255 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Butane9000 wrote...

Is a yes or no answer so terrible for Bioware to utter that you have to resort to political work around language?

Chillax, he's not part of the ME team.

[MadCat221]

Optimystic_X wrote...

If the Ward arms still have their mass effect barriers as Weekes says, there's no reason they'd fall to earth. After all, the derelict reaper had mass effect fields that kept it in orbit for millions of years.

So the say... 1.2 billion Ward Arm is now 500 million tons instead?

The dead Reaper also had millions of years to settle into a sort of "orbit" in the brown dwarf.  I doubt that's where it was when it got pegged by the BFG  The Space Magic Explosion quite visibly sends the arms flying off.

Modifié par MadCat221, 12 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[OhoniX]

"Progress is slow, but subject shows signs of recovery. Major organs are again functional and there are signs of rudimentary neurological activity. In an effort to accelerate the process, we've moved from simple organic reconstruction of the subject to bio-synthetic fusion. Initial results show promise."

Source: ME2 Tutorial, Lazarus Station

The two main takeaways from that:

1) You were alive again before they inserted any synthetics into you (otherwise your major organs would not be "functional.")

2) The only reason they did it was to get you awake faster, not because you wouldn't be alive without them. Again, if your organs would absolutely fail without the synthetics, they wouldn't have been functional to begin with.

Yes, but once they put them in, catastrophically removing them could still be deadly, especially given that you're already half-dead before that (with what appear to be third, or at least second degree burns, significant bruising, and a puncture wound to the abdomen). I mean, maybe that's survivable, but it easily might not be.

[WindOverTuchanka]

MadCat221 wrote...

Kanon777 wrote...

This is not true, according to the PAX panel and Patrick Weekes,  everyone plot important on the citadel is still alive

As I said before, them "saying so" is the only thing in supporting "they live"; everything else contradicts that in all but the Blue Space Magic ending.  The Presidium, the structural core of the Citadel (where all the hub levels are located keep in mind) goes kablooie, and odds are at least one of the now broken-off Ward arms would fall to Earth, ruining any chance of rebuilding Earth in the process too.  So unless they replace that bit of the ending movies... they're dead.  As well as Earth.

In that same interview, Weekes said that they don't always see eye to eye with artistic department. So if the writer says they survived, they probably survived, and the artistic depiction of the explosion was somewhat exaggerated. 

Well, artistic blunders happen. As far as retcons are concerned, it's the writers who are responsible for any "Word of God" statements, not the people in charge of the visuals.

[Eudaemonium]

HTTP 404 wrote...

when I chose the destroy ending and with a high ems, I was hoping the geth would not be destroyed. The other options look like worse choices in that in one, you are risking the entire galaxy on the hopes you can control the reapers after you die!  and in the other, you are forcing everyone in the galaxy to be synthetic!  how is that more justified than picking destroy?  especially when there is a chance the geth won't die with the reaper upgrades.  At worst, the geth die but the reapers die.  Saving the rest of the galaxy and ending the cycles.  oh yeah, I did I mention: The reapers die!  How much risk are those taking the other options in keeping the reapers alive?  oops my bad everyone, the reapers are still gonna reap us?

When picking the destroy ending and having a high ems, shepard lives in the end.  this already contradicts what the star child said that shepard would die if picking destroy because he is part synthetic.

This kinda comes back to the point CGG was making about hitting a big button with 'Genocide' on it and going 'meh. It probably doesn't do what it say.' I'll be honest: I picked destroy. In doing so I killed an entire race of people I had been fervently working to save pretty much since I first met Legion in ME2. Even if I actually didn't, I made the choice as if I did. I also chose it on the assumption that Shepard would die. In fact, she did----because my EMS was not high enough. I did it because I wanted the galaxy to be free of the Reapers, forever, and this was the only way to ensure that.

This is what OhoniX meant about making the choice 'blind'. In that Shepard should always have to make the choice as if the geth would all die, even if they don't. Obviously, once EC comes out everyone will decide what the 'best ending' is. In my game, I made the decision to sacrifice Shepard, and EDI, and the geth, in order to permanently end the Reaper threat, because I didn't trust the potential repercussions of the other endings.

[PsyrenY]

OhoniX wrote...

Yes, but once they put them in, catastrophically removing them could still be deadly, especially given that you're already half-dead before that (with what appear to be third, or at least second degree burns, significant bruising, and a puncture wound to the abdomen). I mean, maybe that's survivable, but it easily might not be.

It very clearly is survivable, if you have enough EMS. My quote from ME2 only needs to show that such would be possible, which it does.

[Avissel]

Optimystic_X wrote...

But if Destroy really wiped the Geth out, the next AI race to come along would be understandably distrusting after hearing stories about the annihilation of the Geth.

Well yeah, but I meant in the context of "if Destroy didn't kill the geth"

If true then Destroy with high EMS really does become the "Best" ending to me. SHepard lives, the Reapers die, and you get peace between Synthetics and Organics without having to resort to forcing the galaxy into some weird hybridization stuff.

[PsyrenY]

MadCat221 wrote...

The dead Reaper also had millions of years to settle into a sort of "orbit" in the brown dwarf.  I doubt that's where it was when it got pegged by the BFG  The Space Magic Explosion quite visibly sends the arms flying off.

But while it was "settling," it didn't get sucked into the proto-star either. And a brown dwarf  has much higher gravitational pull than earth, being several times the size of Jupiter.

[PsyrenY]

Indeed, if Destroy didn't kill the Geth after all, there's no reason not to pick it.

Which is unfortunate because it makes the other two endings cease to be interesting choices.

Avissel wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

But if Destroy really wiped the Geth out, the next AI race to come along would be understandably distrusting after hearing stories about the annihilation of the Geth.

Well yeah, but I meant in the context of "if Destroy didn't kill the geth"

If true then Destroy with high EMS really does become the "Best" ending to me. SHepard lives, the Reapers die, and you get peace between Synthetics and Organics without having to resort to forcing the galaxy into some weird hybridization stuff.

[Laurencio]

I imagined it would destroy all technology, period. That's far worse than having an enemy from the past two games suddenly drop dead. After ME1, and Legion dying, I don't care about the Geth =/

Modifié par Laurencio, 12 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[TreguardD]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't think the destroy ending is supposed to fix the problem of synthetics wiping out all organics.

What problem?

The problem the Star Kid watched too much of the new Battlestar Galactica?

AI is a Crapshoot. Just like Organic life.

[Avissel]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Indeed, if Destroy didn't kill the Geth after all, there's no reason not to pick it.

Which is unfortunate because it makes the other two endings cease to be interesting choices.

They would still be interesting choices, because the Geth surviveing should be tied to Shepard surviving. If the Catalyst was right and it kills you, then he was right and it kills them too.

This way the other choices remains valid but there is a reward for people who sought out a higher EMS score.

[Eudaemonium]

Avissel wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Indeed, if Destroy didn't kill the Geth after all, there's no reason not to pick it.

Which is unfortunate because it makes the other two endings cease to be interesting choices.

They would still be interesting choices, because the Geth surviveing should be tied to Shepard surviving. If the Catalyst was right and it kills you, then he was right and it kills them too.

This way the other choices remains valid but there is a reward for people who sought out a higher EMS score.

Especially considering that its impossible to get the score without MP at the moment (or the Datapad/Infiltrator apps). Even later once they release SP DLC that gets you extra resources, it'll probably be the maximum you can get normally.

[Shallyah]

The way I understand it, the Destroy Ending returns the Galaxy to the way it was before Reapers existed. You basically deny the Catalyst's solution, and now it's up to the races of the Galaxy to prove whether the galactic civilization of this cycle is prepared to thrive without leading to eventual total chaos and destruction. It's telling the godchild "We do not need you or your Reapers, no matter how hard you try to persuade me. Begone, forever."

The Catalyst sought this solution in times millions of years ago. Perhaps back then, his solution was needed, and perhaps he was right. He says the pattern repeats itself, but he does not give this cycle the chance to prove itself. He basically does not trust organic civilizations anymore and stablished an automated maintenance system every 50,000 years, without even caring to really checks the state of the Galaxy before it happens. But during all the trilogy you've been proving time after time that you can succeed against all odds, and that galactic peace and prosperity is possible without the Reapers -- the Geth & Quarian conflict being the prime example of it.

As to why high EMS causes the Destroy shockwave have more focused effects on Reapers than on everything else, it can also be explaiend to some extent in that if you had a very high military force, the Crucible could probably be escorted and attached to the Citadel without a single scratch. I'd imagine the Reapers wouldn't allow the weapon of their definitve destruction to just stroll by and shoot them in the face without opposition. The better EMS, the better escort the Crucible can get to work in optimal conditions, as well as the better scientists and research to make it work flawlessly to target only the Reapers and nothing else.

Modifié par Shallyah, 12 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[OhoniX]

This is what OhoniX meant about making the choice 'blind'. In that Shepard should always have to make the choice as if the geth would all die, even if they don't. Obviously, once EC comes out everyone will decide what the 'best ending' is. In my game, I made the decision to sacrifice Shepard, and EDI, and the geth, in order to permanently end the Reaper threat, because I didn't trust the potential repercussions of the other endings.

Yeah, from a moralistic perspective, if you pull that trigger you can't do it on the basis that you think they'll survive anyways. Morally you have to be fully prepared that they'll all die. It's like if someone gives you a gun and tells you to kill some innocent stranger or he'll kill your family, you have to weigh your options and decide whether or not you would do that as if it's all true, and even if it turns out that the gun was filled with blanks and pulling the trigger did not kill the guy, morally there is no difference than if it had.

[Phydeaux314]

Shall has my take on it, as well - when you pick Destroy, your EMS dictates how "precise" the destruction is. Very precise? You only take out the Reapers and their creations. Very imprecise? Well, you saw what happened to earth...

I see the destruction ending as a proper continuation of what Shepard - both Paragon and Renegade - has been saying the whole time: "We may fail, we may screw it all up in the end, but if we do so, it'll be our responsibility." Renegade Shepard would likely just blow up synthetic life and call it day, while Paragon Shepard would probably say "Hey, wait, no, I don't think that conflict between synthetic life and its creator is inevitable."

That's sort of what bugs me about the ending, actually - there isn't an option to tell Starchild that you think it's possible for there to be peace between creator and created. Hell, I showed up on Earth with both the Geth and the Quarian fleets. Why the hell can't I mention that to this entity telling me that there's no possibility of peace between the two? I mean, hello, counterexample sitting right there!

[Shallyah]

OhoniX wrote...

Yeah, from a moralistic perspective, if you pull that trigger you can't do it on the basis that you think they'll survive anyways. Morally you have to be fully prepared that they'll all die. It's like if someone gives you a gun and tells you to kill some innocent stranger or he'll kill your family, you have to weigh your options and decide whether or not you would do that as if it's all true, and even if it turns out that the gun was filled with blanks and pulling the trigger did not kill the guy, morally there is no difference than if it had.

This is true, but then people that are against Destroy ending are metagaming the fact that Shepard survives, while assuming the Geth die. When I chose Destroy I was convinced that Shepard was sacrificing himself for the Greater Good, so the Reapers would cease to exist, once and for all. Shepard can live, and now we know that, but I find disgusting trying to send Destroy-enders into guilt trips because Shepard survived, while assuming that the Geth died.

Either you judge Destroy by the presumption that Shepard and the Geth will die, or you judge Destroy with the metagamed knowledge that Shepard lives and the Geth then, probably lived too. You can't just cherry pick the most immoral combination of factors to base your points on.

I, however, find no self-sacrifice in the Control option, where you are basically told that you will become a God and have at your disposal a billion years old army stronger than anything the Galaxy has ever witnessed. I've said it in other threads. If I could care to play a renegade Shepard, picking control ending seems like a no-brainer.

Modifié par Shallyah, 12 avril 2012 - 04:06 .

[PsyrenY]

Shallyah wrote...

As to why high EMS causes the Destroy shockwave have more focused effects on Reapers than on everything else, it can also be explaiend to some extent in that if you had a very high military force, the Crucible could probably be escorted and attached to the Citadel without a single scratch. I'd imagine the Reapers wouldn't allow the weapon of their definitve destruction to just stroll by and shoot them in the face without opposition. The better EMS, the better escort the Crucible can get to work in optimal conditions, as well as the better scientists and research to make it work flawlessly to target only the Reapers and nothing else.

There are other explanations too:

- Higher EMS could mean the Reapers face more opposition, so a weaker blast is needed from the Crucible to take them out. (Thus the planet/forces/Shepard take less damage.)

- The Crucible itself could sustain less damage (stronger Shield fleet) and so any inhibitors or regulators that limit the energy output of the Destroy blast are not damaged.

Avissel wrote...

They would still be interesting choices, because the Geth surviveing should be tied to Shepard surviving. If the Catalyst was right and it kills you, then he was right and it kills them too.

This way the other choices remains valid but there is a reward for people who sought out a higher EMS score.

But that means Shepard dying is simply "you didn't play the game well enough" similar to losing people in the SM in ME2, as opposed to a true alternative option.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 12 avril 2012 - 04:08 .

[Aurvant]

How about this:

If the Catalyst is so damn sure that "the created will always rebel against the creator" then why, in the last few million years, didn't his reapers turn against him?

Hell, that would have made for a much better twist ending than his stupid logic. Have it revealed that the Reapers were ONCE a solution, but theyve gone rogue and began harvesting organic life in order to increase or sustain their numbers. Then the Catalyst needs you to use the crucible to stop them from themselves or something.

But still, my initial question still stands. Why didn't the created reapers rebel against their creator if that is ALWAYS inevitable?

[Eudaemonium]

Shallyah wrote...

I, however, find no self-sacrifice in the Control option, where you are basically told that you will become a God and have at your disposal a billion years old army stronger than anything the Galaxy has ever witnessed. I've said it in other threads. If I could care to play a renegade Shepard, picking control ending seems like a no-brainer.

This is one reason I think the P/R colours are reversed in that final decision. For example: If you choose destroy, you are essentially entrusting the galaxy to the nature of organic life, believing that the 'chaos' the Catalyst speaks of will never arise. The naively trusting in the goodness, hoensty or 'soul' of people tends to be a very Paragon action, and this is essentially what you are doing by picking destroy. Shepard is saying 'Everything will be alright without your solution.'

By choosing Control, not only does Shepard gain control of the greatest army in the history of the galaxy, as you rightly point out, it also leaves open the possibility that should the Catalyst's 'chaos' ever actually come to pass, Shepard could just restart the cycle.

Aurvant wrote...

How about this:

If the Catalyst is so damn sure that "the created will always rebel against the creator" then why, in the last few million years, didn't his reapers turn against him?

Hell, that would have made for a much better twist ending than his stupid logic. Have it revealed that the Reapers were ONCE a solution, but theyve gone rogue and began harvesting organic life in order to increase or sustain their numbers. Then the Catalyst needs you to use the crucible to stop them from themselves or something.

But still, my initial question still stands. Why didn't the created reapers rebel against their creator if that is ALWAYS inevitable?

My (admittedly cheap) possible answer to this is that the Catalyst is speaking purely in terms of synthetic and organic life. The Reapers are not pure synthetic life, like the geth, they are 'transcended flesh' (in Legion's words). Because they possess what are essentially gestalt organic minds, it is plausible the Reapers agree with the Catalyst's solution and continue to do its bidding for the greater good (in their minds). The Reaper/Catalyst relationship is thus not governed by the same rules it applies to other synthetic/organic relations. That's the best I can think of, though.

Your scenario where the Reapers are rogue is more interesting, though. It would also leave the Reapers' motives unknown while informing you of their origin, thus preserving part of their mystery.

Modifié par Eudaemonium, 12 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[YNation913]

Phydeaux314 wrote...

That's sort of what bugs me about the ending, actually - there isn't an option to tell Starchild that you think it's possible for there to be peace between creator and created. Hell, I showed up on Earth with both the Geth and the Quarian fleets. Why the hell can't I mention that to this entity telling me that there's no possibility of peace between the two? I mean, hello, counterexample sitting right there!

You can't mention it because both starkid and Shepard believe that destroying the Reapers will destroy synthetic life. Even if this is false, they both still think that's what'll happen if Shepard chooses destroy. So the fact that you proved that synthetics can work with organics earlier doesn't matter, because based on what they know it's only a temporary alliance if Shepard chooses destroy. In other words, based on empirical evidence, the best  thing that could happen in future cycles is a temporary alliance before once side ultimately kills the other.

[OhoniX]

I, however, find no self-sacrifice in the Control option, where you are basically told that you will become a God and have at your disposal a billion years old army stronger than anything the Galaxy has ever witnessed. I've said it in other threads. If I could care to play a renegade Shepard, picking control ending seems like a no-brainer.

To be fair though, you still die in the Control ending. I mean you don't become like a Greek god, incarnate in flesh as well as powerful in spirit, you just become a disembodied voice in the Reaper hivemind. I also don't believe you have total remote control over every reaper, so much as that you can just influence their behavior and chill them out. I didn't view the Control ending as offering any strong personal perks, although if Synthesis wasn't an option that's what I would have gone with. Really the only strong point against the Control ending, assuming you were prepared to sacrifice yourself, was that Illusive Man wanted it, so it had to be suspect.

- The Crucible itself could sustain less damage (stronger Shield fleet) and so any inhibitors or regulators that limit the energy output of the Destroy blast are not damaged.

I favor this one. I think a large chunk of the DLC should be devoted to a "flashback" to the action in space while Shepard is doing her thing. It should show all the different units you have actively defending and docking the Crucible, and whenever an appropriate unit isn't there, bits get blasted off the thing.

If the Catalyst is so damn sure that "the created will always rebel against the creator" then why, in the last few million years, didn't his reapers turn against him?

The Catalyst is as much a creation as the Reapers, my impression was that they both turned on their creators, and they were the first cycle.

[Alamar2078]

With the Catalyst either lieing or not knowing for sure what happens with Destroy if the Geth & EDI live theres not REALLy any guarantee that all the Reapers die.

The same uncertainty applies to Control & Synthesis IMHO.

There's no reason to trust ANYTHING god-child says

[The Smitchens]

I personally like the idea that the catalyst is just plain lying about things in order to get its way.

[Brother Takka]

I didn't trust a word the kid said. In my end. The Geth are alive and well. Everyone on the citadel is brown bread.