94 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Speaking as a Catholic, my understanding of the possible theological implications of the DA series is based according to this structure - At the peak is the Maker wherein all that is seen or unseen exists  Below the Maker in devine hierarchy are the demiurgic lesser spirits . The considerable portion of these lesser spirits that rebelled against the The Maker are who the old Tevinter empire worshipped as the Old gods.

Modifié par Gwindor The Witchhunter, 13 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

As far as the world of Thedas is concerned. The existence of The Maker shouldn't really be the question. Its apparent enough that spirits do exist. You need to take into account Chantry Lore, secular Historical accounts (codexes found at random locations), the experiences of your party members such as Wynne and Leiliana, encounters with benevolent spirits, demons and darkspawn to help course your belief in accordance with either Chantry or Tevinter historical accounts.Personally, i believe in the Chantry because their understanding of The Maker falls with my own spiritual views.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Your post is very confusing. Polytheism does not disproves the existence of God. The One God of Judaic Christian tradition. Make that very clear in your head first.

[whykikyouwhy]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

Your post is very confusing. Polytheism does not disproves the existence of God. The One God of Judaic Christian tradition. Make that very clear in your head first.

If you are referring to the OP, I don't think (s)he is stating that polytheism proves the existence of a divine being. I read the OP as hypothesizing ("what if" is used in that post) that if what/who is viewed as the "one true God" IRL, across numerous faiths, might actually be multiple gods, then could not the same be the case in Thedas - where the Maker is actually many gods, but the various peoples are worshipping one select face of that god.

Which is an interesting point of view (and coincides with my own piñata theory, but I digress). Proving the existence of a deity, whether IRL or in a game, runs the risk of only going so far, because the perceived nature of the divine is to be somewhat removed from the tangible - existence is supported by faith, belief, resolve. And while you can point to things in the world as evidence, much relies on what is within an individual's heart and mind. And that defies scientific equation.

I doubt we will ever truly know what the intention of the devs is in relation to the Maker - and I suspect they are being purposely vague and hazy on the matter because they want to keep that matter open and broad. The elves worship their own pantheon, the dwarves have the Stone as the basis of their faith, Old Gods received the worship of many in Thedas' past and present. You have a rich blending of concepts of the divine - you have multiple faces to represent and symbolize the characteristics and qualities of mortal creatures, all captured within the form(s) of an almighty, all removed from the mortal so that those fragile beings can find purpose/solace/guidance/etc.

Overall, the question of the Maker's existence is interesting and compelling, because much of the game lore, much of the character motivation we have seen thus far, is linked to that entity and the faith built around him. And so for that reason, if nothing else, speculation is a wonderful thing. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 13 avril 2012 - 10:51 .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

Your post is very confusing. Polytheism does not disproves the existence of God. The One God of Judaic Christian tradition. Make that very clear in your head first.

If you are referring to the OP, I don't think (s)he is stating that polytheism proves the existence of a divine being. I read the OP as hypothesizing ("what if" is used in that post) that if what/who is viewed as the "one true God" IRL, across numerous faiths, might actually be multiple gods, then could not the same be the case in Thedas - where the Maker is actually many gods, but the various peoples are worshipping one select face of that god.

Which is an interesting point of view (and coincides with my own piñata theory, but I digress). Proving the existence of a deity, whether IRL or in a game, runs the risk of only going so far, because the perceived nature of the divine is to be somewhat removed from the tangible - existence is supported by faith, belief, resolve. And while you can point to things in the world as evidence, much relies on what is within an individual's heart and mind. And that defies scientific equation.

I doubt we will ever truly know what the intention of the devs is in relation to the Maker - and I suspect they are being purposely vague and hazy on the matter because they want to keep that matter open and broad. The elves worship their own pantheon, the dwarves have the Stone as the basis of their faith, Old Gods received the worship of many in Thedas' past and present. You have a rich blending of concepts of the divine - you have multiple faces to represent and symbolize the characteristics and qualities of mortal creatures, all captured within the form(s) of an almighty, all removed from the mortal so that those fragile beings can find purpose/solace/guidance/etc.

Overall, the question of the Maker's existence is interesting and compelling, because much of the game lore, much of the character motivation we have seen thus far, is linked to that entity and the faith built around him. And so for that reason, if nothing else, speculation is a wonderful thing. 

Your the first person i have encountered in a forum like this who has a clear matured grasp on how a person establishes religious or spiritual faith.  Salute!

[TheKristoffski]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

Your post is very confusing. Polytheism does not disproves the existence of God. The One God of Judaic Christian tradition. Make that very clear in your head first.

Im not saying Polythesim disproves that their is a god, im not suggesting anything, but if anything the only thing polythesim would prove is that there is more than one god

[Silfren]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The maker is real. Heshe ressurected Leliana and Zevran for DA2.

Oh yeah! I forgot about this actually and Leliana even mentions this.

/thread I guess.

Though I'm clueless as to why The Maker would bring Zevran back since Zevran isn't an adherant of The Maker.

And it's already been established that Zevran was not retconned into being alive even if killed in Origins.  His appearance in DA2, if he was killed in Origins, is a confirmed bug.

[Silfren]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

As far as the world of Thedas is concerned. The existence of The Maker shouldn't really be the question. Its apparent enough that spirits do exist. You need to take into account Chantry Lore, secular Historical accounts (codexes found at random locations), the experiences of your party members such as Wynne and Leiliana, encounters with benevolent spirits, demons and darkspawn to help course your belief in accordance with either Chantry or Tevinter historical accounts.Personally, i believe in the Chantry because their understanding of The Maker falls with my own spiritual views.

The existence of spirits has nothing whatsoever to do with that of the Maker; the former's existence is not at all proof of the latter.

[wowpwnslol]

About as real as the God in real life. So to answer your question, no, the Maker isn't real.

[Silfren]

KristoffMcguffinSmuck wrote...

I know this is a fantasy based game (a dark fantasy game at that), but I have somewhat of a feeling that throughout my 100+ hours of gaming of dragon age origins and Dragon age 2 (and all its DLC's) that the 'chantrys' god may not even exist, I understand the story between Andraste and her 'meeting and speaking to the maker' and such but I feel the maker or god if you wish does not exist in this game,well maybe sort of.

--Let me explain with a fine example of our own faiths and religion (please note these are my opinions, and I dont mean to offend peoples beleifs or faiths whatsoever), As we all know there are 4 main religious groups in our society these are christianity, Juedaism, Muslamic faith and Catholic, but the list could go on. My point is all these faith have a monotheistic, view in such that there is only one god, just like the chantry's one maker, and like these faiths in our society are all taught and preached there is one god, etc etc, just like the chantry again,

But a few thousand years back, people and society had a Polytheistic view, in were there were/are many gods, like the ancient greeks with Odin and Zeus to name a few,  and maybe this was true in the law of dragon age (havent digged that far through the codex), but if this was true, then maybe the 'Maker' in game is actually not the 'god people are lead to presume' let me explain:

Say christians preach that their god is all loving and all forgiving, this leads to people questioning then why would their god let people die of starvation, and earthquakes etc etc, --and people coming to the conclusion that there couldnt possible be a god, purely because of the monotheistic view, but what IF, the polytheistic view on gods is actually true, and that christians arent worshipping/folowing the one and only god they are lead to presume, but just one 'of' many gods, and the same for Muslims and catholics, then maybe the same could be said about the chantry

For instance the fade, is a world were spirits inhabit and such, what if Andraste actually was in the presence of a god, but just one, when there are many other gods, but that one god told her to preach that its the only one and true god etc, Im trying to imply that in the law of dragon age, there must be many gods and not just one. I have come to the conclusion that the maker may not even exist at all, or may once have, but people have lost contact with that god etc, I dont really know where Im trying to go with this as Im loosing, and distracting myself on severall topics but I just thought I'd share whats going on in my head, or that Andraste just had a dream like Leliana, I dont know faith and religion are very confusing in society and in this game

I can't help myself, but two comments from this OP made me facepalm so badly I just have to take a second to nitpick.
  Christianity and Catholicism are NOT separate religions, for starters.  Catholicism is one of many Christian traditions.  Categorizing it as separate from Christianity is as silly as it is incorrect.  And Odin is a Norse God, not a Greek one.  Sheesh.  

[Silfren]

KristoffMcguffinSmuck wrote...

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

Your post is very confusing. Polytheism does not disproves the existence of God. The One God of Judaic Christian tradition. Make that very clear in your head first.

Im not saying Polythesim disproves that their is a god, im not suggesting anything, but if anything the only thing polythesim would prove is that there is more than one god

Achem.  Acting, practicing polytheist sitting right here.  *waves hand wildly*

Polytheism is the BELIEF in multiple deities.  It isn't PROOF, or DISPROOF, of anything.  Sheesh.

Also, I gotta say, the above comment, suggesting that the OP hypothesized that the Maker could be "many gods" and that the people of Thedas are worshipping just one face of that god?  Um, no, the OP didn't say that, but rather hypothesized that the Maker could be one AMONG many gods, and that the people of Thedas are worshipping this one among many AS IF he is only one.  

Significant difference in meaning there.  

[Eternal Phoenix]

wowpwnslol wrote...

About as real as the God in real life. So to answer your question, no, the Maker isn't real.

Because you said it?

I say the opposite.

Therefore it must be true and since I'm the last person to say it I win by default.

[wowpwnslol]

Elton John is dead wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

About as real as the God in real life. So to answer your question, no, the Maker isn't real.

Because you said it?

I say the opposite.

Therefore it must be true and since I'm the last person to say it I win by default.

So you believe in an omnipotent magician who created everything 6000 years ago? Lawl. And to think we're living in 21st century and not medieval Europe. People are as dumb as ever.

Modifié par wowpwnslol, 14 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Bioware is the maker so the maker is real, the maker created the DA world and created everyone in it.

[Eternal Phoenix]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

About as real as the God in real life. So to answer your question, no, the Maker isn't real.

Because you said it?

I say the opposite.

Therefore it must be true and since I'm the last person to say it I win by default.

So you believe in an omnipotent magician who created everything 6000 years ago? Lawl. And to think we're living in 21st century and not medieval Europe. People are as dumb as ever.

So you believe in non-existant matter which didn't exist creating everything? LAWL! LAWL! LAWL!

It's scientifically proven that this is impossible hence why science itself states the universe had a beginning, was created and came from a source:

http://science.natio...iverse-article/ 

Where did I say that I believed the universe and Earth was 6000 years old? Perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself. This is a thread about a fictional character in a fictional universe. I don't get why you atheists jump and force your beliefs down other people's throats every time God is mentioned.

Edit:

Perhaps you can learn a thing or two from that Catholic guy above you. He's not forcing his views down anyone's throat.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 14 avril 2012 - 04:56 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Only bioware knows. Physically I doubt it, as Spiritual/Logical creator and lawmaker of the universe it's likely possible.

[wowpwnslol]

Elton John is dead wrote...

So you believe in non-existant matter which didn't exist creating everything? LAWL! LAWL! LAWL!

Actually I do not believe in such thing, I honestly don't know how the universe was concieved, but I believe there to be a rational and scientific explanation - the science of today is simply not advanced enough to explain it, which gives a lot of religious fanatics, who have their nonsense explanation of universe's origins from a book of fiction, plenty of ammunition to use against the scientific community.

Trust, me everything will be explained in time and religion will go from irrelevant to non existent. Just like science proved phenomena like lightning and fire isn't work of some mystical wizard centuries ago, everything else we don't understand about universe and our origins will be explained in time. Science needs time.

[brushyourteeth]

There IS a Maker.

... His name is David Gaider.

[Eternal Phoenix]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

So you believe in non-existant matter which didn't exist creating everything? LAWL! LAWL! LAWL!

Actually I do not believe in such thing, I honestly don't know how the universe was concieved, but I believe there to be a rational and scientific explanation - the science of today is simply not advanced enough to explain it, which gives a lot of religious fanatics, who have their nonsense explanation of universe's origins from a book of fiction, plenty of ammunition to use against the scientific community.

Trust, me everything will be explained in time and religion will go from irrelevant to non existent. Just like science proved phenomena like lightning and fire isn't work of some mystical wizard centuries ago, everything else we don't understand about universe and our origins will be explained in time. Science needs time.

Who said God isn't rational? It's rational to assume your computer was the work of a creator just as it's rational to assume The Last Supper painting was the word of an artist. What makes The Last Supper painting different from the Andromeda galaxy? Both show beauty and even design. Trust in science alone and you won't get far in your search for answers. Trust in science and logic and you'd have your answers.

Coincidences on huge scales don't happen. Your atheism requires as much faith as the layman places into religion because you believe in coincidences. You believe DNA is a coincidence despite it being structured the same in ALL creations with the same chemicals and having a perfect code sequence. Despite having a similar structure in all creatures DNA is unique in every individual and each individual (be it a worm or a whale) has a unique genetic blueprint. Logic to me says a mind was behind that.

You believe stars which are composed of the same chemicals all around the universe are coincidences. When a supernova happens the result is that the star dies but new elements are produced which give birth to more stars creating the never-ending cycle of rebirth but you believe that's coincidence. 

Stars contain bigger gravational pull than planets. Is it coincidence that the planets revolve around the only thing that has the needed elements for life? Is it coicidence that plants and trees work in harmony with our sun producing oxygen? The universe works too much like a machine to be accidental and DNA is too complex (more so than a computer code according to Bill Gates) to be the work of nothingness.

Science isn't just about evolution you know...

Conclusion:

It's irrational to believe the universe was the work of nothing and yes you do believe that which is why you deny God. Therefore you deny the theory that a mind was behind the universe and thus you believe the universe and all contained within are nothing but random accidents and products of a coincidence which as proven above just can't be possible. Accidents don't lead to things showing perfection, design and thought. It's more logical to believe a mind was behind the universe. I don't need science to tell me that since common sense itself tells me that.

Alas you've made your mind up and you clearly won't be open-minded about the origin of the universe. I see no point in continuing this debate and derailing this topic. Good day.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 14 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[brushyourteeth]

^ Nice one, E.J.!

[Dragoonlordz]

Elton John is dead wrote...

-snip-

Screenie, or it didn't happen. You know the rules.

[GarethJShep]

uhhhhhh, no its a game LOL XD

[Little Queen]

FUS ROH DAH FTW wrote...

I've seen the maker IRL i promise !

^ who didnt? :innocent: