146 réponses à ce sujet

[Reever]

Surely, I cared. But I was pretty disappointed by the explanation, to be honest...

[stevefox1200]

I never cared

I thought they were less of characters and more of a force of nature

They were so "alien" that it was fine for them to not have a reason or just stick with "you wouldn't understand"

[Denethar]

Nope.

Never cared why Sauron did the **** he did, never cared why Palpatine did it, never cared why Voldemort did it, and really don't care why Repears did anything either. The great thing about powerful, creepy, evil antagonists is that they don't really need to be complex. It's enough to know that they do bad things and need to be stopped. What the stories I mentioned and ME had in common was that it was never really about good vs evil, it was about the road towards defeating evil and how it affected those you cared about in the books/movies.

[TyDurden13]

I personally didn't need to know the reason. I also don't really care why the Borg assimilate, why the Predators hunt, why the bugs go to war with humans, or why the dead like braaaaaaains. It's not necessary for a good story, especially since the Reapers weren't much more than plot drivers. They were never actually interesting of themselves.

But even if you disagree and felt we did need an explanation...ME2 gave us a good enough reason: they reaped organics to reproduce, leaving enough alive so they could return milennia later and do it again. Simple, elegant solution with a good twist (because you don't think of reproduction as something machines necessarily do). I don't know why they felt the need to try (and utterly fail) to impress with a last second motive reveal.

[whiteraider]

Reapers === McGuffin, there was (and still isnt) any need to know why, only that they do & Shepard and co. are out to stop them or die trying...

[Ziggeh]

Midwat wrote...
Ah, I haven't had that sort of trust since "The X-Files" ended.

It's essentially the same problem faced by that series and "Lost" - how do you write a "mystery" series when you have no idea if this season is your last, when you have to fill a certain amount of space (20 1-hour episodes a season, 20-30 hours of gameplay) and when you're facing a looming deadline?

Lost is a bit of a special case, because while a lot of it was raising questions, I'm not sure those questions were ever really the point. This might be just my bull**** rationalisation mind, but I was always more interested in who they were. It was character driven and that let it get away with things a more direct plot wouldn't have.

Midwat wrote...

Basically, getting multiple people to hint at something in just the right amount through about 10 books' worth of material is a (pretty much) impossible task.

I'm not sure, while there's a lot of ancillary story, and it's presence guides much of this, the actual Reaper plotline is told almost entirely over the course of four or five scenes. And I don't think direct hints would have been needed if the motivation had tied into the games themes, so the detail could have been a suprise while it felt entirely fitting. If their gig had been imposing unity through conformity in opposition to Shepard's drive towards cooperation, for example.

[LegendaryBlade]

I think their motivation should of been left as a mystery, personally.

[Chuvvy]

Should've stayed lovecraftian.

[blooregard]

I would have liked them to be the unknowable monsters you never really learn about, would have settled with a "we were the good guys all along" reason (not like what we got) wanted the dark energy reason.

[Apathy1989]

 We've been told we cannot comprehend it, so making it possible to comprehend was just going to make Bioware writers look stupid.


Also scary godlike enemies are best left unexplained. See HP Lovecraft as an example.

[Midwat]

Ziggeh wrote...
I'm not sure, while there's a lot of ancillary story, and it's presence guides much of this, the actual Reaper plotline is told almost entirely over the course of four or five scenes. And I don't think direct hints would have been needed if the motivation had tied into the games themes, so the detail could have been a suprise while it felt entirely fitting. If their gig had been imposing unity through conformity in opposition to Shepard's drive towards cooperation, for example.

That's the problem with Reaper motivation - it had to be shocking, yet expected. It had to be amazing, yet fit the actions of the Reapers so far. It had to not only reference a theme we've seen before, but be consistent with the way that theme's been developed.

The current ending, for example, does tie into a theme of the games - i.e., the tension between the created and the creator. It, however, runs contrary to all the story developments of that theme - the geth and quarians (possibly) making peace, EDI working with the crew, etc. 

Your example - imposing conformity - is more of a method than a reason. Even then, we run into an issue based on how we played the game. I doubt renegade Shepard would have much of a problem imposing conformity to reach a certain objective. So, would such a Shepard agree with the Reapers after all? Problematic.

I would've been floored had Bioware been able to pull a plausible, satisfying Reaper motivation off. I would have been more than happy, though, to accept an ending that focused more on the results of Shepard's actions and how his buddies ended up.

Unfortunately, the current ending satisfies neither criteria.

[my Aim is True]

I wanted to know. Would have been ok with not knowing if the ending was satisfying

[Lord Stark]

Yes, I'd also like to have known the first race that created them. Why the hell is the master of the Citadel taking human form when humans have only existed for 50,000 years vs. 1,000,000,000+ years

[Xannerz]

I didn't care enough to find out. I liked the idea of them executing their actions due to reasons being beyond our understanding. It made them more enigmatic and threatening.

[Riion]

I wouldn't have minded knowing if it was presented in a effective manner. But otherwise, prefer not knowing at all.

[Ziggeh]

Midwat wrote...

Your example - imposing conformity - is more of a method than a reason. Even then, we run into an issue based on how we played the game. I doubt renegade Shepard would have much of a problem imposing conformity to reach a certain objective. So, would such a Shepard agree with the Reapers after all? Problematic.

Very true. Worse examples sprang to mind, but that one fit an interesting theory I read about imposing galactic perfection.

Though I suppose the moral position it puts you in should ultimately have boiled down to renegade versus paragon. Perhaps a bit of a softball for the final quandry, but it would have been neatly poetic.

Edit: My list of requirements grows longer.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 11 avril 2012 - 11:24 .

[Kushan101]

I didn't want to know why the reapers reaped. I didn't need to know either. If there was one thing that should have been left to "speculation" - it was the reapers purpose

[Pathero]

For me I think not knowing is better. It's like in old horror films where they never showed the kill but left your mind to fill in the blanks.
to be honest I'm happ y with the 'grass grows, bird sing, and buddy, I reap peoples.' explanation. The reason why is not even on my radar.

[tanisha__unknown]

Well, I was curious, but could have lived without an explanation

[NPH11]

Honestly, not really. I was told that I couldn't comprehend their reasoning. It was an interesting approach to the Reapers as a villain.

[The_Other_M]

I did.
But the reason they gave and the way it was delivered was terrible.

The whole "Destroying the World/Civilization/Galaxy/Universe" thing is hardly an original concept. It has been done to death by comic books, novels, movies, cartoons, anime, & video games since forever.

The reasons always run the gamut from "Population Control" to "Becoming God" to simply "Leaving a mark in history." It just that BioWare went with the ole "Doing it for the greater good" reason.

HOWEVER, the "Synthetics killing people, so people won't be killed by Synthetics", completely undermines that idea. If it was being delivered by anybody else, say for instance a fellow organic or an ancient cyborg or the tried-and-true "Evil Council-that have watched over civilization since the beginning" shtick would have been 100000x better than what they gave us in the last 15min of ME3.

Besides, if you don't have a clearly defined reason for the Reapers (or any antagonist) to do what they do, they'll just be a your below average, 1-dimensional, cartoon villain. And being "Evil for the sake of being Evil" is a ****y reason for doing anything.

Modifié par The_Other_M, 11 avril 2012 - 11:51 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 I just need to know one thing... where they are.

Seriously. I mean, even if they had what might be a "good reason" for it, why would I think, "oh sorry for interfering with you harvesting my entire species. Why don't you go right ahead. We'll stop firing. Just do your jobs and off with you." Not happening. You may take us down, but we're taking as many of you suckas down with us as we can.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 11 avril 2012 - 11:36 .

[p__q]

 I think reaper motivation should have been hinted at but left some what vague, we were told it was beyond our comprehension and it would mean speculation for everyone  (please don't kill me).On the other hand the fate of our crew and the ramifications of our decisions were what we needed solid answers on.The ending kind of had things the wrong way round in my opinion.

[Midwat]

Ziggeh wrote...
Very true. Worse examples sprang to mind, but that one fit an interesting theory I read about imposing galactic perfection.

Though I suppose the moral position it puts you in should ultimately have boiled down to renegade versus paragon. Perhaps a bit of a softball for the final quandry, but it would have been neatly poetic.

Edit: My list of requirements grows longer.

I guess what I'm saying is creating an ending that gives the Reapers an "incomprehensible" but meaningful motivation, resolves the themes of the series in a satisfying way, takes into account player choice AND gives us closure on Shepard and our favorite characters would require a bona fide literary genius.

I think Bioware has smart and talented people working for them, but they'd need someone working on another level entirely. Even Lovecraft - from whom Bioware cribbed a bit on the Reapers - relied on the "unknowable" shorthand, because the monster you conjure in your mind is worse than the one pretty much any creator could come up with.

The problem with trying for a Reaper motivation and missing is that we end up with the current scenario - almost everyone's a bit angry. Trying for an emotionally satisfying end is much more likely to result in success.