151 réponses à ce sujet

[my Aim is True]

Banelash wrote...

there is one part of Bioware's dissmisal of this IDT that I don't get. Can they explain that boy at the start on earth? Walking into a room and getting blasted by a reaper, than found in a vent, and when shepard turned, he is gone

There are about a dozen different things that Bioware can't explain.  That's the least offensive plot hole of them all

[Wabajakka]

MikeNail wrote...

I think your theory is full of holes, original IT is completely thought through and everything in it fits.

Why there are shrubs and trees around when you wake up?

Crew members would never leave Shepard. Much more unlikely, that they (especially LI) would get off the Normandy smiling like idiots.

It is clear that Shepard's waking on earth in the last sequence, I agree there is no f***ing concrete on the Citadel. You can even see the beam in the background lightening the ground.

And what about Shepard bleeding from the spot where he shot Anderson?? This can't be real, think of it.

This can't match IT in any side of view.

Well what you've listed other than the Anderson shot wound are probably the weakest points of the IT and are simply plot holes that will be explained in Extended Cut regardless of whether or not Indoctrination is true or not. There are cleary metallic parts in that breath scene, it's really up in the air though and again we'll probably see in Extended Cut. I think you're missing the point though, this is not trying to disprove the original IDT, in fact it's the same thing accept I say it just wasn't a dream and give some evidence on why and what could be happening away from Shepard.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 15 avril 2012 - 10:09 .

[D.Sharrah]

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is that there is no possible way Shepard would be able to surivive that blast from the citadel when we clearly see the whole thing blow up. I highly doubt Shepard's wounded body would be able to fall back down to London with the rubble from the Citadel and surrounding buildings all falling on top of him. How would anyone be able to take a breath from that? And, there is no way that final scene where we see Shepard alive is taking place from Space where Shepard is still on the citadel, well because there is no more Citadel. The Shepard is Alive scene is clearly taking place in London and according to the original IT, Shepard never made it to the beam, which explains why he would still be alive and be surrounded by rubble in London from Harbinger's blast. I fear the explanation to how Shepard is possibly still alive according to your idea would be quite hard to explain, if you can even explain it to begin with. But i Would have no problem if your idea is right, which it probably is because it makes sense with how BioWare has been acting lately and what they have been saying. It gives us a complete game as promised, but I just think the explanation to how Shepard is still alive would be very difficult to try to explain, if he just blew up the Citadel.

Consider this theory in the context that it is not Shepard's body that travels to the Citadel but his mind...that Shepard's consciousness somehow connects with the citadel/catalyst/crucible...what we see is Shepard's intepretation of this virtual connection - and IT comes into play as the Reapers attempt to hack that connection to influence Shepard's decision of how to use the crucible.  So that when you see Shepard "wake up", it is more of a case of the mind reconnnecting with the body then a case of it becoming conscious after some kind of re-entry from space.

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 16 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[Wabajakka]

D.Sharrah wrote...

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is that there is no possible way Shepard would be able to surivive that blast from the citadel when we clearly see the whole thing blow up. I highly doubt Shepard's wounded body would be able to fall back down to London with the rubble from the Citadel and surrounding buildings all falling on top of him. How would anyone be able to take a breath from that? And, there is no way that final scene where we see Shepard alive is taking place from Space where Shepard is still on the citadel, well because there is no more Citadel. The Shepard is Alive scene is clearly taking place in London and according to the original IT, Shepard never made it to the beam, which explains why he would still be alive and be surrounded by rubble in London from Harbinger's blast. I fear the explanation to how Shepard is possibly still alive according to your idea would be quite hard to explain, if you can even explain it to begin with. But i Would have no problem if your idea is right, which it probably is because it makes sense with how BioWare has been acting lately and what they have been saying. It gives us a complete game as promised, but I just think the explanation to how Shepard is still alive would be very difficult to try to explain, if he just blew up the Citadel.

Consider this theory in the context that it is not Shepard's body that travels to the Citadel but his mind...that Shepard's consciousness somehow connects with the citadel/catalyst/crucible...what we see is Shepard's intepretation of this virtual connection - and IT comes into play as the Reapers attempt to hack that connection to influence Shepard's decision of how to use the crucible.  So that when you see Shepard "wake up", it is more of a case of the mind reconnnecting with the body then a case of it becoming conscious after some kind of re-entry from space.

I see where you're coming from with that. But don't get it confused, give this another read, Shepard makes it to the Citadel and everything we see happens. It's basically just the Starkid that doesn't actually exist and he could be hallucinating how the 3 choices actually work as well (The beam, the handles  and the pipe) considering how little sense it makes that blowing up a pipe, holding handles that kill you and jumping into a beam make the Crucible work. What Shepard is actually doing could be as simple as hitting a few things on a control panel in reality, he's not entirely conscious though.

[FBI-Azzurri]

Orange Tee wrote...

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is how would Shepard be able to live at the end of the red ending when we can clearly see that the Citadel has been completely destroyed by the Space Magic explosion? There is no way anyone would survive the blast and that scene looks like Earth and Shepard seems to be surrounded by rubble from buildings in London.

Also, why is Shepard bleeding in the exact same spot as Anderson was shot in? Remember Shepard was shot by Marauder Shields in the shoulder not his lower right side. And that blood is fresh and the camera makes a point to show you a gun wound in Shepard's lower right side right after Anderson dies meaning your willpower has been weakened by the Indoctrination. I like your idea because it gives us a complete product, but I still think the original IT makes more sense.

Ya where Shepard is exactly is speculation at this point, but it would make sense if he was still on the Citadel during the blast because that would defintely increase his chances of survival, BW confirmed that many people survived the Citadel exploding because of the security measures used to protect the cities on it. You can also clearly see some matallic parts in the rubble with him plus the Citadel could've easily crashed into Earth. Aparrently this will also be shown in the Extended Cut, that people had survived the blast and not to expect 100% casualties.

Your second point is extremely true though. There really isn't much explaining why Shepard is suddenly bleeding from the same spot he shot Anderson. Anderson is just a really odd piece during that entire scene, it's hard to say what was really going on with him.

Actually just saw an image showing that the Shepard breath scene is clearly on the Citadel. I guess it wasn't destroyed after all... Clearly that is the rubble from the mechanism you shot at. But yeah don't quite understand the second point I said of why he is bleeding. Found the image here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11435946/1#11436494

Modifié par FBI-Azzurri, 16 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[Wabajakka]

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is how would Shepard be able to live at the end of the red ending when we can clearly see that the Citadel has been completely destroyed by the Space Magic explosion? There is no way anyone would survive the blast and that scene looks like Earth and Shepard seems to be surrounded by rubble from buildings in London.

Also, why is Shepard bleeding in the exact same spot as Anderson was shot in? Remember Shepard was shot by Marauder Shields in the shoulder not his lower right side. And that blood is fresh and the camera makes a point to show you a gun wound in Shepard's lower right side right after Anderson dies meaning your willpower has been weakened by the Indoctrination. I like your idea because it gives us a complete product, but I still think the original IT makes more sense.

Ya where Shepard is exactly is speculation at this point, but it would make sense if he was still on the Citadel during the blast because that would defintely increase his chances of survival, BW confirmed that many people survived the Citadel exploding because of the security measures used to protect the cities on it. You can also clearly see some matallic parts in the rubble with him plus the Citadel could've easily crashed into Earth. Aparrently this will also be shown in the Extended Cut, that people had survived the blast and not to expect 100% casualties.

Your second point is extremely true though. There really isn't much explaining why Shepard is suddenly bleeding from the same spot he shot Anderson. Anderson is just a really odd piece during that entire scene, it's hard to say what was really going on with him.

Actually just saw an image showing that the Shepard breath scene is clearly on the Citadel. I guess it wasn't destroyed after all... Clearly that is the rubble from the mechanism you shot at. But yeah don't quite understand the second point I said of why he is bleeding. Found the image here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11435946/1#11436494

Ya I've seen that. It does give proof to it, but we'll only really know once the Extended Cut comes.

[FBI-Azzurri]

Orange Tee wrote...

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

The only problem I have with your new look on the Indoctrination Theory is how would Shepard be able to live at the end of the red ending when we can clearly see that the Citadel has been completely destroyed by the Space Magic explosion? There is no way anyone would survive the blast and that scene looks like Earth and Shepard seems to be surrounded by rubble from buildings in London.

Also, why is Shepard bleeding in the exact same spot as Anderson was shot in? Remember Shepard was shot by Marauder Shields in the shoulder not his lower right side. And that blood is fresh and the camera makes a point to show you a gun wound in Shepard's lower right side right after Anderson dies meaning your willpower has been weakened by the Indoctrination. I like your idea because it gives us a complete product, but I still think the original IT makes more sense.

Ya where Shepard is exactly is speculation at this point, but it would make sense if he was still on the Citadel during the blast because that would defintely increase his chances of survival, BW confirmed that many people survived the Citadel exploding because of the security measures used to protect the cities on it. You can also clearly see some matallic parts in the rubble with him plus the Citadel could've easily crashed into Earth. Aparrently this will also be shown in the Extended Cut, that people had survived the blast and not to expect 100% casualties.

Your second point is extremely true though. There really isn't much explaining why Shepard is suddenly bleeding from the same spot he shot Anderson. Anderson is just a really odd piece during that entire scene, it's hard to say what was really going on with him.

Actually just saw an image showing that the Shepard breath scene is clearly on the Citadel. I guess it wasn't destroyed after all... Clearly that is the rubble from the mechanism you shot at. But yeah don't quite understand the second point I said of why he is bleeding. Found the image here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11435946/1#11436494

Ya I've seen that. It does give proof to it, but we'll only really know once the Extended Cut comes.

I still think your look on the theory is what they'll go with though. With how BioWare has been acting and saying, it makes the most sense. We'll wait and see for the EC. But, I still think nothing happens after Shepard is in the rubble because it was put there for the chance to make Mass Effect 4 with Shepard. Regardless of what BioWare has said, I highly doubt Mass Effect 3 is the end of Shepard especially with EA in charge.

[Wabajakka]

FBI-Azzurri wrote...

I still think your look on the theory is what they'll go with though. With how BioWare has been acting and saying, it makes the most sense. We'll wait and see for the EC. But, I still think nothing happens after Shepard is in the rubble because it was put there for the chance to make Mass Effect 4 with Shepard. Regardless of what BioWare has said, I highly doubt Mass Effect 3 is the end of Shepard especially with EA in charge.

Thanks. Glad to hear you agree. 

I agree as well on your point. I really don't think they're going to be able to just end Mass Effect like this. We are either going to see a post-ending expansion OR Mass Effect 4.

Other than that, Mass Effect as as series will just be games that take place before Shepards story. I could definitely see them even letting us play in an entirely different cycle, like the Protheans, do a Halo:Reach prequel kind of thing, where we know how it's going to end we just get to see how it ends. (Reapers win) I think that'd be cool though, it'd give us a lot more details on the Prothean cycle,  how they tried to prepare the next cycle for the Reapers and see what the Universe was like before the current one.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 16 avril 2012 - 08:20 .

[YouHaveAProblem]

 If there's anything I agree with IT on, it's the part about Gilligan's Planet not being real, aka in Shepard's dream. That's pretty much him thinking how nice everything went, that the choice he made was the right one, and that the people he cared about are all happy and alive, and gathered somewhere nice and exotic. (Regardless of what situation they were in before you "activated the crucible", or the fact that they should be pretty upset about Shepard's (apparent) death)

[Wabajakka]

YouHaveAProblem wrote...

 If there's anything I agree with IT on, it's the part about Gilligan's Planet not being real, aka in Shepard's dream. That's pretty much him thinking how nice everything went, that the choice he made was the right one, and that the people he cared about are all happy and alive, and gathered somewhere nice and exotic. (Regardless of what situation they were in before you "activated the crucible", or the fact that they should be pretty upset about Shepard's (apparent) death)

Ya, I have to admit, they're going to have a difficult time explaining why ANY of them are happy at all to be trapped on a random deserted planet in Extended Cut. That's something I can definitely say I  may not be able to explain through my theory and the only real way to make sense of that is to say it didn't happen like the original IDT states.

I mean we really don't know their story when they tried to escape, but as far as we know, they don't even know that the Reapers have been destroyed, controlled or that they've been apperently turned part machine...

Any ideas? I'll try to think of a way to explain it myself and add it, that's a tough one though.

[YouHaveAProblem]

Guess it could still be in Shepards head, even if we roll with your theory?! If you chose control or Synthesis, that could be h** last, happy thoughts. (Or something the Reapers show Shep to make h** think (s)he is doing the right thing.

If you chose destroy, that is like h** dream or something, while lying in the rubble. (in space or after surviving atmospheric re-entry..!!!)

Modifié par YouHaveAProblem, 17 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[MikeNail]

It is obvious, that IT is still the most likely explanation. Even if they planned it like Orange Tee says, it would mean that it was very horribly written. That is the reason why they wouldn't admit it even if it used to be true.

The possibilities are that they will use original IT and expand on it, because that would make all of us happy because nothing of this crazy s*** happened, or they will come with even more clever explanation to exceed their fans imagination and surprise them.

Either way at the end everything after Harbinger beam will be either dream or reality very blurred by hallucinations. But I still strongly believe the former one, because the latter would look like they are trying to mask their mistakes. Also, if the IT was right it would make their writers plot gods in eyes of most players. And as far as I know, they are not such stupid to screw it that way.

Sources I've read suggest that this was an improvised ending because the original was leaked. This would be absolutelly best way how to end the game to buy some time to make the real ending. They may have been hurried, but I doubt they would panicked so hard to loose their intelligence and creativity.

Modifié par MikeNail, 17 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[Wabajakka]

MikeNail wrote...

It is obvious, that IT is still the most likely explanation. Even if they planned it like Orange Tee says, it would mean that it was very horribly written. That is the reason why they wouldn't admit it even if it used to be true.

The possibilities are that they will use original IT and expand on it, because that would make all of us happy because nothing of this crazy s*** happened, or they will come with even more clever explanation to exceed their fans imagination and surprise them.

Either way at the end everything after Harbinger beam will be either dream or reality very blurred by hallucinations. But I still strongly believe the former one, because the latter would look like they are trying to mask their mistakes. Also, if the IT was right it would make their writers plot gods in eyes of most players. And as far as I know, they are not such stupid to screw it that way.

Sources I've read suggest that this was an improvised ending because the original was leaked. This would be absolutelly best way how to end the game to buy some time to make the real ending. They may have been hurried, but I doubt they would panicked so hard to loose their intelligence and creativity.

I definitely agree there.

Well if you think about it, the original leaked ending included Harbinger.... So if my alteration of the theory ends up being correct and they DO come with post-ending DLC featuring Harbinger, they could very well use that leaked script although modified a bit so it's not the exact same as the leaked one, but has the same general idea.

Wow, actually, that would work. I gotta take a second look at that script though, I know it had to do with the Reapers trying to stop Dark Energy from consuming the galaxy and Harbinger was the one who'd revealed that to Shepard, so it's very possible that the same could happen in post-ending DLC if I'm right. Hmmm...

Modifié par Orange Tee, 17 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[MikeNail]

Orange Tee wrote...

MikeNail wrote...

It is obvious, that IT is still the most likely explanation. Even if they planned it like Orange Tee says, it would mean that it was very horribly written. That is the reason why they wouldn't admit it even if it used to be true.

The possibilities are that they will use original IT and expand on it, because that would make all of us happy because nothing of this crazy s*** happened, or they will come with even more clever explanation to exceed their fans imagination and surprise them.

Either way at the end everything after Harbinger beam will be either dream or reality very blurred by hallucinations. But I still strongly believe the former one, because the latter would look like they are trying to mask their mistakes. Also, if the IT was right it would make their writers plot gods in eyes of most players. And as far as I know, they are not such stupid to screw it that way.

Sources I've read suggest that this was an improvised ending because the original was leaked. This would be absolutelly best way how to end the game to buy some time to make the real ending. They may have been hurried, but I doubt they would panicked so hard to loose their intelligence and creativity.

I definitely agree there.

Well if you think about it, the original leaked ending included Harbinger.... So if my alteration of the theory ends up being correct and they DO come with post-ending DLC featuring Harbinger, they could very well use that leaked script although modified a bit so it's not the exact same as the leaked one, but has the same general idea.

Wow, actually, that would work. I gotta take a second look at that script though, I know it had to do with the Reapers trying to stop Dark Energy from consuming the galaxy and Harbinger was the one who'd revealed that to Shepard, so it's very possible that the same could happen in post-ending DLC if I'm right. Hmmm...

Could you please point me to the script? I don't like spoilers, but i think they make very different ending, they wouldn't do this all if they don't. I'm just courious how it was supposed to end. Thanks in advance

[MikeNail]

I just found on some forum something about it. It would be very shocking but very exciting and satisfying ending. I don't really understand, why they needed to change the ending:(:(:(. Everybody from people invested in the series would avoid such spoiler like leaked ending, and screw the others, if someone wants to waste their experience from such wonderful game, it their f***ing problem!!! So why the hell they have to change it, it would be awesome!!!:'(

I'm afraid they cannot come with anything better. So let's hope they will use it finally anyway:(. But maybe they surprise me. I hope so, I expect it to be big!!! Come'on, Bioware, give us the ending you got, nobody cares that it leaked!!! Or make sure you are going to give us something at least equally epic.

[Wabajakka]

MikeNail wrote...

Could you please point me to the script? I don't like spoilers, but i think they make very different ending, they wouldn't do this all if they don't. I'm just courious how it was supposed to end. Thanks in advance

I've been looking, I could've sworn there were more details on the original ending before, but all I could find was the general idea of what the original end was going to be, there aren't much details on it but here's something I pulled from a website talking about it:

The Dark Energy was a force that was going to consume everything. According to Karpyshyn, "The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread."

The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

I like this though. It would really open up for some interesting choices though especially if it was modified and it ends up being post-ending DLC featuring Harbinger, in fact Dark Energy could be the central plot point of the DLC, it could be that "final conflict" or "last story" we hear Stargazer (that old man) talk about. Although, the whole "destroying reapers" and "sacrificing humanity" options wouldn't be the choices considering the end we already have.

You figure out Harbinger and a few other Reapers escaped the blast, but they now need your help and finally reveal their true purpose to you and are actually willing to help you (you've proved to them that organics aren't completely incapable) to figure out this Dark Energy problem. That would be crazy and would be an amazing expansion to the game.

[MikeNail]

If they follow at least the main original idea, it will be awesome and I will be shaking a long after I finish it:D. Thanks for the info, my faith in wonderful end grew much bigger.

My only concern is that the things said by Angry Joe about the Extended Cut will come true.

[Wabajakka]

MikeNail wrote...

If they follow at least the main original idea, it will be awesome and I will be shaking a long after I finish it:D. Thanks for the info, my faith in wonderful end grew much bigger.

My only concern is that the things said by Angry Joe about the Extended Cut will come true.

Glad I could help restore some faith. Although, don't get your hopes too high, because we could be giving the writers WAY to much credit with this stuff. I hope not though.

I also agree. I'll be very upset if all we get is more of the bad ending with the Extended Cut and all it does is extend the horribleness that is that ending, but I think it would be hard for them to do anything else but further allude to some form of indoctrination/hallucination being true if not this or the original IDT.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 18 avril 2012 - 03:52 .

[ZackG312]

Good read and very believable.

[Agugaboo]

yeah I always thought the IT was much more believable if there was some reality to the event, that shepherd was essentially sleepwalking, but I do think it began with the beam hit on earth. Shepherd's IT trial was simultaneously her interaction with the crucible as a catalyst.

Also, the reason shepherd blacks out is because she comes within a certain range of the earth conduit.

[Agugaboo]

Agugaboo wrote...

yeah I always thought the IT was much more believable if there was some reality to the event, that shepherd was essentially sleepwalking, but I do think it began with the beam hit on earth. Shepherd's IT trial was simultaneously her interaction with the crucible as a catalyst.

Also, the reason shepherd blacks out is because she comes within a certain range of the earth conduit.

Not because she was hit by Harby beam. Harby stops his laser before it hits her because the catalyst process is already in motion and him actually killing her would have triggered it. Instead Harby is GTFOD for dark space, to continue the fight at a later date, out of range of the relays. Harby pulled the laser away just before he burned through her armor completely.

Modifié par Agugaboo, 19 avril 2012 - 02:01 .

[Kelwing]

Banelash wrote...

there is one part of Bioware's dissmisal of this IDT that I don't get. Can they explain that boy at the start on earth? Walking into a room and getting blasted by a reaper, than found in a vent, and when shepard turned, he is gone

Ah yes.

The Core Engineering Room that had a locked door that the kid would have had zero access to. Plus the time in which you first see him and the Reapers hit. The kid would never have made it there in the short amount of time.

I still think that kid if ever alive was long dead after you intially saw him playing on the roof with the toy. Was kinda in the line of fire from Reaper when it hit the Defense committee room.

Modifié par Kelwing, 19 avril 2012 - 02:09 .

[Wabajakka]

Kelwing wrote...

Banelash wrote...

there is one part of Bioware's dissmisal of this IDT that I don't get. Can they explain that boy at the start on earth? Walking into a room and getting blasted by a reaper, than found in a vent, and when shepard turned, he is gone

Ah yes.

The Core Engineering Room that had a locked door that the kid would have had zero access to. Plus the time in which you first see him and the Reapers hit. The kid would never have made it there in the short amount of time.

I still think that kid if ever alive was long dead after you intially saw him playing on the roof with the toy. Was kinda in the line of fire from Reaper when it hit the Defense committee room.

Another thing to note though, Shepard actually is in close proximity to yet another Reaper blast before he enters the room where he sees the boy for the first time in the vent also before that he is hit by another one in the defense committee room. Shepard has been knocked around quite a bit before he starts seeing this boy, he's not in the right mind and it is obviously much more severe when he's almost killed by a Reaper blast. There are just too many hints towards indoctrination being true I just hope we're all right about this.

I also never thought about that, that boy was definitely way too close to that initial defense committee room blast to have survived and there's NO way he could've moved to that building so quickly (which was also hit by a Reaper beam). I think it's well confirmed that the kid never existed though.

ZackG312 wrote...

Good read and very believable.

Thanks. Glad to see some people agree. I can only hope I'm right, because how finicky BW has been around the original IDT has just been telling me we're getting something right, just not the whole picture, hopefully I'm close enough though.

Let me know if I need to expand on any points in my version of the theory to make it more clear, or if I may have missed something completely.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 19 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[liggy002]

Orange Tee wrote...

IDT without disregarding the entire ending as a dream makes a lot more sense, it is more likely to be explained in EC DLC this way and here's my thoughts on why.

No, the scene where Shepard wakes up looks too similar to London.  Analyze the scene closely, then compare it to what you see when running to the beam,   and it will become clear that it is highly likely this scene is London.

Modifié par liggy002, 19 avril 2012 - 05:07 .

[liggy002]

Banelash wrote...

there is one part of Bioware's dissmisal of this IDT that I don't get. Can they explain that boy at the start on earth? Walking into a room and getting blasted by a reaper, than found in a vent, and when shepard turned, he is gone

Or the caution and danger signs that we see the boy standing near on 3 different occasions.  They mean to tell us that this means nothing.  I don't think so.

Modifié par liggy002, 19 avril 2012 - 05:09 .