If the Omega-4 Relay is one-way like the Conduit, how did the Normandy get back to Termius Space in a matter of weeks? Also, for clarification, I don't remember the Conduit specifying whether all the Relays blew up or if it was just the one's connected to the Galactic Gride. Technically, since the Charon Relay was unactive before humanity branched out beyond Sol, doesn't that mean there might be other unactive Relays (which may not have been affected by the Crucible)?
The Omega 4 Relay: Anomaly or Hint? (Discussion of Post-Relay Technology)
Débuté par
MyChemicalBromance
, avril 12 2012 04:54
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#27
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 06:08
lillitheris
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Excellent post. However:
No, it can't. You can hypothesize that, though
I think a simpler explanation is probably better (explored in my clarification thread in some more detail): the energy dissipates along the way. The first systems are hit hardest, and those further along are mostly OK. You'll also notice that the galaxy map shows the energy beam taking a weird route starting from the end of the spiral arm somewhere rather than Charon. This is obviously just a continuity error, but we can take advantage of that, and further speculate that the first jump from Charon actually goes somewhere other than Arcturus (dark space, even?), and thereby is even further reduced in destruction. Even FTL travel from Sol to nearby systems with relays is then feasible.
There are also some quantum comms on the fleet, so it's possible to first contact folks outside Sol, and come to the conclusion that at least most of the relays still work.
With sufficiently high EMS, you have two advantages: 1. the Crucible fires ‘cleaner’, causing less damage, and 2. the scientists who worked on the Crucible are still mostly alive and among the fleets. This leads to the conclusion that even if Charon is damaged, it can be repaired in some reasonable-ish time. Or, alternatively, they can get the Citadel relay functional.
…All that said, I could just as well plug in your theory to my template and it'd work out…plus sciency stuff is always a bonus
MyChemicalBromance wrote...
The following statement can be inferred:
The Omega Relay does not require a linked partner.
No, it can't. You can hypothesize that, though
I think a simpler explanation is probably better (explored in my clarification thread in some more detail): the energy dissipates along the way. The first systems are hit hardest, and those further along are mostly OK. You'll also notice that the galaxy map shows the energy beam taking a weird route starting from the end of the spiral arm somewhere rather than Charon. This is obviously just a continuity error, but we can take advantage of that, and further speculate that the first jump from Charon actually goes somewhere other than Arcturus (dark space, even?), and thereby is even further reduced in destruction. Even FTL travel from Sol to nearby systems with relays is then feasible.
There are also some quantum comms on the fleet, so it's possible to first contact folks outside Sol, and come to the conclusion that at least most of the relays still work.
With sufficiently high EMS, you have two advantages: 1. the Crucible fires ‘cleaner’, causing less damage, and 2. the scientists who worked on the Crucible are still mostly alive and among the fleets. This leads to the conclusion that even if Charon is damaged, it can be repaired in some reasonable-ish time. Or, alternatively, they can get the Citadel relay functional.
…All that said, I could just as well plug in your theory to my template and it'd work out…plus sciency stuff is always a bonus
Modifié par lillitheris, 12 avril 2012 - 06:10 .
#28
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 06:48
Exeider
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Yeah I have to agree with lillitheris on this one.
Relays work in pairs, there has to be something at the other side to slow you down, or you will drop out of FTL like you hitting a wall.
While Secondary relays can connect to any other secondary relay in its range, its still a one to one connection during your actual transit.
However, the Alpha relay, that is an interesting factoid. using QEC communication between Primaries is plausible, it would explain WHY they could only be used with their twin. However the logic breaks down with secondary relays. Of course, maybe secondary relays communicate via another reason, WHICH would explain their shorter ranges.
-AE
Relays work in pairs, there has to be something at the other side to slow you down, or you will drop out of FTL like you hitting a wall.
While Secondary relays can connect to any other secondary relay in its range, its still a one to one connection during your actual transit.
However, the Alpha relay, that is an interesting factoid. using QEC communication between Primaries is plausible, it would explain WHY they could only be used with their twin. However the logic breaks down with secondary relays. Of course, maybe secondary relays communicate via another reason, WHICH would explain their shorter ranges.
-AE
#29
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 06:52
blooregard
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OP is a boss.
While this makes the endings more bearable there are some issues
1) Unless the Omega 4 relay is a total anomaly it was destroyed when the crucible fired (I don't know about this though so don't beat me to death with this)
2) Even if the Omega 4 relay DID survive its stuck in the Omega Nebula hardly a jump, skip, and a leap from Sol
3) Was the Omega 4 relay purpose built and special so that only it would be needed to get to the center of the galaxy or do all relays work that way
4) How long would it be before a new relay is operational and acts like the Omega 4 relay?
What you said about the IFF though does make sense that it lessens the drift (so you don't get sucked into the black hole) and it allows the ship to find the corridor left behind from the relay. The way I see it is the Reaper IFF or other Reaper technology can use the mass relays in the same way the Omega 4 relay is used in that it doesn't need a corresponding relay. If that's the case that means the Reapers hamper organics even more by restricting us to relay to relay travel (as the receiving relay would have an IFF indicating where the sending relay should stop the corridor) meaning that in theory the reapers can use the Charon relay and end up in say the Century system (the Hawking Eta relay is located elsewhere in the cluster)
While this makes the endings more bearable there are some issues
1) Unless the Omega 4 relay is a total anomaly it was destroyed when the crucible fired (I don't know about this though so don't beat me to death with this)
2) Even if the Omega 4 relay DID survive its stuck in the Omega Nebula hardly a jump, skip, and a leap from Sol
3) Was the Omega 4 relay purpose built and special so that only it would be needed to get to the center of the galaxy or do all relays work that way
4) How long would it be before a new relay is operational and acts like the Omega 4 relay?
What you said about the IFF though does make sense that it lessens the drift (so you don't get sucked into the black hole) and it allows the ship to find the corridor left behind from the relay. The way I see it is the Reaper IFF or other Reaper technology can use the mass relays in the same way the Omega 4 relay is used in that it doesn't need a corresponding relay. If that's the case that means the Reapers hamper organics even more by restricting us to relay to relay travel (as the receiving relay would have an IFF indicating where the sending relay should stop the corridor) meaning that in theory the reapers can use the Charon relay and end up in say the Century system (the Hawking Eta relay is located elsewhere in the cluster)
#30
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 07:02
Hawk227
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Well, you've provided the closest thing to an acceptable reason the Alpha relay went supernova but the rest didn't at the end of ME3. Though, what about the remaining primary relays, wouldn't they have similarly large explosions?
Second, you lost me at Perseus Veil. What does the suicide mission have to do with the Perseus Veil? Are you confusing Perseus Veil--which is indeed Geth space, at the outer edge of Galaxy, somewhere around 50k light years from the core-- With the core itself?
Third, there are a number of reasons you wouldn't see the relay (Minor drift; you exit the relay jump just ahead of it, so its behind the normandy; developer oversight) but the mere fact that the normandy returns in time for ME3 proves there is one there. By my math, traveling 16,000 ly in FTL would take almost 3 years (at 15ly/day). In 6 months (the approximate downtime between ME2 and ME3) the normandy could only travel about 2800 ly.
Second, you lost me at Perseus Veil. What does the suicide mission have to do with the Perseus Veil? Are you confusing Perseus Veil--which is indeed Geth space, at the outer edge of Galaxy, somewhere around 50k light years from the core-- With the core itself?
Third, there are a number of reasons you wouldn't see the relay (Minor drift; you exit the relay jump just ahead of it, so its behind the normandy; developer oversight) but the mere fact that the normandy returns in time for ME3 proves there is one there. By my math, traveling 16,000 ly in FTL would take almost 3 years (at 15ly/day). In 6 months (the approximate downtime between ME2 and ME3) the normandy could only travel about 2800 ly.
#31
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 08:51
Ieldra
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A nice hypothesis, OP, although unlikely IMO. Given the information in the Codex, the cinematics of the SM in ME2 and ME3's "Ignore the lore" approach to the endings, I find it rather more likely that the creators of the endgame sequence didn't bother with showing "inconsequential" details such as a mass relay that's needed to get home.
This could be used to retcon the Codex though. Would be funny to see the explosive debates about that.
This could be used to retcon the Codex though. Would be funny to see the explosive debates about that.
#32
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:01
UrgentArchengel
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Very well thought out thread. I give 5 stars and a thumbs up for awesome reasoning. Here's hoping we get a retake omega DLC after EC. You know, for the Omega 4 relay.
#33
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:22
Ultra Prism
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well extended cut dlc can provide more on mass relay being destroyed ...
#34
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:39
count_4
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And the Citadel isn't linked to the Charon relay. Still the pulse is sent to/through the latter by the former. But maybe instant re-linkage is possible for the Citadel only.The Angry One wrote...
Omega-4 isn't connected to any other relay, logically it shoudn't have been hit by the doom pulse.Banelash wrote...
but they all blew up. Where you gonna find one intact for this to work
Anyway, regarding the OP...
MyChemicalBromance wrote...
The following statement can be inferred:
The Omega Relay does not require a linked partner.
This implies, obviously, that non-linked travel is possible, which begs the question why the Reapers require the Citadel Relay to enter the galaxy from dark space.
The Alpha Relay is able to bridge massive distances, the Omega-4 Relay is, in your assumptions, able to create a tunnel without a partner. Combine the two and you have the perfect attack vector. No warnings, no way to intercept, instant deployment of the Reaper fleets to where they need to be...
Modifié par count_4, 12 avril 2012 - 09:40 .
#35
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:39
inko1nsiderate
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EDIT:
There used to be a longer post here, but I felt it was potentially derailing... I just have one question for the OP:
You do realize that everything you wrote about physics (besides that F=ma) is totally wrong, right?
There used to be a longer post here, but I felt it was potentially derailing... I just have one question for the OP:
You do realize that everything you wrote about physics (besides that F=ma) is totally wrong, right?
Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 12 avril 2012 - 10:12 .
#36
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:50
count_4
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A little OT but does the Codex mention if there has to be a line of sight between two transmitting relays? Thought about this a while ago, cause that might be one explanation why they didn't use the Ilos Conduit the second time around.inko1nsiderate wrote...
The fact that the corridor is virtually mass-free does not explain why there are never collisions in mid-transit: things that are massless still interact.
#37
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 09:59
inko1nsiderate
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count_4 wrote...
A little OT but does the Codex mention if there has to be a line of sight between two transmitting relays? Thought about this a while ago, cause that might be one explanation why they didn't use the Ilos Conduit the second time around.inko1nsiderate wrote...
The fact that the corridor is virtually mass-free does not explain why there are never collisions in mid-transit: things that are massless still interact.
Well, I figured that the Ilos conduit burnt out, and I thought Saren blew up one end of it (hence the frantic countdown)? There probably is some line of sight like issue, but I figured that is why you can have such large drift with conventional Mass Relay protocols: the line of sight needs to only be approximate.
#39
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 10:04
inko1nsiderate
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count_4 wrote...
And the Citadel isn't linked to the Charon relay. Still the pulse is sent to/through the latter by the former. But maybe instant re-linkage is possible for the Citadel only.The Angry One wrote...
Omega-4 isn't connected to any other relay, logically it shoudn't have been hit by the doom pulse.Banelash wrote...
but they all blew up. Where you gonna find one intact for this to work
Anyway, regarding the OP...MyChemicalBromance wrote...
The following statement can be inferred:
The Omega Relay does not require a linked partner.
This implies, obviously, that non-linked travel is possible, which begs the question why the Reapers require the Citadel Relay to enter the galaxy from dark space.
The Alpha Relay is able to bridge massive distances, the Omega-4 Relay is, in your assumptions, able to create a tunnel without a partner. Combine the two and you have the perfect attack vector. No warnings, no way to intercept, instant deployment of the Reaper fleets to where they need to be...
Well wait a moment. How were the Reapers going to use the Citadel as is? I mean, they can't have a relay floating out in space with them to connect the corridor. Clearly the idea of the Citadel right from the start requires it to create the corridor from the galaxy to the Reapers in Dark Space and be a one way corridor. Maybe the reason why they need the Citadel is that the distance they are going is so huge (even compared to the distances the Mass Relays send you) that you need a special relay with monstrous size.
Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 12 avril 2012 - 10:06 .
#40
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 10:04
An English Gamer
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Something you might want to add is the fact that if the technology exists you can bet it is part of the Citadel. This may mean we can assume that the Citadel has the same power as both the Alpha relay and Omega relay in not requiring a linked partner and not being tied to a specific relay. This would make sense as
#1 it is the largest and most important relay for the Reapers.
#2 If there was a partner in dark-space the reapers would not need to activate the Citadel relay as they could just reactivate the partner.
#3 it would allow the Reapers during a normal cycle to instantly travel to any star system without re-opening it's relay.
If this is true then it have massive implications for the control ending as it leaves the Citadel intact, meaning the races may be able to use the Citadel to acces anywhere in the Galaxy by introducing Reaper IFF's.
That is just me speculating but it makes sense.
#1 it is the largest and most important relay for the Reapers.
#2 If there was a partner in dark-space the reapers would not need to activate the Citadel relay as they could just reactivate the partner.
#3 it would allow the Reapers during a normal cycle to instantly travel to any star system without re-opening it's relay.
If this is true then it have massive implications for the control ending as it leaves the Citadel intact, meaning the races may be able to use the Citadel to acces anywhere in the Galaxy by introducing Reaper IFF's.
That is just me speculating but it makes sense.
#41
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 10:18
SandMan2012
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Banelash wrote...
First, nice research.
Second, all relays are dead. If earth relay was still alive at the end, this would be a good explanation for getting everyone back home.
Third, relay explosion kills systems as shown in ME2. The Batarian has no home now.
Fourth, All in all, Massive amount of speculations required from either party. That is not how it should be for any form of narrative. I'm not talking about a little speculation here.
He may have been able to explain away your third point in his OP, also I think people should keep in mind that the Omega 4 relax is NOT linked to the rest of the relays as far as we know. That being said, it could still be intact.
#42
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 10:47
count_4
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Then why not put this relay, that's obviously capable of non-linked transit, out there where the Reapers reside in dark space? Would be safer and easier for them.inko1nsiderate wrote...
Well wait a moment. How were the Reapers going to use the Citadel as is? I mean, they can't have a relay floating out in space with them to connect the corridor. Clearly the idea of the Citadel right from the start requires it to create the corridor from the galaxy to the Reapers in Dark Space and be a one way corridor.
The Alpha Relay is said to be able to send cargo over a distance of roughly 60,000 lightyears. So the Reapers could be 30,000ly out there and still directly jump to the Citadel to take out Galactic Government and deactivate the relay network.inko1nsiderate wrote...
Maybe the reason why they need the Citadel is that the distance they are going is so huge (even compared to the distances the Mass Relays send you) that you need a special relay with monstrous size.
If they actually are further out there, we're back with the first part (Citadel necessary).
It all comes down to: If non-linked transit over massive distance is possible, why don't the Reapers use it from their end?
Modifié par count_4, 12 avril 2012 - 10:49 .
#43
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 10:56
a.m.p
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MyChemicalBromance, finally read that, good catch about the Omega-4. The Normandy apparently going FTL in the middle of the galaxy with all those exploding stars and black holes has bugged me since completing ME2, this could explain it. Though one has to wonder whether it could be the original intention of that cutscene.
So... now I actually want a take back Omega DLC, which among other things mentions sending science teams to study the relay, now that the system is cerberus-free. Would go a long way to set up the whole "No, we didn't torch the universe" thing they seem to be going for now.
Another thing is the Five Kiloparsec Ring mention that I totally forgot about. Going to need to recalibrate my map. As of now Hawking Eta actually lies within 16000 ly of the core.
So... now I actually want a take back Omega DLC, which among other things mentions sending science teams to study the relay, now that the system is cerberus-free. Would go a long way to set up the whole "No, we didn't torch the universe" thing they seem to be going for now.
Another thing is the Five Kiloparsec Ring mention that I totally forgot about. Going to need to recalibrate my map. As of now Hawking Eta actually lies within 16000 ly of the core.
#44
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 11:10
MaximizedAction
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Very good research work!
Now the Take back Omega DLC makes very good sense, besides being a DLC with Aria. Hmmm...
Now the Take back Omega DLC makes very good sense, besides being a DLC with Aria. Hmmm...
Modifié par MaximizedAction, 12 avril 2012 - 11:12 .
#45
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 11:38
Poison_Berrie
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I wish to bring up the following counterpoint, OP.
They forgot to add or didn't bother to show the relay on the galactic core side. It's a simple matter of oversight.
Clearly the implications isn't that you FTL your way back via regular FTL.
The path out of the core is dangerous and even if you did get out you'd have to have the fortune of being near one part of the 1% of the galaxy that's explored by our civilization.
Since the Arrival isn't placed years after the suicide mission, one can safely assume that there is a relay to go back through.
They forgot to add or didn't bother to show the relay on the galactic core side. It's a simple matter of oversight.
Clearly the implications isn't that you FTL your way back via regular FTL.
The path out of the core is dangerous and even if you did get out you'd have to have the fortune of being near one part of the 1% of the galaxy that's explored by our civilization.
Since the Arrival isn't placed years after the suicide mission, one can safely assume that there is a relay to go back through.
Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 12 avril 2012 - 11:39 .
#46
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 12:02
a.m.p
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Poison_Berrie wrote...
I wish to bring up the following counterpoint, OP.
They forgot to add or didn't bother to show the relay on the galactic core side. It's a simple matter of oversight.
Clearly the implications isn't that you FTL your way back via regular FTL.
The path out of the core is dangerous and even if you did get out you'd have to have the fortune of being near one part of the 1% of the galaxy that's explored by our civilization.
Since the Arrival isn't placed years after the suicide mission, one can safely assume that there is a relay to go back through.
Well, yes. But since we're supposed to speculate and plug in all the me3 plot holes, why not plug some of the me2 along with them? Especially if it adds some hope to a perfectly bitter ending.
#47
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 12:18
Poison_Berrie
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No they are supposed to plug the plot holes. We shouldn't present them with failures on their part (forgetting to include a relay on the galactic core side) as solution to their problem (so called bittersweet ending has implied holocaust that makes it mostly bitter).a.m.p wrote...
Well, yes. But since we're supposed to speculate and plug in all the me3 plot holes, why not plug some of the me2 along with them? Especially if it adds some hope to a perfectly bitter ending.
It appreciate it more if they actually made that implied holocaust a real one.
#48
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 01:04
ZajoE38
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Even without this theory (good read though) the aftermath of ending is not lost, because organics can harness the Reaper technology. And we all know that they have advanced FTL thousands and thousands times faster than conventional FTL. It's not instantaneous, but fast enough for galaxy travel in short time.
#49
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 01:53
KrazyKiko
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Wow...I ate that information down like candy. Nice job...I love all the techno-talk! I would've preferred a senario where the relays discharged but didn't explode...they just remain there dark and inactive.
#50
Posté 12 avril 2012 - 01:57
Poison_Berrie
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Actually the codex puts their speed near 30 lightyears per day. About double our own speed.
Enough to cut the time down quite a bit, but not really as short a time as you seem to make ZajoE38.
Still requires some time to figure those cores out and how to apply that to our cores.
Of course then you need a whole lot of time to rebuild the entire industrial infrastructure before you can retrofit all you ships.
Enough to cut the time down quite a bit, but not really as short a time as you seem to make ZajoE38.
Still requires some time to figure those cores out and how to apply that to our cores.
Of course then you need a whole lot of time to rebuild the entire industrial infrastructure before you can retrofit all you ships.
