I think that the Control and Synthesis options are Reaper-induced deceptions. Control is what TIM believed and Synthesis is how Reapers reproduce. Shep still moves weak and hurt for those two, but moves as if he just became instantly sober and healthy as he runs towards the red terminal. Also: the 1M1 writing on the left (control) is I think a subtle way of telling Shep that the left-side option is correct. The mirrored 1M1 on the right tells Shep that the right-side option is wrong. Incidentally, the 1M1 is written on what looks like a human fighter's wing and gun. What is human tech doing on the Citadel? Look at the wheels on the left - MAKO wheels? Is reality bleeding in to Shep's mind? Is Shep still in London? Or: Did Shep ever regain consciousness after being knocked out in the opening mission?
The IT Works Without it Being a Total Dream and Why it May Even be Better.
Débuté par
Wabajakka
, avril 12 2012 02:58
Retour en haut
#127
Posté 03 mai 2012 - 07:12
Silasqtx
-
- Members
- 1 010 messages
*Sigh* Not another Indoctrination thread.
Explaination to all your *points*: Laziness and/or Time Limitation.
Explaination to all your *points*: Laziness and/or Time Limitation.
Modifié par Silasqtx, 03 mai 2012 - 07:14 .
#128
Posté 03 mai 2012 - 06:38
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
Silasqtx wrote...
*Sigh* Not another Indoctrination thread.
Explaination to all your *points*: Laziness and/or Time Limitation.
Funny, because my version works around that point exactly.
Too bad you didn't read it or you may of come up with some viable criticism, which I'm still waiting on.
GenObiOne wrote...
I think that the Control and Synthesis options are Reaper-induced deceptions. Control is what TIM believed and Synthesis is how Reapers reproduce. Shep still moves weak and hurt for those two, but moves as if he just became instantly sober and healthy as he runs towards the red terminal. Also: the 1M1 writing on the left (control) is I think a subtle way of telling Shep that the left-side option is correct. The mirrored 1M1 on the right tells Shep that the right-side option is wrong. Incidentally, the 1M1 is written on what looks like a human fighter's wing and gun. What is human tech doing on the Citadel? Look at the wheels on the left - MAKO wheels? Is reality bleeding in to Shep's mind? Is Shep still in London? Or: Did Shep ever regain consciousness after being knocked out in the opening mission?
I appreciate the reply, truly. But please refrain from reciting proofs from the original IDT, I'm fully aware and yes they do support my theory as well as the original IDT. Thank you, but let's talk about the possibilities that I've presented here if you even read them.
I'm beginning to think I should just add the proofs the original IDT has just to stop this and to display my theory uses the same proofs as th IDT, mine is just an adjusted explanation....
Modifié par Orange Tee, 03 mai 2012 - 07:14 .
#129
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 04:31
pro5
-
- Members
- 314 messages
Awesome, a very well-maintained and formatted thread.
I have some doubts about the idea that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel, primary reasons being:
- the ending sequence is too much SURREAL to be actually happening, there's just too many bits and pieces that don't fit together unless Bioware intentionally put them there (there's sloppy and there's UNBELIEVABLY sloppy).
- If Shepard was on the Citadel, when how did he survive the Citadel explosion in Destroy (unless we assume those ending scenes were totally hallucinated as well)? He was right at the epicenter of it, without helmet and armor.
- The waking up scene. The rubble is TOO similar to the rubble in London.
By the way, there's one out of game piece of evidence you might want to add to your list. THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
Check out these threads:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597
http://social.biowar.../index/10196661
Bioware has been playing with the concept of "breaking the 4th wall" for a LONG time.
I have some doubts about the idea that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel, primary reasons being:
- the ending sequence is too much SURREAL to be actually happening, there's just too many bits and pieces that don't fit together unless Bioware intentionally put them there (there's sloppy and there's UNBELIEVABLY sloppy).
- If Shepard was on the Citadel, when how did he survive the Citadel explosion in Destroy (unless we assume those ending scenes were totally hallucinated as well)? He was right at the epicenter of it, without helmet and armor.
- The waking up scene. The rubble is TOO similar to the rubble in London.
By the way, there's one out of game piece of evidence you might want to add to your list. THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
Check out these threads:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597
http://social.biowar.../index/10196661
Bioware has been playing with the concept of "breaking the 4th wall" for a LONG time.
#130
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 04:36
XXIceColdXX
-
- Members
- 1 230 messages
Good read OP. wish summer was here already
#131
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 04:49
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
pro5 wrote...
Awesome, a very well-maintained and formatted thread.
I have some doubts about the idea that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel, primary reasons being:
- the ending sequence is too much SURREAL to be actually happening, there's just too many bits and pieces that don't fit together unless Bioware intentionally put them there (there's sloppy and there's UNBELIEVABLY sloppy).
- If Shepard was on the Citadel, when how did he survive the Citadel explosion in Destroy (unless we assume those ending scenes were totally hallucinated as well)? He was right at the epicenter of it, without helmet and armor.
- The waking up scene. The rubble is TOO similar to the rubble in London.
By the way, there's one out of game piece of evidence you might want to add to your list. THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
Check out these threads:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597
http://social.biowar.../index/10196661
Bioware has been playing with the concept of "breaking the 4th wall" for a LONG time.
OMG.
THANK YOU. I remember seeing that first thread you linked before I made this one! One of the things that inspired me to make this one! I've been trying to find it forever lol! I'm definitely going to be adding this to my main post.
To answer Shepard surviving the Citadel blast: I believe Priestly and Merizan both reminded people that the Citadel has some sort of lockdown procedure that takes place for situation where the Citadel is in danger of being destroyed. (Apperentley in the Codex, I don't remember though) so expecting 100% casualties of people on the Citadel during the explosion is incorrect and could also be an explination on why Shep survived it.
Remember if the Catalyst scene is a hallucination, Shep isn't standing in space with no protection between the Council Tower and the Crucible, he's still in that chamber beside Andersons and TIM's bodies. Also presuming that where they are is somewhere near/under the Council Tower, it would have the heaviest lockdown probably.
XXIceColdXX wrote...
Good read OP. wish summer was here already
Also, Thanks! Me too...
Modifié par Orange Tee, 04 mai 2012 - 04:51 .
#132
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 11:47
Numara
-
- Members
- 80 messages
Nice post, I do believe Shep its actually at the citadel but hallucinating about the things he/she hear and see, and for me only destruccion can work, otherwise Shep is betraying his/her friends, friends that are willing to die to stop the Reapers ( including geth and EDI), also i hope theres a way to save EDI and the geth in destroy... lets see what happens at the EC
#133
Posté 04 mai 2012 - 05:47
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
Numara wrote...
Nice post, I do believe Shep its actually at the citadel but hallucinating about the things he/she hear and see, and for me only destruccion can work, otherwise Shep is betraying his/her friends, friends that are willing to die to stop the Reapers ( including geth and EDI), also i hope theres a way to save EDI and the geth in destroy... lets see what happens at the EC
Thanks. We can only hope that the "Catalyst" is in fact lying.
All points made about the Catalyst point to it lying though. We'll see when EC rolls around!
#134
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 08:19
Dream98
-
- Members
- 1 messages
Great post, this is the best theory I've seen and I agree with it. I liked IT but the problem with it is that the ending would just have been a neat gimmick but would not have actually ended the story. I think Shepard just being dead could even be the end of the story, but if he's just dreaming, then he's not dead and so the story isn't over. With this theory everything actually happens so it does actually end the story, specifically with the Destruction ending since the mission of destroying the Reapers has been achieved. And with the other endings, Shepard is apparently dead so that would be the end of the story too, but I think Destruction is the "good" ending.
Maybe not all the details will end up being correct, but I do think indoctrination, or at least an attempt at indoctrination is happening. There are too many clues that line up with it that I don't know how else could be explained. Like the shrubs and the black lines around the screen. Those didn't get added by accident, so what else could they mean? It just looks like subtle clues to show indoctrination.
A lot of people have issues with the Joker sequence, but it doesn't seem like something impossible, just something that wasn't explained. The argument is the crew would never leave Shepard, but I think if everyone thought he was dead, the whole war could have changed and maybe at that time, they were in the process of retreating or regrouping to come up with a different strategy.
A couple of other points I'll throw out while I'm in a posting mood. Maybe these things have been mentioned before but I just joined yesterday so go easy on me. TIM and prior Protheans believed in control. The argument that the Catalyst gives against Destruction (which would normally of course seem to be the best option) is that synthetics will always wipe out organics. This may actually have been very convincing for many that became indoctrinated before and so control would seem like the best option (although in the case of TIM, I think he just likes the idea of control and power anyway). Of course, control is just a trick and the reapers always won in the end.
The interesting thing about the current situation is that Shepard has gained perspective on synthetics and how they view sentience through his interactions with EDI and the Geth and especially in creating peace between the Geth and the Quarians so he would know that the Catalyst's claims are not correct. Therefore he could outright reject the argument given against Destruction. This should tell us that we shouldn't accept everything the Catalyst says at face value. Knowing that that is a lie, Shepard could presume that the Catalyst is also lying about Destruction destroying all synthetics as well (thought that would be a gamble). But in that situation, he could have seen that neither synthesis nor control has worked before (as he's witnessed both Saren and TIM) so the only real option is Destruction. And I think that even in the Destruction ending, we can see that EDI is still alive which would mean the Catalyst was actually lying.
As you say, the reapers don't just force a person to believe something, they manipulate them to make them think that they have chosen control or synthesis on their own and that they truly believe it's the best option. That's why I think the logical inconsistencies in the Catalyst's reasoning (like destroying all organics with synthetics to prevent them from being destroyed by their own synthetics) is all part of how they try to confuse and manipulate. They aren't giving the real story. Shepard has seen that synthetics are not inherently bad and apparently the Catalyst is even using synthetics of his own and doesn't seem to fear them destroying him. In the context of manipulation/indoctrination the apparent logic problems make more sense. I just don't see the writers all of a sudden forgetting what the story and themes were at the end. I think it's to make the player question the information they are getting and actually think about it carefully so they can make the right choice that no one else has made before (destruction).
Maybe not all the details will end up being correct, but I do think indoctrination, or at least an attempt at indoctrination is happening. There are too many clues that line up with it that I don't know how else could be explained. Like the shrubs and the black lines around the screen. Those didn't get added by accident, so what else could they mean? It just looks like subtle clues to show indoctrination.
A lot of people have issues with the Joker sequence, but it doesn't seem like something impossible, just something that wasn't explained. The argument is the crew would never leave Shepard, but I think if everyone thought he was dead, the whole war could have changed and maybe at that time, they were in the process of retreating or regrouping to come up with a different strategy.
A couple of other points I'll throw out while I'm in a posting mood. Maybe these things have been mentioned before but I just joined yesterday so go easy on me. TIM and prior Protheans believed in control. The argument that the Catalyst gives against Destruction (which would normally of course seem to be the best option) is that synthetics will always wipe out organics. This may actually have been very convincing for many that became indoctrinated before and so control would seem like the best option (although in the case of TIM, I think he just likes the idea of control and power anyway). Of course, control is just a trick and the reapers always won in the end.
The interesting thing about the current situation is that Shepard has gained perspective on synthetics and how they view sentience through his interactions with EDI and the Geth and especially in creating peace between the Geth and the Quarians so he would know that the Catalyst's claims are not correct. Therefore he could outright reject the argument given against Destruction. This should tell us that we shouldn't accept everything the Catalyst says at face value. Knowing that that is a lie, Shepard could presume that the Catalyst is also lying about Destruction destroying all synthetics as well (thought that would be a gamble). But in that situation, he could have seen that neither synthesis nor control has worked before (as he's witnessed both Saren and TIM) so the only real option is Destruction. And I think that even in the Destruction ending, we can see that EDI is still alive which would mean the Catalyst was actually lying.
As you say, the reapers don't just force a person to believe something, they manipulate them to make them think that they have chosen control or synthesis on their own and that they truly believe it's the best option. That's why I think the logical inconsistencies in the Catalyst's reasoning (like destroying all organics with synthetics to prevent them from being destroyed by their own synthetics) is all part of how they try to confuse and manipulate. They aren't giving the real story. Shepard has seen that synthetics are not inherently bad and apparently the Catalyst is even using synthetics of his own and doesn't seem to fear them destroying him. In the context of manipulation/indoctrination the apparent logic problems make more sense. I just don't see the writers all of a sudden forgetting what the story and themes were at the end. I think it's to make the player question the information they are getting and actually think about it carefully so they can make the right choice that no one else has made before (destruction).
Modifié par Dream98, 05 mai 2012 - 08:21 .
#135
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 09:02
Silasqtx
-
- Members
- 1 010 messages
I don't want to repeat myself over and over, so do me a favor and add "Lazy Writing/Time restrictions" at the end of every sentence of mine in this post. (abbreviated: LW/TR)
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
It's impossible to assume that Stargazer is talking about something that happened BEFORE the ending
[/quote]
Actually, it is possible.
*Alrighty kid, i'll tell you the story of Shepard hacking computers on Ilium, this happened during his quest against the collectors*
There you are.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Either way, the words Stargazer (the old man) said at the end will carry much more meaning after EC.[/quote]
Maybe, maybe not. Speculation.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
II. Remember, the Reapers are ALREADY inside Shepards head before the ending.
So, getting on with my point, has anyone truly considered that none of it was a dream but still indoctrination? Maybe Shep WAS indoc'd the whole time during the Citadel bit? Maybe it's that stupid little Starchild that never existed? Think about it, when has the kid EVER existed? Shepard thinks the kid actually existed (we all know he never existed), then he sees the kids shuttle explode, then the kid haunts his dreams and then next time Shepard sees the kid outside a dream is a ghost... Think about that. Also, How would anything or anyone else but Shepard know what this kid looks or sounds like? (not to mention Shepard hearing him/herself when it talks) This is a projection of Shepards mind, nothing else, which is why the whole Starchild AI controlling reapers doesn't make sense and is NOT possible.[/quote]
Logically, I'd agree with you, but it seems to me that it's pretty real, according to Bioware.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Don't forget, the reapers don't have "direct" control over Shep, they didn't have "direct" control over Saren or TIM either (if they did they wouldn't be able to kill themselves, think about it), they don't control the kid Shep sees and this is the same kind of indoc Saren and TIM experience. This is the kind of indoc where the victim is suseptable to the Reapers "suggestions" like synthesis for Saren and control for TIM. That being said, I think the kid was just a way that the indoc'd part of Shep was trying to convince him/herself into not destroying the reapers and considering the options that two previously indoc'd villans were made to believe was the answer. (synthesis, Saren and control, TIM). [/quote]
My 2 cents on this:
I think that Shepard resisted Indoctrination, period. When all else fails, the starchild (aka: a Reaper) tries to convince Shepard that Control/Synthesis are the best solutions. It's a psychological trick game imo. "Yes, you COULD destroy us, but you will also destroy synthetics and you will die"
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
III. Saren and TIM didn't think the Reapers told them synthesis or control was right, they thought they believed it themselves...
Javik himself says indoc'd agents of his time believed control was the only option in winning. Evidence that control is a Reaper created ideal and that it is not actually possible. I refuse to believe ME's/BW's incredible writers just ****ed up and lied this badly on previously established proofs and massive hints...
I haven't really noticed anyone make the connection that the ideals of synthesis and control both result in death to Shepard, exactly the same fate as Saren and TIM, (not to mention he also suddenly gets the same "Reaper eyes" as them when he dies) only giving more evidence towards them both being false ideas created by the Reapers themselves.
Basically what I'm trying to say is this, that the ending stage with Starchild and the three RGB choices is "kind of" a dream (the kid and possibly the space around him) if that makes sense, nothing else is. All the parts before and after that happen just as we see them. Shep is at the controls making the decision on whether or not to destroy the Reapers, but he's seeing some things that just aren't there, this battle is PARTLY in his mind, not entirely. It's like he's right there, ready to hit the "destroy Reaper" button, but suddenly he goes partly unconscious as something in his mind tells him something else (in this case it's the reapers ideas not his), if that makes sense, he's projecting things like the ghost child who just isn't there (just like in the vent). I think this will be explained in the Extended Cut DLC.[/quote]
Lazy Writing/Time Limit. I appreciate the effort, but they really screwed up.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
IV. You killed two people who believed control and synthesis was possible, now suddenly you believe them entirely without question? WTF...[/quote]
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Also, this alteration to the theory also doesn't disregard the cutscenes you see afterwards as "illusions" either, they're true, but think about it... The reapers are still alive in the other two cutscenes! This goes against the goal of the entire ****ing series, [/quote]
We know that already, nothing new here. That's why lots of people chose Destroy and not one of those fake choices.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
again I doubt they ****ed up this bad because LITERALLY every character everyone ever loved on Sheps team emphisizes destroying the reapers, this theme can't suddenly become completely untrue in a matter of seconds, (literally, seconds) that's ridiculous. [/quote]
Yeah, it is. But it seems to me, again, that BW proudly defends this contradiction.
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
V. Now what is really going on in these other ending cutscenes? Control?? Synthesis!?!?! It can't be...
No hallucinations here, but possibly, in the control ending the only reason the relays and Citadel are still intact, is because they could've been using Shepard the same way they used Saren... [/quote]
Nooo. That's because it ends this way, without speculations.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Then the synthesis ending could easily just be a huge signal boost used for mass indoctrination, notice how Joker is still limping, clearly no synthetic implants to help him walk straight and EDI clearly didn't become any more organic and we know what the Reapers can do to indoc'd organics visually/physically. Just a thought.[/quote]
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
The Citadel is Reaper tech itself, the option to amplify indoc signals would totally be there, correct me if I'm wrong but why wouldn't they be? And why couldn't the relays be used to transmit that very signal across the galaxy? The relays are used for comms in ME and were also created by the reapers. [/quote]
Contradiction. If it was amplifying the signals, why isn't everyone in the Citadel indoctrinated?
Again, LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Also, I think the reason Harbinger flew away was to try to manipulate Shepard better [/quote]
Sorry, you're giving them too much credit. From what I've seen, he's like "k Hammer raped, i'm done here bye"
Again, LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Not to mention that this theory alteration would also explain why Shep is alive on Citadel rubble (possibly confirmed, he's on the Citadel) [/quote]
He's not on the Citadel for one simple reason. You cannot breathe in space. You cannot take a breath in space. He's clearly on Earth.
Again, LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
and how EDI is still alive if she was in your squad (confirmed, not a bug) also proves that there are some complete lies said by the Starchild BW said it themselves, Starkid lies about EDI dying and Shep dying in destroy, so again I call bull**** on the writers being THIS sloppy on purpose.[/quote]
LW/TR, you're giving them too much credit.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
VI. The reason Joker is running, and possibly all the fleets Shepard amassed...
Notice no ships surrounding Earth in the end cutscene like they were when you were making that RGB choice? You don't even see any noticeable ship rubble, just Reapers, wtf.[/quote]
TR, TR and TR.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
The armies of the galaxy are presumed to be retreating ever since Shep woke up and started walking to the beam. This could be because they have lost comms with Shep, he is not responding suddenly and is presumed to be dead. Notice how Hackett NEVER acknowledges Shepard actually responding to him... It sounded like a last ditch attempt to contact Shepard because the Citadel arms opened mysteriously, even if he did hear Shepard, Hackett wouldn't just stop trying to contact him altogether after that initial attempt. Think about it from Hacketts perspective, there's no way he knows Shepard opened the Citadels arms... Shepard is not entirely conscious in reality, but Shepard is presumed dead by others because he never contacted Hackett. [/quote]
LW, LW, LW.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
So, soon after the Crucible is attached after the Citadel arms mysteriously open, they wait. Then they notice odd amounts of energy coming from the Citadel, it looks like it's going to explode, Shepard + Anderson likely dead so ALL ships not just Joker, run. This would explain why the explosion affects the Normandy at all because they are in mid-relay flight. Extended Cut could show a scene where Joker argues with Hackett about going to save Shep (to see if he's/she's even alive) after saving the Normandy ground crew, (they don't know what happened to Shep after the blast, they think he's dead, LI in disbelief briefly) but Hackett convinces him they're all probably dead if they're caught in that explosion, (Shep wouldn't want that) they also tell ground forces that the fleets are in full retreat and they should bunker down as well, the Citadel is going to explode. Also, since all fleets were running, and the Normandy obviously the only one caught in a mid-relay blast, (but many other ships could've too) the crew being rescued is not far-fetched at all and Shepard could easily get in contact/reunite with the crew afterwards. [/quote]
Wild speculation. Also, when you confront the Starchild you can clearly see the battle raging around you. Giving that the RGB irradiates at enormous speed from the Citadel, the fleets couldn't possibly escape that. So, unfortunately, it's LW/TR again.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
BW said themselves Shepard can reunite with his crew if he lived and this will be shown in Extended Cut. If this is possible WHY would you pick any other ending? This is just more proof towards the other endings being the "wrong" endings if you will. [/quote]
They also said that our choices would matter.
The rest is hogwash to me, manipulation theory and stuff, simply giving them too much credit and trying to explain the trainwreck RGB ending.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote... This then explains why Anderson was being held under control at all during that end scene, he's been surrounded by Reapers for the entire game and has some other completely indoc'd rat in his ranks. Hope this helps clear some unknowns up, thanks to JustinElenbaas (BSN) and ragamuffingunner (reddit) with their topics I used to help support this.[/quote]
*J.Jonas Jameson laugh here*
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
[/i]"I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you." - Neo
Take that into consideration. It's really interesting when you think about it, especially since the end of the first Matrix had Neo die, then come back to life with new realization (that he's the one), so what was Mac talking about when he referenced the "end of first Matrix" have we yet to see that reference in fact?[/quote]
No.
Also, why tell us to keep our saves? [/quote]
EXPAND YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH FURTHER DLC!!!1one It's obvious that they will work for something after the ending.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Why allude to planning something that will want us to keep our copies forever? (See Mike Gambles and others twitter) Surely may be lies, but what if they just aren't? What if they were held by time contraints but were planning to make it up, in a BIG way? Did we just miss the big hint? [i]They wouldn't want to point it out themselves, it would ruin the fun. It explains their stubbornness and standpoint on the ending so well... Sure, they may be saying things just to get us to hold on a bit longer and do damage control, but what if there's truth to what's being said? Surely they know we won't be interested in buying ANY DLC that does not entail something that happens during or after the ending...[/quote]
No, you're grasping at straws, IMO.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
It's impossible to assume that Stargazer is talking about something that happened BEFORE the ending
[/quote]
Actually, it is possible.
*Alrighty kid, i'll tell you the story of Shepard hacking computers on Ilium, this happened during his quest against the collectors*
There you are.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Either way, the words Stargazer (the old man) said at the end will carry much more meaning after EC.[/quote]
Maybe, maybe not. Speculation.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
II. Remember, the Reapers are ALREADY inside Shepards head before the ending.
So, getting on with my point, has anyone truly considered that none of it was a dream but still indoctrination? Maybe Shep WAS indoc'd the whole time during the Citadel bit? Maybe it's that stupid little Starchild that never existed? Think about it, when has the kid EVER existed? Shepard thinks the kid actually existed (we all know he never existed), then he sees the kids shuttle explode, then the kid haunts his dreams and then next time Shepard sees the kid outside a dream is a ghost... Think about that. Also, How would anything or anyone else but Shepard know what this kid looks or sounds like? (not to mention Shepard hearing him/herself when it talks) This is a projection of Shepards mind, nothing else, which is why the whole Starchild AI controlling reapers doesn't make sense and is NOT possible.[/quote]
Logically, I'd agree with you, but it seems to me that it's pretty real, according to Bioware.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Don't forget, the reapers don't have "direct" control over Shep, they didn't have "direct" control over Saren or TIM either (if they did they wouldn't be able to kill themselves, think about it), they don't control the kid Shep sees and this is the same kind of indoc Saren and TIM experience. This is the kind of indoc where the victim is suseptable to the Reapers "suggestions" like synthesis for Saren and control for TIM. That being said, I think the kid was just a way that the indoc'd part of Shep was trying to convince him/herself into not destroying the reapers and considering the options that two previously indoc'd villans were made to believe was the answer. (synthesis, Saren and control, TIM). [/quote]
My 2 cents on this:
I think that Shepard resisted Indoctrination, period. When all else fails, the starchild (aka: a Reaper) tries to convince Shepard that Control/Synthesis are the best solutions. It's a psychological trick game imo. "Yes, you COULD destroy us, but you will also destroy synthetics and you will die"
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
III. Saren and TIM didn't think the Reapers told them synthesis or control was right, they thought they believed it themselves...
Javik himself says indoc'd agents of his time believed control was the only option in winning. Evidence that control is a Reaper created ideal and that it is not actually possible. I refuse to believe ME's/BW's incredible writers just ****ed up and lied this badly on previously established proofs and massive hints...
I haven't really noticed anyone make the connection that the ideals of synthesis and control both result in death to Shepard, exactly the same fate as Saren and TIM, (not to mention he also suddenly gets the same "Reaper eyes" as them when he dies) only giving more evidence towards them both being false ideas created by the Reapers themselves.
Basically what I'm trying to say is this, that the ending stage with Starchild and the three RGB choices is "kind of" a dream (the kid and possibly the space around him) if that makes sense, nothing else is. All the parts before and after that happen just as we see them. Shep is at the controls making the decision on whether or not to destroy the Reapers, but he's seeing some things that just aren't there, this battle is PARTLY in his mind, not entirely. It's like he's right there, ready to hit the "destroy Reaper" button, but suddenly he goes partly unconscious as something in his mind tells him something else (in this case it's the reapers ideas not his), if that makes sense, he's projecting things like the ghost child who just isn't there (just like in the vent). I think this will be explained in the Extended Cut DLC.[/quote]
Lazy Writing/Time Limit. I appreciate the effort, but they really screwed up.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
IV. You killed two people who believed control and synthesis was possible, now suddenly you believe them entirely without question? WTF...[/quote]
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Also, this alteration to the theory also doesn't disregard the cutscenes you see afterwards as "illusions" either, they're true, but think about it... The reapers are still alive in the other two cutscenes! This goes against the goal of the entire ****ing series, [/quote]
We know that already, nothing new here. That's why lots of people chose Destroy and not one of those fake choices.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
again I doubt they ****ed up this bad because LITERALLY every character everyone ever loved on Sheps team emphisizes destroying the reapers, this theme can't suddenly become completely untrue in a matter of seconds, (literally, seconds) that's ridiculous. [/quote]
Yeah, it is. But it seems to me, again, that BW proudly defends this contradiction.
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
V. Now what is really going on in these other ending cutscenes? Control?? Synthesis!?!?! It can't be...
No hallucinations here, but possibly, in the control ending the only reason the relays and Citadel are still intact, is because they could've been using Shepard the same way they used Saren... [/quote]
Nooo. That's because it ends this way, without speculations.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Then the synthesis ending could easily just be a huge signal boost used for mass indoctrination, notice how Joker is still limping, clearly no synthetic implants to help him walk straight and EDI clearly didn't become any more organic and we know what the Reapers can do to indoc'd organics visually/physically. Just a thought.[/quote]
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
The Citadel is Reaper tech itself, the option to amplify indoc signals would totally be there, correct me if I'm wrong but why wouldn't they be? And why couldn't the relays be used to transmit that very signal across the galaxy? The relays are used for comms in ME and were also created by the reapers. [/quote]
Contradiction. If it was amplifying the signals, why isn't everyone in the Citadel indoctrinated?
Again, LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Also, I think the reason Harbinger flew away was to try to manipulate Shepard better [/quote]
Sorry, you're giving them too much credit. From what I've seen, he's like "k Hammer raped, i'm done here bye"
Again, LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Not to mention that this theory alteration would also explain why Shep is alive on Citadel rubble (possibly confirmed, he's on the Citadel) [/quote]
He's not on the Citadel for one simple reason. You cannot breathe in space. You cannot take a breath in space. He's clearly on Earth.
Again, LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
and how EDI is still alive if she was in your squad (confirmed, not a bug) also proves that there are some complete lies said by the Starchild BW said it themselves, Starkid lies about EDI dying and Shep dying in destroy, so again I call bull**** on the writers being THIS sloppy on purpose.[/quote]
LW/TR, you're giving them too much credit.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
VI. The reason Joker is running, and possibly all the fleets Shepard amassed...
Notice no ships surrounding Earth in the end cutscene like they were when you were making that RGB choice? You don't even see any noticeable ship rubble, just Reapers, wtf.[/quote]
TR, TR and TR.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
The armies of the galaxy are presumed to be retreating ever since Shep woke up and started walking to the beam. This could be because they have lost comms with Shep, he is not responding suddenly and is presumed to be dead. Notice how Hackett NEVER acknowledges Shepard actually responding to him... It sounded like a last ditch attempt to contact Shepard because the Citadel arms opened mysteriously, even if he did hear Shepard, Hackett wouldn't just stop trying to contact him altogether after that initial attempt. Think about it from Hacketts perspective, there's no way he knows Shepard opened the Citadels arms... Shepard is not entirely conscious in reality, but Shepard is presumed dead by others because he never contacted Hackett. [/quote]
LW, LW, LW.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
So, soon after the Crucible is attached after the Citadel arms mysteriously open, they wait. Then they notice odd amounts of energy coming from the Citadel, it looks like it's going to explode, Shepard + Anderson likely dead so ALL ships not just Joker, run. This would explain why the explosion affects the Normandy at all because they are in mid-relay flight. Extended Cut could show a scene where Joker argues with Hackett about going to save Shep (to see if he's/she's even alive) after saving the Normandy ground crew, (they don't know what happened to Shep after the blast, they think he's dead, LI in disbelief briefly) but Hackett convinces him they're all probably dead if they're caught in that explosion, (Shep wouldn't want that) they also tell ground forces that the fleets are in full retreat and they should bunker down as well, the Citadel is going to explode. Also, since all fleets were running, and the Normandy obviously the only one caught in a mid-relay blast, (but many other ships could've too) the crew being rescued is not far-fetched at all and Shepard could easily get in contact/reunite with the crew afterwards. [/quote]
Wild speculation. Also, when you confront the Starchild you can clearly see the battle raging around you. Giving that the RGB irradiates at enormous speed from the Citadel, the fleets couldn't possibly escape that. So, unfortunately, it's LW/TR again.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
BW said themselves Shepard can reunite with his crew if he lived and this will be shown in Extended Cut. If this is possible WHY would you pick any other ending? This is just more proof towards the other endings being the "wrong" endings if you will. [/quote]
They also said that our choices would matter.
The rest is hogwash to me, manipulation theory and stuff, simply giving them too much credit and trying to explain the trainwreck RGB ending.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote... This then explains why Anderson was being held under control at all during that end scene, he's been surrounded by Reapers for the entire game and has some other completely indoc'd rat in his ranks. Hope this helps clear some unknowns up, thanks to JustinElenbaas (BSN) and ragamuffingunner (reddit) with their topics I used to help support this.[/quote]
*J.Jonas Jameson laugh here*
LW/TR
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
[/i]"I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you." - Neo
Take that into consideration. It's really interesting when you think about it, especially since the end of the first Matrix had Neo die, then come back to life with new realization (that he's the one), so what was Mac talking about when he referenced the "end of first Matrix" have we yet to see that reference in fact?[/quote]
No.
- "You're afraid of us humans"
- "You're afraid of change" = You're afraid that someone breaks your "perfect" circle.
- "I don't know the future,I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin" = Activating the Crucible, with the choices you get, will create a new world order, with or without Reapers.
- "I'm going to show you a world without you.. without borders or boundaries, without controls" = Destroy Ending.
Also, why tell us to keep our saves? [/quote]
EXPAND YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH FURTHER DLC!!!1one It's obvious that they will work for something after the ending.
[quote]Orange Tee wrote...
Why allude to planning something that will want us to keep our copies forever? (See Mike Gambles and others twitter) Surely may be lies, but what if they just aren't? What if they were held by time contraints but were planning to make it up, in a BIG way? Did we just miss the big hint? [i]They wouldn't want to point it out themselves, it would ruin the fun. It explains their stubbornness and standpoint on the ending so well... Sure, they may be saying things just to get us to hold on a bit longer and do damage control, but what if there's truth to what's being said? Surely they know we won't be interested in buying ANY DLC that does not entail something that happens during or after the ending...[/quote]
No, you're grasping at straws, IMO.
- @OP I read your post, but as you can see the whole thing you wrote can be explained with LW/TR, soz.
Modifié par Silasqtx, 05 mai 2012 - 09:06 .
#136
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 09:18
Mcjon01
-
- Members
- 537 messages
pro5 wrote...
Awesome, a very well-maintained and formatted thread.
I have some doubts about the idea that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel, primary reasons being:
- the ending sequence is too much SURREAL to be actually happening, there's just too many bits and pieces that don't fit together unless Bioware intentionally put them there (there's sloppy and there's UNBELIEVABLY sloppy).
- If Shepard was on the Citadel, when how did he survive the Citadel explosion in Destroy (unless we assume those ending scenes were totally hallucinated as well)? He was right at the epicenter of it, without helmet and armor.
- The waking up scene. The rubble is TOO similar to the rubble in London.
By the way, there's one out of game piece of evidence you might want to add to your list. THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
Check out these threads:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597
http://social.biowar.../index/10196661
Bioware has been playing with the concept of "breaking the 4th wall" for a LONG time.
There's something very, very important that happens in those other games, though, that doesn't happen in ME3. Resolution of the trick. Sure, they'll give you a fake ending if you choose wrong in Hordes of the Underdark, but choose correctly and you break free and continue the game. Similarly, in DA:O, not only is the dream sequence pretty transparently a dream sequence, but when you advance properly you break free and continue the game. And in DA2, when they feel the player has had enough, the unreliable narrator is interrupted and you're snapped back into the real story to continue the game.
In ME3, there's none of that. You get to the choice people claim is the important "break out of the illusion or submit entirely" fork, but no matter what you do it's the end. Game over. Cue nearly identical, vague cutscenes and roll credits.
#137
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 11:16
liggy002
-
- Members
- 5 337 messages
You can believe that the ending is real. That's your choice. It's such a mess though and there is evidence that points to the ending part being an illusion. That Deus Ex Machina anticlimactic shoot a pipe to kill the Reapers is pure crap.
#138
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 12:07
Applepie_Svk
-
- Members
- 5 469 messages
I thought about this stuff since day 1, as Catalyst show us 3 decisions each of them is presented in game by some of protagonis:
1. synthesis - Saren 2. Control - TIM 3. Destroy - Anderson
Each of them has own positives/negatives but the Catalyst is trying to present last option as a worst possibile (even worst if you pick saving geths or giving them peace with quarians)
Let´s look, synthesis - you will sacrifice yourself but you will secure peace and also you will give great gift to civilization for future, but you will loose Citadel and Relay which is unfortunate but still with knolendge which we have we will be able rebuild them in few decades.
Control - our conciosness will be placed into reapers which give us an edge against everything and everyone in galaxy, we also secure peace in some way because we are still more advanced than Geths and we could be something like a guardians in galaxy or tool for humanity. With such power which we wield we could rebuild relays in matter of months instead of years.
Destroy - this ending was pressented as a worst possibile, was it in purpose ?
You will probably die, Citadel and Relay even knowledge about reaper´s tech will be from most lost, lot of species will be die cause of starvation, anarchy, pirates and lot of Homeworlds will be for a long time just empy planets-graveyards ...
If you picked Geths they will eventualy die because they have a reaper code.Also Catalyst told you about future generations, which bring alive again AI and once again we will fight with syntheticis because we can´t learn from own mistakes.
(in this way if you pick geths, than sacrifice of Quarians was pointless or you can´t just justify one genocide with another)
(if you bring them peace it will be less evil because you was atleast able to save one of them instead of kiling both)
So the Catalist showing you 3 paths which are surounded by sacrifices a lot of them, but worst way looking like destroy ending. They are trying to convince you the others paths are better.
When you played ME2: ARRIVAL also you could learn from one of the Kenson´s diary how she start doubt about blowing off relay, in the end she was conviced that she is doing wrong same as Saren.
1. synthesis - Saren 2. Control - TIM 3. Destroy - Anderson
Each of them has own positives/negatives but the Catalyst is trying to present last option as a worst possibile (even worst if you pick saving geths or giving them peace with quarians)
Let´s look, synthesis - you will sacrifice yourself but you will secure peace and also you will give great gift to civilization for future, but you will loose Citadel and Relay which is unfortunate but still with knolendge which we have we will be able rebuild them in few decades.
Control - our conciosness will be placed into reapers which give us an edge against everything and everyone in galaxy, we also secure peace in some way because we are still more advanced than Geths and we could be something like a guardians in galaxy or tool for humanity. With such power which we wield we could rebuild relays in matter of months instead of years.
Destroy - this ending was pressented as a worst possibile, was it in purpose ?
You will probably die, Citadel and Relay even knowledge about reaper´s tech will be from most lost, lot of species will be die cause of starvation, anarchy, pirates and lot of Homeworlds will be for a long time just empy planets-graveyards ...
If you picked Geths they will eventualy die because they have a reaper code.Also Catalyst told you about future generations, which bring alive again AI and once again we will fight with syntheticis because we can´t learn from own mistakes.
(in this way if you pick geths, than sacrifice of Quarians was pointless or you can´t just justify one genocide with another)
(if you bring them peace it will be less evil because you was atleast able to save one of them instead of kiling both)
So the Catalist showing you 3 paths which are surounded by sacrifices a lot of them, but worst way looking like destroy ending. They are trying to convince you the others paths are better.
When you played ME2: ARRIVAL also you could learn from one of the Kenson´s diary how she start doubt about blowing off relay, in the end she was conviced that she is doing wrong same as Saren.
#139
Posté 05 mai 2012 - 07:28
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
Mcjon01 wrote...
pro5 wrote...
Awesome, a very well-maintained and formatted thread.
I have some doubts about the idea that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel, primary reasons being:
- the ending sequence is too much SURREAL to be actually happening, there's just too many bits and pieces that don't fit together unless Bioware intentionally put them there (there's sloppy and there's UNBELIEVABLY sloppy).
- If Shepard was on the Citadel, when how did he survive the Citadel explosion in Destroy (unless we assume those ending scenes were totally hallucinated as well)? He was right at the epicenter of it, without helmet and armor.
- The waking up scene. The rubble is TOO similar to the rubble in London.
By the way, there's one out of game piece of evidence you might want to add to your list. THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
Check out these threads:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597
http://social.biowar.../index/10196661
Bioware has been playing with the concept of "breaking the 4th wall" for a LONG time.
There's something very, very important that happens in those other games, though, that doesn't happen in ME3. Resolution of the trick. Sure, they'll give you a fake ending if you choose wrong in Hordes of the Underdark, but choose correctly and you break free and continue the game. Similarly, in DA:O, not only is the dream sequence pretty transparently a dream sequence, but when you advance properly you break free and continue the game. And in DA2, when they feel the player has had enough, the unreliable narrator is interrupted and you're snapped back into the real story to continue the game.
In ME3, there's none of that. You get to the choice people claim is the important "break out of the illusion or submit entirely" fork, but no matter what you do it's the end. Game over. Cue nearly identical, vague cutscenes and roll credits.
Yea that's very true, but then again think of the excitement it would bring if any of this was true? If there WAS another game or DLC after the ending. Think about what gaming has become with DLC content and how much content is cut from games now just to make it DLC and how pre-planned it is. They could have very well done the same thing with the original "Dark Energy" ending plot line and are planning to just make it the center of their next game or DLC like I've said, which is why it may have been cut from the story originally.
@Silasqtx. Edit: True enough, but do you really believe some of the greatest writers in video games today, even with time contraints, would just commit such writing suicide without purpose?
I call bull**** on lazy writing or time contraints, especially considering the option of DLC now.
Edit 2: Not to mention that this game was DELAYED. TWICE! People seem to forget that immensely, which is why, again, TR is complete and utter bull****. Sure they have had to cut off some pieces of over-ambitious content due to TR, but not the main plot, not by a mile, they had it all planned out. Thanks for trying to refute my entire post with such a contrived statement though.
Dream98 wrote...
*SNIP*
Thanks, glad you agree and good to see such a great response.
I agree though. Everyone is so up in arms about Joker running, but we could very well be missing his point of view, which is what I think exactly that's what we will get from EC.
The fact that BW is about to show us parts of the story that weren't told during that final sequence with EC means something and that it may very well bring things full circle with what we're getting from ME3 in the future. Because I think we all know damn well no one is interested in any DLC from this game if it has nothing to do with after the ending. Who would buy a DLC that just gives us more worthless War Assets?
Also, again, the fact that at the very least, it will implied that Shepard reunites with his crew in EC. Why pick another ending? There only is one ending, that's why. Gives them the ability to set up for another game or IMO DLC.
liggy002 wrote...
You can believe that the ending is real. That's your choice. It's such a mess though and there is evidence that points to the ending part being an illusion. That Deus Ex Machina anticlimactic shoot a pipe to kill the Reapers is pure crap.
Oh sure I don't doubt it. It works both ways to be honest.
I guess my main point is that because BW has pretty much implied that "the endings happened", I'm looking at it a different way.
Modifié par Orange Tee, 06 mai 2012 - 05:17 .
#140
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 09:33
pro5
-
- Members
- 314 messages
Mcjon01 wrote...
pro5 wrote...
Awesome, a very well-maintained and formatted thread.
I have some doubts about the idea that Shepard actually made it to the Citadel, primary reasons being:
- the ending sequence is too much SURREAL to be actually happening, there's just too many bits and pieces that don't fit together unless Bioware intentionally put them there (there's sloppy and there's UNBELIEVABLY sloppy).
- If Shepard was on the Citadel, when how did he survive the Citadel explosion in Destroy (unless we assume those ending scenes were totally hallucinated as well)? He was right at the epicenter of it, without helmet and armor.
- The waking up scene. The rubble is TOO similar to the rubble in London.
By the way, there's one out of game piece of evidence you might want to add to your list. THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
Check out these threads:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597
http://social.biowar.../index/10196661
Bioware has been playing with the concept of "breaking the 4th wall" for a LONG time.
There's something very, very important that happens in those other games, though, that doesn't happen in ME3. Resolution of the trick. Sure, they'll give you a fake ending if you choose wrong in Hordes of the Underdark, but choose correctly and you break free and continue the game. Similarly, in DA:O, not only is the dream sequence pretty transparently a dream sequence, but when you advance properly you break free and continue the game. And in DA2, when they feel the player has had enough, the unreliable narrator is interrupted and you're snapped back into the real story to continue the game.
In ME3, there's none of that. You get to the choice people claim is the important "break out of the illusion or submit entirely" fork, but no matter what you do it's the end. Game over. Cue nearly identical, vague cutscenes and roll credits.
Agreed.
If they didn't leave that piece out, none of this mess would have happened and it still would have been a brilliant writing twist. I'm not sure why they decided to do it this way, if that was indeed intentional. If so, this whole mess was started at the moment that decision was made.
And another thing, if one of the existing non-literal interpretations is true, then Bioware's communication from day one till today has been ... far from perfect. They've been dropping very ambigious comments that can be taken either way, their answer to the IT theory question at PAX came across as if it was nothing more than an embarassing joke to them, and certain Bioware individuals are promoting Synthesis as their personal "favourite" ending on Twitter.
That, Bioware, is just you being cruel to your loyal fans and twisting the knife in the wound of DOUBT that we're right.
That's just ... not cool.
Modifié par pro5, 07 mai 2012 - 09:34 .
#141
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 06:49
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
pro5 wrote...
Agreed.
If they didn't leave that piece out, none of this mess would have happened and it still would have been a brilliant writing twist. I'm not sure why they decided to do it this way, if that was indeed intentional. If so, this whole mess was started at the moment that decision was made.
And another thing, if one of the existing non-literal interpretations is true, then Bioware's communication from day one till today has been ... far from perfect. They've been dropping very ambigious comments that can be taken either way, their answer to the IT theory question at PAX came across as if it was nothing more than an embarassing joke to them, and certain Bioware individuals are promoting Synthesis as their personal "favourite" ending on Twitter.
That, Bioware, is just you being cruel to your loyal fans and twisting the knife in the wound of DOUBT that we're right.
That's just ... not cool.
Ya they really do need to just spit it out whether or not some form of the IT is true... It's truly awful what they're doing to this fanbase over it, especially if it ends up being untrue. Then my opinion will really cahnge on BW on how poorly they've been handling this.
At this point though and the way they've been talking, I think it only can be true in some capacity and if not they're only going to ****** off a whole nother piece of their fanbase for just being decietful about it.
Also, if it ends up being true and then they say "we're not doing any post-ending DLC" and it's left up to fan headcannon.... Oh god I can't even imagine the rage that's gunna go down.
#143
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 01:58
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
Thorn Harvestar wrote...
I like the cut of your jib, OP.
Why, thank you lol. :happy:
#144
Guest_alleyd_*
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 09:07
Guest_alleyd_*
Guest_alleyd_*
-
- Guests
I equate Indoctrination as possibly being a combination of psychological manipulation, mental illness and an effect similar to narcotic addiction. Not that I'm saying there's a narcotic element, but like powerful opiate addiction, indoc can have a subtle effect on the mind and body of the person. It's a pleasure principal of psychological manipulation. I read that one of the driving elements in human psychology is the pursuit of pleasure. What if the long term method of indoctrination made subtle manipulation of the pleasure principal in brain chemistry?
With opiate addiction the process of addiction can be very subtle. Most addicts aren't aware of their dependence and psychological addiction until the drug has almost total control of them. Then the drive to feed the addiction becomes imperative. Also most addicts now face mental health issues as essentially their ego is held prisoner by an outside influence and the realisation can create severe mental trauma and depression (TIM's and Sarens Suicides, maybe???)
Psychological manipulation and mental illness are 2 other strings to indocs bow. Hypnotic suggestion through eg infrasound, electrical or chemical stimulation and suggestion can have a very dramatic effect on the ego and behaviour of the person affected. Also they may have no recollection at all of being manipulated and these open pathways into the psyche can be repeatedly manipulated.
For many who may be familiar with BiPolar mental illness or manic depression will bee aware of the buzz, extra energy and feeling of empowerment that the manic side of the illness can bring. The brain sometimes offers a reward in pleasure that is opposite to depression. It can be caused by chemical imbalances and can effect the brains pleasure centres. I read that one of the driving elements in human psychology is the pursuit of pleasure. What if the long term method of indoctrination made subtle manipulation of the pleasure principal in brain chemistry?
A combination of these effects and the hidden realisation to their impact could in some way explain IT and how strong beings like Saren, Shepard, TIM and others could be silently manipulated. Also explain the sudden despair at the heart of their realisation that they are or have been indoctrinated.
So maybe the ending is the manifestation of IT. Shepards weakened state, combat and emotional stress and progressive mental collapse. All combined with an amplified signal froma massive reaper device.
Shepards, confusion, distress, hallucinations and mental impairment all manifested on screen in the final episode. The cut scenes signs of Shepard's guilt and despair. the 3 choices and incomplete rationale of the catalyst all part of their manipulation. The galaxy cutscenes all signs of sense of failure and guilt. The Normandy crash the feeling of personal failure to the people s/he cares about the most.
With opiate addiction the process of addiction can be very subtle. Most addicts aren't aware of their dependence and psychological addiction until the drug has almost total control of them. Then the drive to feed the addiction becomes imperative. Also most addicts now face mental health issues as essentially their ego is held prisoner by an outside influence and the realisation can create severe mental trauma and depression (TIM's and Sarens Suicides, maybe???)
Psychological manipulation and mental illness are 2 other strings to indocs bow. Hypnotic suggestion through eg infrasound, electrical or chemical stimulation and suggestion can have a very dramatic effect on the ego and behaviour of the person affected. Also they may have no recollection at all of being manipulated and these open pathways into the psyche can be repeatedly manipulated.
For many who may be familiar with BiPolar mental illness or manic depression will bee aware of the buzz, extra energy and feeling of empowerment that the manic side of the illness can bring. The brain sometimes offers a reward in pleasure that is opposite to depression. It can be caused by chemical imbalances and can effect the brains pleasure centres. I read that one of the driving elements in human psychology is the pursuit of pleasure. What if the long term method of indoctrination made subtle manipulation of the pleasure principal in brain chemistry?
A combination of these effects and the hidden realisation to their impact could in some way explain IT and how strong beings like Saren, Shepard, TIM and others could be silently manipulated. Also explain the sudden despair at the heart of their realisation that they are or have been indoctrinated.
So maybe the ending is the manifestation of IT. Shepards weakened state, combat and emotional stress and progressive mental collapse. All combined with an amplified signal froma massive reaper device.
Shepards, confusion, distress, hallucinations and mental impairment all manifested on screen in the final episode. The cut scenes signs of Shepard's guilt and despair. the 3 choices and incomplete rationale of the catalyst all part of their manipulation. The galaxy cutscenes all signs of sense of failure and guilt. The Normandy crash the feeling of personal failure to the people s/he cares about the most.
Modifié par alleyd, 08 mai 2012 - 10:55 .
#145
Posté 09 mai 2012 - 04:09
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
alleyd wrote...
I equate Indoctrination as possibly being a combination of psychological manipulation, mental illness and an effect similar to narcotic addiction. Not that I'm saying there's a narcotic element, but like powerful opiate addiction, indoc can have a subtle effect on the mind and body of the person. It's a pleasure principal of psychological manipulation. I read that one of the driving elements in human psychology is the pursuit of pleasure. What if the long term method of indoctrination made subtle manipulation of the pleasure principal in brain chemistry?
With opiate addiction the process of addiction can be very subtle. Most addicts aren't aware of their dependence and psychological addiction until the drug has almost total control of them. Then the drive to feed the addiction becomes imperative. Also most addicts now face mental health issues as essentially their ego is held prisoner by an outside influence and the realisation can create severe mental trauma and depression (TIM's and Sarens Suicides, maybe???)
Psychological manipulation and mental illness are 2 other strings to indocs bow. Hypnotic suggestion through eg infrasound, electrical or chemical stimulation and suggestion can have a very dramatic effect on the ego and behaviour of the person affected. Also they may have no recollection at all of being manipulated and these open pathways into the psyche can be repeatedly manipulated.
For many who may be familiar with BiPolar mental illness or manic depression will bee aware of the buzz, extra energy and feeling of empowerment that the manic side of the illness can bring. The brain sometimes offers a reward in pleasure that is opposite to depression. It can be caused by chemical imbalances and can effect the brains pleasure centres. I read that one of the driving elements in human psychology is the pursuit of pleasure. What if the long term method of indoctrination made subtle manipulation of the pleasure principal in brain chemistry?
A combination of these effects and the hidden realisation to their impact could in some way explain IT and how strong beings like Saren, Shepard, TIM and others could be silently manipulated. Also explain the sudden despair at the heart of their realisation that they are or have been indoctrinated.
So maybe the ending is the manifestation of IT. Shepards weakened state, combat and emotional stress and progressive mental collapse. All combined with an amplified signal froma massive reaper device.
Shepards, confusion, distress, hallucinations and mental impairment all manifested on screen in the final episode. The cut scenes signs of Shepard's guilt and despair. the 3 choices and incomplete rationale of the catalyst all part of their manipulation. The galaxy cutscenes all signs of sense of failure and guilt. The Normandy crash the feeling of personal failure to the people s/he cares about the most.
I definitely love this as a explanation for the subtleness of indoctrination. Thanks for this, I'm gonig to see how I can add this to the main post to help explain indoctrination better. I'm guessing the pleasure part of indoctrination is the victim thinking they are opposing or "stopping" the Reapers, right? Thinking they are actually doing something to help organics (like TIM and Saren) but do not realize what they are actually doing. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going to work on adding this to the main post, but also try to relate everything you're saying more closely to ME.
Do you believe the end cutscenes are still part of Shepard mind though? What do you think of the destroy ending being the only one that isn't a complete indoc attempt? I think Shepards indoc may be one of the most difficult to explain considering he is kind of a "moral rock" when it comes to things about the Reapers, because regardless of Shepards alignment "destroying the Reapers" was always the goal.
I don't believe the entire end sequence was an indoc attempt, I think they were already in his head like I said in the main post, same with Anderson, it was just a matter of finding that little piece of Shepards mind that would possibly turn him over without him realizing what's really controlling him, like you mentioned. In this case it was the boy I believe, despite the boy being an element only introduced to Shepard in ME3. What do you think?
#146
Posté 10 mai 2012 - 01:45
LordRaptor
-
- Members
- 489 messages
I want to apologize for promising to provide feedback on your thread and failing to do so, so far. I have found I have hit a wall on my desire to speculate, and am trying to reinvigorate myself. ME3 is swiftly losing steam with me and I am trying to fight it off. I will say I took the time to read your thread and I have comments I just...find it difficult currently to sit and type them all out because negativity and hopelessness are setting in. Give me time, I will come up with something to motivate myself again...I hope...
#147
Posté 10 mai 2012 - 07:00
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
JustinElenbaas wrote...
I want to apologize for promising to provide feedback on your thread and failing to do so, so far. I have found I have hit a wall on my desire to speculate, and am trying to reinvigorate myself. ME3 is swiftly losing steam with me and I am trying to fight it off. I will say I took the time to read your thread and I have comments I just...find it difficult currently to sit and type them all out because negativity and hopelessness are setting in. Give me time, I will come up with something to motivate myself again...I hope...
No worries. I know that feel bro.
I'm also currently just losing the desire to speculate about any of this bull**** right now. Just waiting for that damn EC DLC to confirm or deny any of our speculation, honestly if the EC DLC even dares to create even more speculation I'll snap all my ME discs in half and burn them lol. EC must either deliver a solid "yes" or "no" answer to our speculation or else it's over for me and the ME franchise.
Modifié par Orange Tee, 10 mai 2012 - 07:01 .
#148
Posté 12 mai 2012 - 11:03
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
Just made yet another large update to this. Helping breakdown indoctrination a bit better with the help of BSN user alleyd's post above. Tell me what you think people!
#149
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 01:25
Wabajakka
-
- Members
- 1 244 messages
Givin this bad boy a bump from pg 15.
#150
Posté 15 mai 2012 - 01:56
kyleshuey
-
- Members
- 198 messages
I read this whole post and I truely hope this is what happens.
