151 réponses à ce sujet

[Wabajakka]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Second, I dont think that the Reapers would willingly allow Shepard to get so close to being able to "push the button" to destroy them regardless of how confident they were in their ability to indoctrinate him.

Unless they can't hide the choice and can't stop Shepard from doing it....so they appealed to his/her better judgement...with lies and persuasion. I too think there was some truth to the final scene....like if everything Shep was seeing was a sort of painted over reality as he was hearing the Crucible activation controlls.

Totally agree. They wouldn't have been able to get him to believe other options without the one that the crucible was really made to do. Also a good way of making the destroy option look a lot worse than the others, just like TIM and Saren thought.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 12 avril 2012 - 07:46 .

[Liquoid]

People are simply too arrogant to fathom the possibility of having their Shepard being successfully indoctrinated by the Reapers.

[Wabajakka]

Liquoid wrote...

People are simply too arrogant to fathom the possibility of having their Shepard being successfully indoctrinated by the Reapers.

That and this is giving the writers a bit too much credit, which a lot of people just rather be that way and act sour about it.

It's just too easy to connect the dots though. Which is why it seems so intentional. Although, it could've just been a dropped story device they were too lazy to remove the hints throughout. It's hard to take at face value because it is so terrible, although if any theory is true, in any capacity, a whole mess of people will be very happy with the ending and I think the few people that somehow did like it won't care too much, considering they probably didn't pay too much attention.

[Wabajakka]

Second last bump.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 12 avril 2012 - 03:43 .

[Wabajakka]

Last bump.

[Erethrian]

Orange Tee wrote...

somewherenoplace wrote...

I like it. However don't joker's eyes change to green in the synthesis ending? I'm not sure just that it might refute your theory a bit.

I like it and would definitely approve if the clarification dlc expressed this.

This theory doesn't explain everything (like how TIM controls you and makes you shoot Anderson)
but I'd take it

Thanks. I didn't really want to go into a huge amount of details really and pick apart the entirity of the ending. 

As I said though, I believe Harbinger is controlling Shep. Well not his body, but suggesting to Shepard these things like shooting Anderson and TIM. They  can't have two indoc'd agents making it to the crucible. Also, Shepard is never seen to be physically affected by TIM's "control" over them. So I think Shep was fighting it since TIM entered the room, but failed when told to shoot Anderson. (note how he shakes his head oddly after shooting, WTF was that?) Remember though, Anderson could be just as alive as Shep is. A shot to the gut couldn't have just killed him, look how untouched Anderson looked!

Now for Anderson being controlled. I just figured since there were TWO indoc'd angents in the same room this gave the Reapers the ability to directly effect Andersons control over his body, they didn't care for whether he lived or died, his mental decay from qucik indoctrination wasn't an issue.

You see the reason you can die to TIM is because if he wins, the reapers still succeed in the control ending.

As for the synthesis glowing eyes thing, we've seen the Reapers ability to physically change organics looks many times through indoc.

While I've been thinking about this not being just hallucinations (so I agree with most of your points). I have to say that I always thought Anderson and TiM were hallucinations due to Indoctrination.

So, the first I thought was Shep's in the Citadel, but he's alone. He's seeing Anderson and TiM , because they represent the opposite sides of his mind right now.

Then I thought "wait a minute, TiM was in the citadel already". So I think there're two possibilities.

First, maybe TiM was there, and both of you are there, but NOT Anderson. So the reapers are Indoctrinating both of you (even if TiM is already and almost fully indoctrinated).

Second, maybe TiM is in another part of the citadel and it was planned a post-ending thing for him.


Anyway, I prefer to think about the first possibility being true, and here's why. First of all, the reapers have more chances to win. Then:

-First, Shepard can be killed by TiM, an already indoctrinated agent.

-Second, Shep can be indoctrinated easier because of an indoctrinated agent amplifying the signals.

-Third, Anderson represents hope for Shepard, hate for TiM. So both of them feel something about him.

-Fourth, the wound Shepard has when Anderson "dies".



So yeah, being this way I still think the child is the last trial, not an AI but a presence in your mind. Trying to convince you, to indoctrinate you.

BUT, (and it's a big but) we still need to know what really happened. Right now we all are speculating. (What BW wanted, right?) 

Modifié par Erethrian, 13 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[Wabajakka]

Erethrian wrote...

While I've been thinking about this not being just hallucinations (so I agree with most of your points). I have to say that I always thought Anderson and TiM were hallucinations due to Indoctrination.

So, the first I thought was Shep's in the Citadel, but he's alone. He's seeing Anderson and TiM , because they represent the opposite sides of his mind right now.

Then I thought "wait a minute, TiM was in the citadel already". So I think there're two possibilities.

First, maybe TiM was there, and both of you are there, but NOT Anderson. So the reapers are Indoctrinating both of you (even if TiM is already and almost fully indoctrinated).

Second, maybe TiM is in another part of the citadel and it was planned a post-ending thing for him.


Anyway, I prefer to think about the first possibility being true, and here's why. First of all, the reapers have more chances to win. Then:

-First, Shepard can be killed by TiM, an already indoctrinated agent.

-Second, Shep can be indoctrinated easier because of an indoctrinated agent amplifying the signals.

-Third, Anderson represents hope for Shepard, hate for TiM. So both of them feel something about him.

-Fourth, the wound Shepard has when Anderson "dies".



So yeah, being this way I still think the child is the last trial, not an AI but a presence in your mind. Trying to convince you, to indoctrinate you.

BUT, (and it's a big but) we still need to know what really happened. Right now we all are speculating. (What BW wanted, right?) 

Agree with some things here, but I really want to stress one thing. The reapers aren't TRYING to indoc Shepard. I think a HUGE point about indoc (slow indoc in particular) has been overlooked by so many people. To slowly indoctrinate someone like TIM or Saren, they had to make the idea of synthesis and control seem like it was possible and their true ideal, like it was something THEY discovered/believe about the reapers, but throughout the story we learn it cleary isnt and these same ideals are the same as indoc'd agents of previous cycles. ]This is exactly why I think the Starchild is Shepards own projection again, completely made up by Shepard, like in the vent and dreams, because Shepard has to convince himself that control/synthesis is right, not Harbinger himself, that's not the point of slow indoc. Funny enough, the idea has to be his own, it has to be organic. 

Indoc does not just suddenly mean the reapers have control, it means they now have access to how you think and how to "suggest" certain things to the mind, then your mind takes it from there, an further intervention with the mind and the idea seems unnatural/unbelieveable. This is how they remain undecteted in indoc'd minds, it seems like its coming from your own mind... Which is why Saren and TIM never believed they were indoc'd at first, it took some serious convincing. This is something I think even the original IDT overlooks heavily, indoc is not obvious, it's extremely subtle.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 13 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[Erethrian]

Orange Tee wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

...

Agree with some things here, but I really want to stress one thing. The reapers aren't TRYING to indoc Shepard. I think a HUGE point about indoc (slow indoc in particular) has been overlooked by so many people. [color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">To slowly indoctrinate someone like TIM or Saren, they had to make the idea of synthesis and control seem like it was possible and their true ideal, like it was something THEY discovered/believe about the reapers, but throughout the story we learn it cleary isnt and these same ideals are the same as indoc'd agents of previous cycles. ]This is exactly why I think the Starchild is Shepards own projection again, completely made up by Shepard, like in the vent and dreams, because Shepard has to convince himself that control/synthesis is right, not Harbinger himself, that's not the point of slow indoc. Funny enough, the idea has to be his own, it has to be [/color]organic. 

Indoc does not just suddenly mean the reapers have control, it means they now have access to how you think and how to "suggest" certain things to the mind, then your mind takes it from there, an further intervention with the mind and the idea seems unnatural. This is how they remain undecteted in indoc'd minds, it seems like its coming from your own mind... Which is why Saren and TIM never believed they were indo'c at first, it took some serious convincing. This is something I think even the original IDT overlooks heavily, indoc is not obvious, it's extremely subtle.

Yeah, I understand that. By trying to indoctrinate him I meant just controlling his mind through suggestions in a more effective way, so the actions of the Ind. agent are the ones of the reapers and at the end Shep. is like TiM or Saren, thinking they're doing the right thing, but in fact fully controlled by the reapers.


Edit: quote


Edit 2: Btw, I love the description given in the books when Grayson is trying to resist Reapers' suggestions. He feels a terrible pain and he finds out that he feels very well when he's doing what the reapers want.

Modifié par Erethrian, 13 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[Wabajakka]

Erethrian wrote...
Yeah, I understand that. By trying to indoctrinate him I meant just controlling his mind through suggestions in a more effective way, so the actions of the Ind. agent are the ones of the reapers and at the end Shep. is like TiM or Saren, thinking they're doing the right thing, but in fact fully controlled by the reapers.


Edit: quote


Edit 2: Btw, I love the description given in the books when Grayson is trying to resist Reapers' suggestions. He feels a terrible pain and he finds out that he feels very well when he's doing what the reapers want.

 
Exactly, it's very clear Shepard is having some sort of inner conflict during the TIM and Anderson scene. He shows pain in his head as we hear Reaper growls throughout and gives the most awkward head shake after shooting Anderson, as if he hadn't completely realised what he'd done or if he was shaking something off after he'd done that. I think it's more than clear that we're missing a part of the story, I just hope they don't plan on making a whole nother game around it and this Extended Cut DLC explains it, ME3 was supposed to be the end.

[Erethrian]

Orange Tee wrote...

Erethrian wrote...
...

 
Exactly, it's very clear Shepard is having some sort of inner conflict during the TIM and Anderson scene. He shows pain in his head as we hear Reaper growls throughout and gives the most awkward head shake after shooting Anderson, as if he hadn't completely realised what he'd done or if he was shaking something off after he'd done that. I think it's more than clear that we're missing a part of the story, I just hope they don't plan on making a whole nother game around it and this Extended Cut DLC explains it, ME3 was supposed to be the end.

I hope that too. The DLC should explain this, or if at the end it's not some sort of indoctrination (which I think it's unlikely). It's also a long wait until Summer. I even thought about some kind of Expansion Pack coming, but well, if the Extended Cut is what we'll have, I hope it's well done and explained and not just open to interpretations.

[Darth_Trethon]

Erethrian wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

Erethrian wrote...
...

 
Exactly, it's very clear Shepard is having some sort of inner conflict during the TIM and Anderson scene. He shows pain in his head as we hear Reaper growls throughout and gives the most awkward head shake after shooting Anderson, as if he hadn't completely realised what he'd done or if he was shaking something off after he'd done that. I think it's more than clear that we're missing a part of the story, I just hope they don't plan on making a whole nother game around it and this Extended Cut DLC explains it, ME3 was supposed to be the end.

I hope that too. The DLC should explain this, or if at the end it's not some sort of indoctrination (which I think it's unlikely). It's also a long wait until Summer. I even thought about some kind of Expansion Pack coming, but well, if the Extended Cut is what we'll have, I hope it's well done and explained and not just open to interpretations.

If they don't make the ending right in this DLC there won't be a next Mass Effect.....despites high sales EA really took a black eye from the ME3 ending and that should be more than clear that a next ME won't sell a fraction of what ME3 sold if they don't fix this for good.

[III Achilles II]

I'll throw down some of my thoughts.

1. It's a dream- I'll believe this until Bioware tells me FLAT OUT that it's not. The moment you wake up the screen looks EXACTLY like the dream sequences with the ghosts around the lift. You hear people saying no one made it to the lift. Shepard then goes into the lift and passes out?? Much like a dream you appear in one place, but aren't quite sure how you got there. The CITADEL IS INSANE. IT looks like the Collector Base, Shadow Broker's Ship, there are body parts that look like old fallen comrades suits.

2. TIM and Anderson- I enjoyed your point about them being the opposite sides of his head. MY FAVORITE interpretation of this ending is that Shepard's will is represented of Anderson. There is a great video to link you to a fantastic analysis of the ending.



3. Javik's comments- This points to the fact that Reapers want LESS RESISTANCE by the populations. A "high ranking" official like Shepard would be a PERFECT indoctrinated agent.

4. Vega's comment- Do you hear that hum? You get that BEFORE YOU GO TO TIM BASE.

5. TIM is not how he really looks- TIM is shown in is office after IMPLANTING REAPER TECH without the facial weirdness. It's weird that all of the sudden he looks different. Also, TIM just appears out of NOWHERE when there is only one path to the room.

6. HINTS- If you look at the entire series, it all points to Indoctrination by Reapers. Codex, Characters, Harbinger's comments, etc. It seems too crazy that those just "happen" to be in the game.

7. Business angle- Online pass allows the free DLC to act as an incentive for people to buy new games. Single player games get hurt the most by the used game markets.

8. Bioware is crazy- Yes I said it. They killed off their main character in the beginning of their second game. They want this game to be EPIC like Star Wars. They have movies coming out. They want to create buzz and speculation.

9. The scene where Shepard wakes up- Proves one of two things, either Truth DLC is coming or they are waiting to announce ME4. Regardless of what Bioware said, Microsoft did it with MC. There is no reason for Bioware not to do the same thing. How many fans are clamoring for KOTOR 3 and here Bioware has their golden ticket in hand. It's their Link, Samus, Mario, Nate, Snake, MC, etc.

10. Starchild is all in Shepard's head- He talks with Male/Female Shepard's voices, appears as the child we couldn't "save", and refers to the Reapers as Reapers. Reapers is an ORGANIC TERM. No Reaper refers to themselves as that. They call themselves "we" like the Geth. Starchild is just an illusion pulled from Shepard's mind.

11. Arrival- The Reapers did not KILL Shepard when he was knocked out on the station. Why? They want to indoctrinate him. He was around that thing for 2 DAYS! There has to be some affect especially since he has synthetic implants inside his body.


I'm just saying that I firmly believe that this is what Bioware intended. They thought that more fans would understand the ending and not turn around and call them BAD WRITERS. If they do come out and announce that it isn't real then fine by me, but Jessica Merizan has a playthrough dedicated to Indoc. Bioware has had multiple chances to come out and deny it and they haven't. The most recent twitter feeds from Jessica state that she is extremely excited about some new stuff she saw and knows fans will be "extremely excited" when they find out. She replied to someone that it's not about the Extended Cut, but something much more exciting.

Sound like the Truth DLC, but I guess time will make me an honest man or a liar.

[DJBare]

Some people should read Retribution, I agree with the OP, there is indoctrination taking place, but it's not some dream state, the victim(in this case Shepard) is very aware, indoc is insidious and works better as suggestions, despite Grayson knowing he was indoctrinated, he could not seperate the suggestions of the reapers from his own thoughts, therefore Grayson would consider them his own suggestions.

[Wabajakka]

DJBare wrote...

Some people should read Retribution, I agree with the OP, there is indoctrination taking place, but it's not some dream state, the victim(in this case Shepard) is very aware, indoc is insidious and works better as suggestions, despite Grayson knowing he was indoctrinated, he could not seperate the suggestions of the reapers from his own thoughts, therefore Grayson would consider them his own suggestions.

Glad you agree.

And Vegas comment of the humming I think can't really be proven important. It was just some random dialogue, I don't think there's enough proof of the entire Normandy crew being indoc'd, if more characters had mentioned it, then they could be on to something.

Edit: Another thing to note, that leaked DLC rumour 'The Truth' hasn't come out all as one, but every piece of that rumour has been true so far. It's uncanny that someone just guessed every single MP character that was being released in the resurgance DLC, so that rumour still holds a lot of weight. I still expect DLC that takes place post-ending. Plus it also mentions Prothean MP characters, which I still believe is going to happen along with a SP DLC that gets you Prothean soldier war assets. Something to take into consideration.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 13 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[Wabajakka]

Made some changes to my main post.

Surprised more people aren't interested in discussing this version of the theory, it's probably much more likely to happen and be explained in Extended Cut if there is any indoc involved at all.

[D.Sharrah]

I like this...very much reminds me of Dumbeldore telling Harry that "yes it is happening in your head, but why does it mean that it isn't real?"

[DreamTension]

Orange Tee wrote...

Made some changes to my main post.

Surprised more people aren't interested in discussing this version of the theory, it's probably much more likely to happen and be explained in Extended Cut if there is any indoc involved at all.

The 'original' Indoctrination Theory is not a dream...the whole point of it is that it's the Reapers final grasp of indoctrinating/controlling shepard's mind.
From what I can tell, the only difference is that you are saying Shepard is actually on the Citadel while IDT is saying it's in his head.   I get the difference and the significance of the difference.

Also, the 'confirmation' that Shepard is on the Citadel at the end is a tweet from Jessica who (unfortunately) has become very bad source of information.  I like her and all, but she has contradicted herself a few times and she has been known to be very vague and misleading.

[Wabajakka]

DreamTension wrote...

The 'original' Indoctrination Theory is not a dream...the whole point of it is that it's the Reapers final grasp of indoctrinating/controlling shepard's mind.
From what I can tell, the only difference is that you are saying Shepard is actually on the Citadel while IDT is saying it's in his head.   I get the difference and the significance of the difference.

Also, the 'confirmation' that Shepard is on the Citadel at the end is a tweet from Jessica who (unfortunately) has become very bad source of information.  I like her and all, but she has contradicted herself a few times and she has been known to be very vague and misleading.

Well, the original really does say that it was a dream/in his head and that none of what we saw at the end actually happened, which is hard to believe now considering they said they aren't changing the ending and the original IDT requires exactly that, because with original IDT the end hasn't occured yet.

And when it comes to that Jessica girl on Twitter, I dunno, I think she's pretty trustworthy considering that's one of the biggest truths about the ending we've gotten from anyone at BW, the truth about EDI not being a bug being the second one.

[balance5050]

Orange Tee wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

The 'original' Indoctrination Theory is not a dream...the whole point of it is that it's the Reapers final grasp of indoctrinating/controlling shepard's mind.
From what I can tell, the only difference is that you are saying Shepard is actually on the Citadel while IDT is saying it's in his head.   I get the difference and the significance of the difference.

Also, the 'confirmation' that Shepard is on the Citadel at the end is a tweet from Jessica who (unfortunately) has become very bad source of information.  I like her and all, but she has contradicted herself a few times and she has been known to be very vague and misleading.

Well, the original really does say that it was a dream/in his head and that none of what we saw at the end actually happened, which is hard to believe now considering they said they aren't changing the ending and the original IDT requires exactly that, because with original IDT the end hasn't occured yet.

And when it comes to that Jessica girl on Twitter, I dunno, I think she's pretty trustworthy considering that's one of the biggest truths about the ending we've gotten from anyone at BW, the truth about EDI not being a bug being the second one.

Jessica has said numerous time that what she says is opinion, not fact. Do we really need to go back to how there is no concrete on the citadel?

[Wabajakka]

balance5050 wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

The 'original' Indoctrination Theory is not a dream...the whole point of it is that it's the Reapers final grasp of indoctrinating/controlling shepard's mind.
From what I can tell, the only difference is that you are saying Shepard is actually on the Citadel while IDT is saying it's in his head.   I get the difference and the significance of the difference.

Also, the 'confirmation' that Shepard is on the Citadel at the end is a tweet from Jessica who (unfortunately) has become very bad source of information.  I like her and all, but she has contradicted herself a few times and she has been known to be very vague and misleading.

Well, the original really does say that it was a dream/in his head and that none of what we saw at the end actually happened, which is hard to believe now considering they said they aren't changing the ending and the original IDT requires exactly that, because with original IDT the end hasn't occured yet.

And when it comes to that Jessica girl on Twitter, I dunno, I think she's pretty trustworthy considering that's one of the biggest truths about the ending we've gotten from anyone at BW, the truth about EDI not being a bug being the second one.

Jessica has said numerous time that what she says is opinion, not fact. Do we really need to go back to how there is no concrete on the citadel?

Ok, fair enough then. It just seemed like what she's said about the Citadel seemed to be fact and that it should've been obvious. More speculation then lol... Although at a second glance you can infact see some metallic looking parts in that rubble, so maybe he's on the Citadel, but the Citadel crashed into Earth? Who knows.

[dragondragon]

I like this idea and it's more or less, how I would like to interpret it. I always thought the indoctrination theory had some good points, but I disagreed with those whoe thought there was going to be a new ending after Shepard wakes up. This theory says the ending is what you see, and that's what Bioware has been saying.

[Wabajakka]

dragondragon wrote...

I like this idea and it's more or less, how I would like to interpret it. I always thought the indoctrination theory had some good points, but I disagreed with those whoe thought there was going to be a new ending after Shepard wakes up. This theory says the ending is what you see, and that's what Bioware has been saying.

Thanks. Don't forget though that there could very well be more content incoming that could take place post-ending very much like Arrival (accept much larger scale, think a final battle vs Harby and some others that escaped the blast) and I think with this Extended Cut DLC we could very well see them set that up. 

[FBI-Azzurri]

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is that there is no possible way Shepard would be able to surivive that blast from the citadel when we clearly see the whole thing blow up. I highly doubt Shepard's wounded body would be able to fall back down to London with the rubble from the Citadel and surrounding buildings all falling on top of him. How would anyone be able to take a breath from that? And, there is no way that final scene where we see Shepard alive is taking place from Space where Shepard is still on the citadel, well because there is no more Citadel. The Shepard is Alive scene is clearly taking place in London and according to the original IT, Shepard never made it to the beam, which explains why he would still be alive and be surrounded by rubble in London from Harbinger's blast. I fear the explanation to how Shepard is possibly still alive according to your idea would be quite hard to explain, if you can even explain it to begin with. But i Would have no problem if your idea is right, which it probably is because it makes sense with how BioWare has been acting lately and what they have been saying. It gives us a complete game as promised, but I just think the explanation to how Shepard is still alive would be very difficult to try to explain, if he just blew up the Citadel.

Also, why is Shepard bleeding in the exact same spot as Anderson was shot in? Remember Shepard was shot by Marauder Shields in the shoulder not his lower right side. And that blood is fresh and the camera makes a point to show you a gun wound in Shepard's lower right side right after Anderson dies meaning your willpower has been weakened by the Indoctrination. I like your idea because it gives us a complete product, but I still think the original IT makes more sense.

Modifié par FBI-Azzurri, 16 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[Wabajakka]

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is how would Shepard be able to live at the end of the red ending when we can clearly see that the Citadel has been completely destroyed by the Space Magic explosion? There is no way anyone would survive the blast and that scene looks like Earth and Shepard seems to be surrounded by rubble from buildings in London.

Also, why is Shepard bleeding in the exact same spot as Anderson was shot in? Remember Shepard was shot by Marauder Shields in the shoulder not his lower right side. And that blood is fresh and the camera makes a point to show you a gun wound in Shepard's lower right side right after Anderson dies meaning your willpower has been weakened by the Indoctrination. I like your idea because it gives us a complete product, but I still think the original IT makes more sense.

Ya where Shepard is exactly is speculation at this point, but it would make sense if he was still on the Citadel during the blast because that would defintely increase his chances of survival, BW confirmed that many people survived the Citadel exploding because of the security measures used to protect the cities on it. You can also clearly see some matallic parts in the rubble with him plus the Citadel could've easily crashed into Earth. Aparrently this will also be shown in the Extended Cut, that people had survived the blast and not to expect 100% casualties.

Your second point is extremely true though. There really isn't much explaining why Shepard is suddenly bleeding from the same spot he shot Anderson. Anderson is just a really odd piece during that entire scene, it's hard to say what was really going on with him.

[MikeNail]

I think your theory is full of holes, original IT is completely thought through and everything in it fits.

Why there are shrubs and trees around when you wake up?

Crew members would never leave Shepard. Much more unlikely, that they (especially LI) would get off the Normandy smiling like idiots.

It is clear that Shepard's waking on earth in the last sequence, I agree there is no f***ing concrete on the Citadel. You can even see the beam in the background lightening the ground.

And what about Shepard bleeding from the spot where he shot Anderson?? This can't be real, think of it.

This can't match IT in any side of view.