127 réponses à ce sujet

[MysticBinary82]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Banelash wrote...

Third, relay explosion kills systems as shown in ME2. The Batarian has no home now.

*facepalm*

I wish people would stop citing Arrival. If you can't see the difference between throwing a rocket-propelled asteroid at a static Relay and forcing one to discharge a massive amount of energy before disintegrating then no amount of DLC will convince you of anything.

 
An explosion is still an explosion and it is even fueled with the same energy - eezo. So the same would happen. And don't say that this is not the case. That would be like shooting a nuclear device resulting in an other explosion than just lunch it.

Modifié par MysticBinary82, 12 avril 2012 - 02:31 .

[Noatz]

Good ideas, but I'm inclined to put the absence of a twinned relay at the galactic core down to "executive amnesia" more than inferring that the Omega 4 relay generates a permanent mass free corridor (though that is possible).

[inko1nsiderate]

count_4 wrote...

 

inko1nsiderate wrote...
Well wait a moment.  How were the Reapers going to use the Citadel as is?  I mean, they can't have a relay floating out in space with them to connect the corridor.  Clearly the idea of the Citadel right from the start requires it to create the corridor from the galaxy to the Reapers in Dark Space and be a one way corridor.

Then why not put this relay, that's obviously capable of non-linked transit, out there where the Reapers reside in dark space? Would be safer and easier for them.

inko1nsiderate wrote...
Maybe the reason why they need the Citadel is that the distance they are going is so huge (even compared to the distances the Mass Relays send you) that you need a special relay with monstrous size.

The Alpha Relay is said to be able to send cargo over a distance of roughly 60,000 lightyears. So the Reapers could be 30,000ly out there and still directly jump to the Citadel to take out Galactic Government and deactivate the relay network.
If they actually are further out there, we're back with the first part (Citadel necessary).

It all comes down to: If non-linked transit over massive distance is possible, why don't the Reapers use it from their end?

First, they are probably over 60,000 light years away from the milky way.  I mean, just based on the visual evidence of the milky way appearing in its entirity on the computer screen.  So let's say that they are close to 100,000 ly away.  In the two years it takes them to get the to milky way that means they travel at 136 ly per day.  That isn't impossibly huge.  It is only an order of magnitude larger than what Dreadnaughts are capabale of, and seems entirely in line with the Reaper's abilities.  That puts them beyond the range of the Alpha relay.  

Also, I don't think they have an ability to communicate with the Citadel from their end.  Or, perhaps, that is why Sovereign showed up?  Every other time they were able to start the jump from their end to the Citadel without any warning by sending a signal to the Keepers, and the Protheans broke that feature so they sent Sovereign in to take care of it.  Sovereign was probably left behind to monitor the progress of the cycle.  That certainly seems in line with the lore.  It also explains why they were actually able to jump into the Prothean's cycle with no warning and kill all of their leadership at the Citadel in the first moments of their arrival.

But secondly, if transit isn't one way, then there is a Citadel sized mass relay in the middle of space that isn't gravitationally bound to any system.  So what is to keep it there?   All of the other relays are gravitationally bound by something, but this one isn't?

This is actually something that has bothered me before.  How do the Reapers use the Citdael from the middle of universal nowhere?  In the brief images they show us of the Reapers, there is no giant Citadel like Mass Relay, but there'd have to be one close by with them making sure it didn't float away...

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 12 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Poison_Berrie]

MysticBinary82 wrote...

An explosion is still an explosion and it is even fueled with the same energy - eezo. So the same would happen. And don't say that this is not the case. That would be like shooting a nuclear device resulting in an other explosion than just lunch it.

Well shooting a nuclear device, would in most cases not lead to an explosion. But that's because of how the fission reaction is started.
But when you consider that the spherical blast is a result of that mass relay's destruction you can't really say all the energy was let out in that signal.

@inko1nsiderate: The codex states that they can travel about 30 lightyears a day.

The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.

So I don't think they are supposed to be that far from our galaxy.

[Leafs43]

Omega 4 was an omni directional relay which was the height of reaper technology and required the reaper IFF to navigate.

And its on the ass end of the other side of the galaxy, so that does jack and squat for anyone on Earth if it didn't happen to blow up.


Not to mention, it may have gotten blown out of any orbit it had from the space magic explosions and can be drifting out in unexplored space for all we know.

Modifié par Leafs43, 12 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[Warrior Craess]

trembli0s wrote...

As Angry One pointed out, this is all an exercise in mental masturbation since we can't access the Omega relay anymore.

Its not that your explanation isn't valid or usable, its the fact that you're having to take a fine-toothed comb and looking through prior games to ATTEMPT to explain a POSSIBLE solution to the corner Bioware wrote themselves into.

While I think that having the Omega relay (which is realistically destryed like the others) would be a great way to reverse engineer it. I don't think that not having it makes it impossible to do so.  So long as the reaper IFF device wasn't destroyed in the same manner as the relays, then it may offer some invaulable information. 

It's never been imposible to rebuild galactic civilization, just extremely difficult.  Gotta run (Working EMS makes long posts somewhat difficult.  

[inko1nsiderate]

Poison_Berrie wrote...


@inko1nsiderate: The codex states that they can travel about 30 lightyears a day.

The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.

So I don't think they are supposed to be that far from our galaxy.

 You are correct. If that codex is taken as the actual max value the Reapers can travel they could only be 21,900 ly away (assuming they traveled for exactly 2 years).  But I think my points about the Citadel are still valid.  It never made sense to me how the Reapers used the Citadel as a Mass Relay.  You can't exactly anchor objects in space, and there isn't anything to tightly bind something that large gravitionally outside galaxies.  It would still probably be part of the large scale structure, but that could mean quite a large drift distance over 50,000 years between cycles.  It would definitely need constant supervision to keep it in the middle of nowhere in our local galaxy cluster.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 12 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[Warrior Craess]

I'm typically on the side of those who think that rebuilding the ME verse isn't going to happen. With one caveat, the time required. Eventually the ME verse can be rebuilt. knowing that something can be done is a huge step forward in technology development. For example atmospheric flight. It's just about 110 years old, and look at the progress. compare that with the 500 years it took to go from Leonardo da Vinci's theory, to the flight of the kitty hawk.

With the same type of advanced knowledge, knowing that relays work gives us a big advantage in figuring out how it's done. The biggest challenge is going to be in gaining the materials and infrastructure to build it.

[MyChemicalBromance]

trembli0s wrote...

If it was that simple, people would have been able to figure this out FAR in advance of the current situation.

As it is the Protheans designed a Mass Relay that was TINY in relative size to a regular Relay.

I gave no specifics on how to actually build one.

And if the Omega-4 Relay was not linked, the denizens of the galaxy would not have this information until 2185, that is, less than a year before all the Relays were destroyed.

They never fully understood the Relays, and why would they even consider a linkless relay to be possible if they never observed one or understood how normal relays function?

[MyChemicalBromance]

a.m.p wrote...

MyChemicalBromance, finally read that, good catch about the Omega-4. The Normandy apparently going FTL in the middle of the galaxy with all those exploding stars and black holes has bugged me since completing ME2, this could explain it. Though one has to wonder whether it could be the original intention of that cutscene.

So... now I actually want a take back Omega DLC, which among other things mentions sending science teams to study the relay, now that the system is cerberus-free. Would go a long way to set up the whole "No, we didn't torch the universe" thing they seem to be going for now.

Another thing is the Five Kiloparsec Ring mention that I totally forgot about. Going to need to recalibrate my map. As of now Hawking Eta actually lies within 16000 ly of the core.

It always bugged me too. I figure that even if they actually did forget something that important, they might as well plug it while clarifying things

And yeah, the Take Back Omega DLC seems like a good place to bring this up.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Infinityphoenix wrote...

If the Omega-4 Relay is one-way like the Conduit, how did the Normandy get back to Termius Space in a matter of weeks? Also, for clarification, I don't remember the Conduit specifying whether all the Relays blew up or if it was just the one's connected to the Galactic Gride. Technically, since the Charon Relay was unactive before humanity branched out beyond Sol, doesn't that mean there might be other unactive Relays (which may not have been affected by the Crucible)?

I'm not arguing that the Omega 4 Relay is one-way, in fact, I pointed out that it would be impossible for the Normandy to return without a relay. My argument is that the Omega 4 Relay apparently made a two-way corridor by itself.

[Reptilian Rob]

The Angry One wrote...

Banelash wrote...

but they all blew up. Where you gonna find one intact for this to work

Omega-4 isn't connected to any other relay, logically it shoudn't have been hit by the doom pulse.

It's an unstable relay however, I don't think the tech implemented into it would help build other stable relays. 

[CapnManx]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


I'm not arguing that the Omega 4 Relay is one-way, in fact, I pointed out that it would be impossible for the Normandy to return without a relay. My argument is that the Omega 4 Relay apparently made a two-way corridor by itself.

If we assume that a mass free corridor only requires one relay, then what might the second one in a normal primary pair be for? 

Determining where the corridor stops perhaps?  That is to say, the first relay makes a corridor that can be accessed from either end; while the second one just makes sure the corridor ends somewhere useful (possibly through the use of a very localized high mass field to balance out the low mass field of the other relay).

If that were so, natural high mass objects could possibly serve the same function; the Collector base was supposedly surrounded by black holes, which might have prevented the corridor from extending any further.

[Warrior Craess]

CapnManx wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...


I'm not arguing that the Omega 4 Relay is one-way, in fact, I pointed out that it would be impossible for the Normandy to return without a relay. My argument is that the Omega 4 Relay apparently made a two-way corridor by itself.

If we assume that a mass free corridor only requires one relay, then what might the second one in a normal primary pair be for? 

Determining where the corridor stops perhaps?  That is to say, the first relay makes a corridor that can be accessed from either end; while the second one just makes sure the corridor ends somewhere useful (possibly through the use of a very localized high mass field to balance out the low mass field of the other relay).

If that were so, natural high mass objects could possibly serve the same function; the Collector base was supposedly surrounded by black holes, which might have prevented the corridor from extending any further.

I think the supposition is that most are linked so that cilvilizations grew along the patterns desrired by the Reapers, so they place artificial limits on them.  Pretty sure that MyChemicalBromance is saying that potentially all relays could be unlimited like the Relay Alpha or the Omega Relay. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 12 avril 2012 - 10:54 .

[Evo_9]

I think you will just find that they didnt bother to include the relay in the cut scene.

How the hell could bioware assume that the majority would figure this all out on our own just from one little cut scene.

This is up there with the indoctrination theory. ie crazy speculation.

Not that it isnt a cool thought and i hope youre spot on.

Modifié par Evo_9, 12 avril 2012 - 11:12 .

[KingNothing125]

I'm more inclined to believe that the lack of a linked relay in the galactic core at the end of ME2 was a mistake, or that we just couldn't see it because it was far away and the Normandy was FTLing to it... rather than the Omega-4 relay being some kind of awesome doesn't-need-a-partner relay.

Because if the Omega-4 relay was an awesome doesn't-need-a-partner relay, then the Reapers wouldn't bother with a Citadel, when they could just have a Omega-4 relay-style awesome-doesn't-need-a-partner relay sitting out in darkspace that doesn't need to be activated by the keepers. They could just pop in whenever they wanted.

[CapnManx]

Warrior Craess wrote...


I think the supposition is that most are linked so that cilvilizations grew along the patterns desrired by the Reapers, so they place artificial limits on them.  Pretty sure that MyChemicalBromance is saying that potentially all relays could be unlimited like the Relay Alpha or the Omega Relay. 

I know, it's just that we don't know for certain that Omega was unlimited in that manner.  Which raises the question 'could something else have been filling the role of a second relay?'.  Presumably not the Collector base, since it blew up before the Normandy left; but there might have been something about that particular location that enabled a single relay corridor to work.

[AIR MOORE]

KingNothing125 wrote...

I'm more inclined to believe that the lack of a linked relay in the galactic core at the end of ME2 was a mistake, or that we just couldn't see it because it was far away and the Normandy was FTLing to it... rather than the Omega-4 relay being some kind of awesome doesn't-need-a-partner relay.

Because if the Omega-4 relay was an awesome doesn't-need-a-partner relay, then the Reapers wouldn't bother with a Citadel, when they could just have a Omega-4 relay-style awesome-doesn't-need-a-partner relay sitting out in darkspace that doesn't need to be activated by the keepers. They could just pop in whenever they wanted.

x2.

It's good work, but extrapolating it out to it's end, it still doesn't make sense within context of game. (Without more speculation of course).

Modifié par AIR MOORE, 12 avril 2012 - 11:34 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

KingNothing125 wrote...
Because if the Omega-4 relay was an awesome doesn't-need-a-partner relay, then the Reapers wouldn't bother with a Citadel, when they could just have a Omega-4 relay-style awesome-doesn't-need-a-partner relay sitting out in darkspace that doesn't need to be activated by the keepers. They could just pop in whenever they wanted.

This is a very good point. I could offer some speculation on why Relays could not be placed outside the galaxy, but that's based on the old Dark Energy plot and thus is speculation based on speculation.

Of course, the ME1 question "why did the Citadel need to be activated?" still remains unanswered. Normal Relay connections can apparently be activated from either end, so the fact that the Citadel must be activated from one end suggests that it may be linkless. That said, there is still the question of why the Reapers did not just build a Relay in Dark Space and wait for QEC communication from Sovereign to activate it. For the ME1 Citadel plot to make sense, something would have had to of stopped the Reapers from building normal Relays in Dark Space. I don't think "because organics would see it" is a justification, since the codex says they are cold objects, evidenced by how hard the Mu Relay was to find without coordinates.

Ultimately, we can't say one way or another without more info on what was going on, but good catch.

Modifié par MyChemicalBromance, 12 avril 2012 - 11:54 .

[hanshotfirs]

Hmm... pretty good theory. Supports the quote that the mass relays aren't needed for travel. Starts to feel a bit more like the B5 universe to me, but... very well researched. :-)

I kind of get the feeling Bioware was thinking something like this, esp with the comments that if shepard lived, there's no reason s/he can't be reunited w/normandy. We'll see!

[MyChemicalBromance]

Evo_9 wrote...


How the hell could bioware assume that the majority would figure this all out on our own just from one little cut scene.

Bioware assumed we all knew that travel was feasible without the Relays. Before Mass Effect 3, we had ONE reference for the cruising speed of ships, and that was from a conversation with Ash in Mass Effect 1. Even in Mass Effect 3, we only got one other reference, and that was from a codex entry.

Bioware seems to have the entire tech-Bible layed out in front of them, but they sometimes forget that we don't.

[Warrior Craess]

CapnManx wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...


I think the supposition is that most are linked so that cilvilizations grew along the patterns desrired by the Reapers, so they place artificial limits on them.  Pretty sure that MyChemicalBromance is saying that potentially all relays could be unlimited like the Relay Alpha or the Omega Relay. 

I know, it's just that we don't know for certain that Omega was unlimited in that manner.  Which raises the question 'could something else have been filling the role of a second relay?'.  Presumably not the Collector base, since it blew up before the Normandy left; but there might have been something about that particular location that enabled a single relay corridor to work.

Didn't blow up in my save, but I get the idea. It's possible something else did preform the function of a relay... but not sure what it would be.  We Come back to time though, as the amount of time it would take to reach the Omega relay is pretty daunting.

Sad fact is that we know almost nothing of tech of the relays. This essentially boils down into a prove a negeative type of arguement.  In the end neither side has enough information.  It's all just speculation, good speculation, but well, there you have it. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 13 avril 2012 - 01:33 .

[Trzeb]

You should do a seminar here at my university on this

[MyChemicalBromance]

Trzeb wrote...

You should do a seminar here at my university on this

3:00pm
Professor Dickerson
Thesis defense on neutron shielding in Sodium Fast Reactors.

4:00pm
Professor Morrison
Seminar on nuclear proliferation in 1990's (Pakistan)

5:00pm
Professor Bromance
Thesis defense on Banshee Genitals.

I would lose my ****.