255 réponses à ce sujet

[Salfin]

I think the condradictions are there to allow people to make their own decisions about what happens.

[MadCat221]

Rabid Rooster wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

I am curious about whather or not the destroy ending really kills the geth. We know that shooting the tube will 'destroy all synthetics', but what exactly does that mean? Are we destroying all synthetic bodies? If that's the case, then the geth aren't really dead. The bodies might die, but millions of geth programs live on in servers across Rannoch and inside their warships. Same for EDI, who exists in the Normandy more than it does in Eva's body.
Are we actually wiping out the geth programs themselves? If that's true then we are truly destroying the geth (and EDI), but the technical details of who that would work are limited solely to the realm of magic- not space magic, mind, but just regular warlock magic.
Thoughts on the topic? Would the destroy variation on the ending be more palatable if we all knew that picking that option wouldn't destroy the geth entirely, but rather would just seriously wound some and kill many others?

I think it's possible, but mostly due to the perceived effects of the Crucible's pulse.  From what we have at the end, we can deduce that what the Crucible affects is related to the EMS we have at the end of the game.  Very low, buildings and people are eradicated, a bit higher and people are spared but the buildings still go kaput, while it seems only the Reapers are affected in the most optimal ending.  Furthermore, Shepard's survival is also dependent on it.

I think it's plausible that with a higher EMS, the pulse targets the reapers more specifically and may spare the Geth.

This just made me wonder something, why in the hell would the number and strength of my military forces change change the effect of what the space magic errr energy does? Just wondering, doesnt make any sense like the ending.

As I understand it... more meat the Reapers would have to grind through to get to the Crucible.

And also more resources and brain trust thrown into building the thing to begin with (IE: it's more refined by push-off time).

[shepard1038]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

trembli0s wrote...

So we simply have more contradictions then  : 

The most distinguishing feature of quarian biology is their weak immune system, compounded by centuries of living in sterile environments. As a result, all quarians by necessity dress in highly sophisticated enviro-suits, to protect them from disease or infection if they are injured. Their suits can be compartmentalized in the event of a tear or similar breach to prevent the spread of contaminants (similar to a ship sealing off bulkheads in the event of a hull breach). Along with their suits quarians also have extensive cybernetic augmentations integrated into their bodies. 

Ah, but is a person with cybernetics a synthetic life form?

Good point but that doesn't change the fact that the Guardian said that Shepard was partially synthetic.

[HTTP 404]

Arik7 wrote...

[It is an example of effective writing / game design for your "Effective Military Strength" to affect the nature of the crucible explosion?  This was never explained.  We did not see the crucible being damaged.  We did not see our assets in action.   But who cares about choices and consequences in a shooter, am I right?

we spent the whole game getting a high "effective military strength" numbers up.  what did you think it would do for the ending? nothing? 

I assume the dlc will "show" you want you want. 

Modifié par HTTP 404, 12 avril 2012 - 06:09 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Rabid Rooster wrote...

This just made me wonder something, why in the hell would the number and strength of my military forces change change the effect of what the space magic errr energy does? Just wondering, doesnt make any sense like the ending.

This is a fair question for sure.  When I went through the game I was definitely more interested in the big guns I was recruiting, rather than the scientists and engineers.  However, based on the end result, the EMS definitely affects what impact the pulse has.

My conclusion is that the EMS score more reflects the ability to engineer and protect the Crucible rather than our direct ability to face Reapers in conflict.

I don't think this is made as clear as it should have been though, unfortunately.  It's also possible the team had plans to utilize the military assets as well, but at that point I'm just starting to make guesses myself.

[DJBare]

Nobody likes being fooled or lied too, it's never easy to admit you got taken,
Did the catalyst lie?, well that's the question you have to answer.

[Arik7]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

[It is an example of effective writing / game design for your "Effective Military Strength" to affect the nature of the crucible explosion?  This was never explained.  We did not see the crucible being damaged.  We did not see our assets in action.   But who cares about choices and consequences in a shooter, am I right?

we spent the whole game getting a high "effective military strength" numbers up.  what did you think it would do for the ending? nothing? 

If we did not see the EMS scenarios / youtube vids, we would have no way of knowing how our assets affected anything.  It's simply not shown in the game.

[Filanwizard]

I like to think the majority of Geth survived but any programs in the mobile platforms where destroyed.

This is also why its possible to think of EDI surviving, unless the destroy pulse is some kind of super hard drive wiping space magic EDI would still be in the non-volatile storage of Normandy's servers. as would any geth programs in fixed servers.

Reapers on the other hand are likely stuck in their ship platforms and if those systems are disrupted both the organic and software dies.

[Allan Schumacher]

shepard1038 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ah, but is a person with cybernetics a synthetic life form?

Good point but that doesn't change the fact that the Guardian said that Shepard was partially synthetic.

This is true, but it's also possible for Shepard to survive.

[trembli0s]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

trembli0s wrote...

So we simply have more contradictions then  : 

The most distinguishing feature of quarian biology is their weak immune system, compounded by centuries of living in sterile environments. As a result, all quarians by necessity dress in highly sophisticated enviro-suits, to protect them from disease or infection if they are injured. Their suits can be compartmentalized in the event of a tear or similar breach to prevent the spread of contaminants (similar to a ship sealing off bulkheads in the event of a hull breach). Along with their suits quarians also have extensive cybernetic augmentations integrated into their bodies. 

Ah, but is a person with cybernetics a synthetic life form?

Normally I would agree with you but the Catalyst point-blank pretty much says that Shepard is dying due to his implants.

Now, if you guys want to retcon the ending so that Shepard doesn't die if he chooses control..... :innocent:

[PsyrenY]

trembli0s wrote...

Normally I would agree with you but the Catalyst point-blank pretty much says that Shepard is dying due to his implants.

He still has those same implants if he doesn't die, so clearly just having implants is not enough to kill you by itself.

[acidic-ph0]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If the starkid is lying, than he is doing it so unbelievably badly.

You're saying "Oh, he's obviously lying about the fact that I'm going to commit Genocide, but he's not lying about, say, which device has which effect, or any of the other billion things I'm taking on faith from him. The only thing he's lying about is killing the Geth, everything else I fully believe."

I don't think it's so much whether or not the Catalyst is lying, but rather whether or not the Catalyst is all knowing. Lying is an attempt to deceive, but the Catalyst could simply just be wrong.

Come to think about it... been watching the Matrix trilogy again to see some of the influencing scenes that Bioware refferenced, and the Architect scene comes to mind imediately. The architect is very similar if not the SAME type of antagonist as the Starchild. When the architect gives Neo his 2 options he is not entirely honest. Firstly from being smug and believing that he knows the answer to everything, and secondly he underestimates Neos ability to change fate. Neo chose to save trinity and "doom humanity" but in the end he was able to save both, so perhaps like you've mentioned, Shep could do the same thing with high enough EMS and prove the catalyst to be wrong.

Of course this is MAJOR supposition with no ingame evidence to really support this claim... Although I do find your EMS scaling logic to make sense. Perhaps the more EMS devoted to the creation of the crucible would increase its specificity in what it destroys. 

Architect scene here --> 
 (with subtitles too for convenience XD)

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 12 avril 2012 - 06:17 .

[Allan Schumacher]

trembli0s wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ah, but is a person with cybernetics a synthetic life form?

Normally I would agree with you but the Catalyst point-blank pretty much says that Shepard is dying due to his implants.

Now, if you guys want to retcon the ending so that Shepard doesn't die if he chooses control..... :innocent:

It's already possible for Shepard to survive though.  The Catalyst was wrong.

[MentalKase]

• Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rabid Rooster wrote...

This just made me wonder something, why in the hell would the number and strength of my military forces change change the effect of what the space magic errr energy does? Just wondering, doesnt make any sense like the ending.

This is a fair question for sure.  When I went through the game I was definitely more interested in the big guns I was recruiting, rather than the scientists and engineers.  However, based on the end result, the EMS definitely affects what impact the pulse has.

My conclusion is that the EMS score more reflects the ability to engineer and protect the Crucible rather than our direct ability to face Reapers in conflict.

I don't think this is made as clear as it should have been though, unfortunately.  It's also possible the team had plans to utilize the military assets as well, but at that point I'm just starting to make guesses myself.

I have also found the EMS very confusing and doesn't make much sense to me, but you have had the best explination that I have read.

Kudos.

[trembli0s]

Optimystic_X wrote...

trembli0s wrote...

Normally I would agree with you but the Catalyst point-blank pretty much says that Shepard is dying due to his implants.

He still has those same implants if he doesn't die, so clearly just having implants is not enough to kill you by itself.

Unfortunately, we don't really have clarification on if Shepard lives. We have a vague ending scene that IMPLIES he might but I didn't expect an ending that was going to have me scrounging around for nitpicky answers.

Here's verbatim what he says: "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, even you are partly synthetic"

That's a REALLY heavy implication that cybernetic implants are fair game for synthetic destructo-beams. While I can see why we would think he's wrong there's nothing that makes me NOT believe that he's not being truthful.

He explains synthesis and we see the results, he explains control and we get the result, now we choose destroy and we're supposed to believe he suddenly becomes a faulty narrator and he's flat-out wrong? 

[DJBare]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I don't think it's so much whether or not the Catalyst is lying, but rather whether or not the Catalyst is all knowing. Lying is an attempt to deceive, but the Catalyst could simply just be wrong.

That's a very good point, but allow me to speculate for a moment(I know, bad word), the crusible is designed in such a fashion that with the destroy choice it only targets reaper tech, the firing solution you might say, the catalyst would be aware of this because the crusible is now attached to the citadel.

[trembli0s]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

trembli0s wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ah, but is a person with cybernetics a synthetic life form?

Normally I would agree with you but the Catalyst point-blank pretty much says that Shepard is dying due to his implants.

Now, if you guys want to retcon the ending so that Shepard doesn't die if he chooses control..... :innocent:

It's already possible for Shepard to survive though.  The Catalyst was wrong.

So then there really is nothing that stops there from being an ending where the Geth and EDI live. If he's a faulty narrator once, there's no reason to think he can't be again. Guess we'll be waiting on clarification but at least it gives me some hope! 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

DJBare wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If the starkid is lying, than he is doing it so unbelievably badly.

Is he?, look at this forum, most posts I've seen have taken his word on face value.

That's because... well... we're really really encouraged to do so by narrative structure, if we want the ending to make any sense at all, for the choices he's offering to feel like they offer any real value.

The Starchild says that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable blah blah blah. This is incorrect on its face, so incorrect that he is obviously either lying or insane. Based on everything else he says, the easy conclusion for me to make is that he's insane, and we're being forced to play a madman's nihilistic game.

This is why the endings feel so baldly unsatisfying: because we have two choices - dismiss the Starchild as ignorant or heavily mislead (thus the very justification for the fact that we're having to make a choice is invalid), or suspend our disbelief and agree that all the choices being offered ARE valid.

Choosing to believe the starchild isn't stupid... in fact, it's what all media trains us to do. I spend all day using handwavium to technobabble the maguffin, without giving it a second thought, because for the sake of emotional engagement in the story I'm suspending my disbelief.

Starkid isn't like Tim: someone we've been conditioned to believe is deceitful and manipulative. He's not like Anderson: someone we've been conditioned to trust. Our conclusions about him can only be based on what our conversation with him looks like... and it looks moronic and insane. He starts out by offering an explanation for his existance that makes little sense, and then says that all our future decisions are based around an idea flatly contradicted by earlier events in the story. If he were merely manipulative and clever, he would have appealed to our own vanity or sense of honor. If he were sane, he would have said a single goddam thing that made sense in that entire conversation. Neither of those things happened.

In the end, the three choices are what they are not because of any necessity of the plot or universe, but because an unreliable madman has arbitrarily and idiotically decided that that is what they must be. If he were merely lyring, rather than being stupid, out-of-touch, and/or insane, he would have given us some explanation that made sense, that engaged us emotionally, that seemed like an OK idea at the time.

If you believe the Starchild is telling the truth, then that allows some people to make the final decision with an open heart and truly believe that they did the right thing based on the information they were given. Most of the people I know who picked green and were happy with it feel this way.

If you believe the Starchild is lying about the genocide thing (and only about that), then it allows you to feel smug and clevery about what you did. Most of the destroy breathers seem to feel this way.

If the Starchild is insane and out-of-touch, then it doesn't matter what the choices he's giving you are. They have little significance beyond colorful explosions, because they weren't based on any actual threat or reality. If he's insane and inaccurate, then we have no good in-game way to judge which choice is better, because they're all based on the flawed reasoning of an idiot madman.

Which leaves me feeling empty inside, but is the best explanation of the complete nonsense the Starchild spouts that I can think of.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[Bill Casey]

Catalyst says all the choices will destroy the Mass Relays, and according to some Tweets and interviews, Control doesn't...

They also shortened the cutscene of the Mass Relay in the high EMS Control ending, so we don't see it exploding...


The Catalyst is also lying about Control...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 12 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[shepard1038]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

shepard1038 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ah, but is a person with cybernetics a synthetic life form?

Good point but that doesn't change the fact that the Guardian said that Shepard was partially synthetic.

This is true, but it's also possible for Shepard to survive.

Thats good because a lot of people who have synthetic implants would have died then.
Also its great to have people who work on Bioware posting and replying to the fans.

Modifié par shepard1038, 12 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[trembli0s]

CulturalGeekGirl kind of hit the nail on the head from the pessimistic side of things.

I'm at least hoping that we can just kind of IGNORE what he says with the end results but I guess we'll see. Sort of similar to how depending on your relationship with Varric you have to take the whole DA2 plot with a grain of salt.

Modifié par trembli0s, 12 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[DJBare]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

DJBare wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If the starkid is lying, than he is doing it so unbelievably badly.

Is he?, look at this forum, most posts I've seen have taken his word on face value.

That's because... well... we're really really encouraged to do so by narrative structure, if we want the ending to make any sense at all, for the choices he's offering to feel like they offer any real value.

Please do not misunderstand, I am not defending the ending, it's because of the ambiguity the ending failed, it left so many people confused, rather than finish with a definitive answer we were given cryptic clues such as EDI stepping off the Normandy after the destroy ending.

[shepard1038]

A question if the destroy ending kills all synthetics why do some people say that if you bring Edi to the catalyst run she survives on the destroy ending and if you don't she doesn't survive, is this a bug or something else???

Modifié par shepard1038, 12 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[Warp92]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


It's already possible for Shepard to survive though.  The Catalyst was wrong.

This.. Its the first thing I thought when I finished the game

on a off note I think bsn needs to be more friendly to mobile devices 

Modifié par Warp92, 12 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Elite Midget]

Yes.

Destroy kills everyone just like all endings. Only Joker, Liara, and your crashed ship are all that's left. Everything else is gone.

Enjoy Mass Effect 3.