled mages to invade the fade with stories about "golden city" when he knew what going physically into the fade and that specific location would do to mages? So maybe there are only elven gods.

Then again, maybe there aren't any elven gods at all.

There's a codex in the Black Emporium that says that Fen'Harel -- the Trickster -- is very much alive and walking throughout the world.

[biiskit]

Simple answer is we don't know and aren't meant to know. The writers went to great pains in DA:O to make it ambiguous as to whether the chantry's religion is real or not and that's good, it should be ambiguous cos it makes people ask questions.

[Always Alice]

The Maker's existance (or non-existance) in-game is a bit of a moot point, since the developers are intentionally leaving it ambiguous. That being said, I do think that an entity that refers to himself as "the Maker" exists in the game. He might not match up exactly with the Chantry's version of him, but I do think he exists, maybe not turning away from humanity so much as sitting back and seeing how things unfold.

[Silfren]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the Maker is real... but he's not what the Chantry thinks he is. Just like the Old Gods weren't what the Tevinter Empire thought they were.

We might even be meeting him in DA III. Look at this concept art:

Is there a compelling reason to think this might be the Maker?  I didn't think of it as such, and even with the suggestion putting it in mind, I still see nothing about this to make that a credible guess.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

benlg wrote...

Then why did andrastes ashes heal Eamon if not touched by the maker.

Oghren says the entire mountain is running thick with lyrium and that might have been causing the magical properties of the area -- the Guardian's survival through the centuries being one of those 'magical' things.

I wish this had been played up more, because these vague mentions don't do much against the fact that the story as presented doesn't leave much room for ambiguity.  Not only do we have the Magical Healing Ashes, but we have all the spirt-forms of Andraste's disciples--and her earliest enemies, for that matter--and the Guardian.  And now we have the events from Legacy.  

At the  very beginning, Bioware did an excellent job of making the entire backdrop of the Chantry, Andraste, the Maker, and all the attendant trappings, realistically vague enough to make skepticism plausible.  But then they added in the Sacred Ashes questline, and gave us Corypheus, and it's harder and harder to ignore this physical evidence that much of the Chantry's religious claims are literally true.

The Sacred Ashes story could have been written so that more attention was given to the question of why the ashes have the ability to heal, instead of just going with the assumption that they really did have healing powers just because they were the ashes of Andraste herself.  A throwaway line about the presence of all that lyrium really doesn't do much.  But had there been some cut-scene dialogue from some of the more skeptical characters--Morrigan would have been the obvious choice, for cripes' sake!!--speculating on a more "scientific" explanation, I'd be better able to believe that it had been truly left open for debate. 

Then again, I'm still trying to figure out why we are all expected to believe that Jowan, of all people, had the knowledge and skill to create some kind of magical poison that not one other person in all of Ferelden had a clue about or how to counter.  I'd have found it far more believable if a certain Witch of the Wilds had been responsible for Eamon's condition, because at least it would have made sense for HER to have that kind of secret knowledge.

[Rawgrim]

The maker is real. He\\she ressurected Leliana and Zevran for DA2.

[HiroVoid]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

benlg wrote...

Then why did andrastes ashes heal Eamon if not touched by the maker.

Oghren says the entire mountain is running thick with lyrium and that might have been causing the magical properties of the area -- the Guardian's survival through the centuries being one of those 'magical' things.

I wish this had been played up more, because these vague mentions don't do much against the fact that the story as presented doesn't leave much room for ambiguity.  Not only do we have the Magical Healing Ashes, but we have all the spirt-forms of Andraste's disciples--and her earliest enemies, for that matter--and the Guardian.  And now we have the events from Legacy.  

At the  very beginning, Bioware did an excellent job of making the entire backdrop of the Chantry, Andraste, the Maker, and all the attendant trappings, realistically vague enough to make skepticism plausible.  But then they added in the Sacred Ashes questline, and gave us Corypheus, and it's harder and harder to ignore this physical evidence that much of the Chantry's religious claims are literally true.

The Sacred Ashes story could have been written so that more attention was given to the question of why the ashes have the ability to heal, instead of just going with the assumption that they really did have healing powers just because they were the ashes of Andraste herself.  A throwaway line about the presence of all that lyrium really doesn't do much.  But had there been some cut-scene dialogue from some of the more skeptical characters--Morrigan would have been the obvious choice, for cripes' sake!!--speculating on a more "scientific" explanation, I'd be better able to believe that it had been truly left open for debate. 

Then again, I'm still trying to figure out why we are all expected to believe that Jowan, of all people, had the knowledge and skill to create some kind of magical poison that not one other person in all of Ferelden had a clue about or how to counter.  I'd have found it far more believable if a certain Witch of the Wilds had been responsible for Eamon's condition, because at least it would have made sense for HER to have that kind of secret knowledge.

Haven't played Legacy, but since it seems at least part of that Chant is true, it does prove that the Chant has at least some merit even if you don't believe all of it.  I'm still interested in how lyrium veins gives a person the ability to read minds and immortality.  I suppose he could be some special type of spirt merging.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Rawgrim wrote...

The maker is real. Heshe ressurected Leliana and Zevran for DA2.

Oh yeah! I forgot about this actually and Leliana even mentions this.

/thread I guess.

Though I'm clueless as to why The Maker would bring Zevran back since Zevran isn't an adherant of The Maker.

[VampOrchid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, the Maker is real... but he's not what the Chantry thinks he is. Just like the Old Gods weren't what the Tevinter Empire thought they were.

We might even be meeting him in DA III. Look at this concept art:

where did you find this?

[VampOrchid]

The Ashes...well maybe that's the only thing that neutralizes the poison...ashes...not HER ashes per say...just any.

Yup all they had to do was spread some ash from the fire pit and that probably would have saved them one hell of a trip lol