202 réponses à ce sujet

[XOGHunter246]

would be nice to see you reason for hating her

[The Angry One]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Yeah, what horror it must be to live, protected from themselves and others, with others of your kind, that understand everything you are and your troubles, nurturing your innate abilities.
That horror!

Never had kids I take it?

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Plus she was not to lose her son. Children showing magical talent need to go to a circel for training and lose all claims to their familystatus, but there is no rule that contact between the child and its parents has to end as the epiloge cleary shows considering Eamon held contact with Connor if both survive.

Seems like a special case to me, most mages in the tower speak of being cut off from their families.
And in any case. Yay, Parents get to visit their kid in a gilded prison. Would you really desire that for your children?

I never really interpreted that as a prison, as such. Yes, they cannot leave at will, but I never saw anything preventing visitors. I'd think they were cut off from their families in the same manner as boarding school cuts you off from your family.

That, and the fact that we're in a feudal medieval society, it's unlikely that you get visitors very often, unless your parents live somewhere around Lake Calenhad. Travelling costs money, resources, and time. If your family is from Denerim, it's unlikely you'll see them very often, even if the circle was "just" a school where you could come and go at will.

That is, if your family even acknowledges you. The fear of mages and magic, THERE is something that's wrong with the Chantry culture. Not the Circles.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Yeah, what horror it must be to live, protected from themselves and others, with others of your kind, that understand everything you are and your troubles, nurturing your innate abilities.
That horror!

Never had kids I take it?

No, but if I had, I'd like them to grow up in a world that recognizes them and where they recognize others. With friends and comrades they can relate to and teachers that help them reach their full potential.

And protect them from the persecution of their lessers.

[Wittand25]

The Angry One wrote...

Seems like a special case to me, most mages in the tower speak of being cut off from their families.
And in any case. Yay, Parents get to visit their kid in a gilded prison. Would you really desire that for your children?

I dont think that its a special case. The mages who talk about their parents mostly mention how the parents were terrified of having a mage child and cast them out not a single one mentioned beeing forcefully seperated from a loving family.
And I would rather send my children away to life in a gilded prison then risking their and everybody elses live by letting them grow up without proper training and supervision, look at what happend to Connor.

[ChemicalGreen]

My reasons for hating her?



She's

i) a hypocrite (Oh, I'm so pious, yet I flaunt the laws when it comes to me&mine)

ii) selfish (my need to have my son with me > everything else. I mean, who's to say Connor wouldn't have enjoyed the life with the circle? But no no. Connor away from ME = Bad. Terrible. Clearly child abuse.)

iii) elitist (barely notices the deaths of the villagers, instead goes on about moaning her son)

and

iv) stupid. (By trusting Loghaine she allows him to get Jowan in to poison Arl Eamon)



I tend to opt for killing Connor just because it gives the option to slap that cow silly.

[The Angry One]

The concept of the circle itself isn't the deal breaker here, it is in fact how the Chantry handles it.

I doubt that the templars would be all that pleased with regular visitations, there's also the fact that if you don't do "well" you risk getting tranquiled, or killed in the Harrowing (the Harrowing seems like a farce to me, Uldred surely went through it, so did all those blood mages, it proves nothing).

[The Angry One]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

My reasons for hating her?

She's
i) a hypocrite (Oh, I'm so pious, yet I flaunt the laws when it comes to me&mine)

I wonder if there's ever been a pious person who wasn't like that.

ii) selfish (my need to have my son with me > everything else. I mean, who's to say Connor wouldn't have enjoyed the life with the circle? But no no. Connor away from ME = Bad. Terrible. Clearly child abuse.)

Yes because it's so easy to give one's only child up to an organisation that treats them like they have a disease and will kill or lobotomize them based on arbitrary criteria.

iii) elitist (barely notices the deaths of the villagers, instead goes on about moaning her son)
and

A noble that doesn't particularily care about the peasants! Call the UN!

iv) stupid. (By trusting Loghaine she allows him to get Jowan in to poison Arl Eamon)

Yeah how could she trust a well known national hero in her moment of desperation.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

I like the fact that she is supposedly a "pious" woman but the first damn thing she does is turn to an apostate. That kind of piety is why we had to endure [insert random religious crap here]...

Her only redeeming moment for me was when she was so willing to sacrifice herself for her son. It wasn't even a hesitation. It was a parent moment and as one, I actually liked her for that.

Piety tends to last only as long as one's personal life isn't compromised.
Human nature.

Thus making her a hypocritical stupid cow...

I am a parent, two lovely sons are watching Army of Darkness as I type this. However, as a "pious" woman, she would know the dangers of being a mage. A danger they would face their entire lives. If I am going to claim religious piety then I can at least realize that for the sake of my kids, I might have to send them away. Bringing in an apostate, something her religion said was a dumb idea, would just make things worse. It is like saving your kids from devil worship by buying them a book on summoning demons.

I'm sure it wouldn't be a huge deal for an Arlessa to arrange some visiting time with her little circle mage boy. The Arl certainly seems to pull it off. I can understand a panick reaction but that doesn't stop it from being monumentally stupid and shortsighted.

[The Angry One]

I don't deny that it's hypocrisy, but given that apostates do exist, and can live apart from the circle, she took a gamble.

She lost thanks to Loghain's treachery; if Jowan hadn't poisoned Eamon who's to say whether it would've turned out for the best?

[Xaila]

I hated her more for her past treatment of Alistair (she even scoffs a little if you have him in your party when you first encounter her) and stupid whiny voice.  She had noooo problem shipping off little Alistair at the age of 10, but when it's ~her~ son it's a different story. 

[ChemicalGreen]

I judge her as a person, not allowing her to hide behind any arbitrary excuse. So what if she's a noble, the fact that she thinks everyone else is beneath her is elitist. And so what if she's a mother? Being a mother is no excuse for doing unforgivable ****, the same that having PMS is no excuse to be a raving lunatic a few days a month. Stuff gets hard for you when your son isn't what you wanted him to be, gotcha. So why does everyone else except Isolde and her soon foot that bill? Oh, right. Because she's an elitist hypocrite.



And as for pious people always being turncoats when the going gets rough? No, not always, she's just weak and stupid.

[The Angry One]

Xaila wrote...

I hated her more for her past treatment of Alistair (she even scoffs a little if you have him in your party when you first encounter her) and stupid whiny voice.  She had noooo problem shipping off little Alistair at the age of 10, but when it's ~her~ son it's a different story. 

Welcome to the nobility.
Given the rampant rumors that Alistair was Eamon's bastard, he was a threat to her own legitimacy and that of any child she might have, so she got rid of him. Alistair himself acknowledges that.
Again it's not particularily nice, and of course it's hypocrisy, but that's how that type of person thinks so I don't see any reason to single her out and call her stupid for it.

[Vansen Elamber]

On my first playthrough I thought it would take too long to get to the Circle tower and back again and I did not even know about the problems there that would take slightly less then forever to solve. So I had a very willing mother wanting to giver her own life for her son's and thats exactly what I did. It totally took me by surprise when I went to camp after that and Alistar totally freaked on me! I was like..."Yikes! he is going to leave!" and I really hate it when anyone in my party, well except maybe Zeveran, leaves me! But he just yelled at me for a while and I got a big fat dissapproval from him but he stayed on to the end and we even kind of patched things up after that. My char at that time was a male elf rogue so we were just buddies anyway with no romance to get in the way of that.



The next time I was a female human mage and I did not want to upset Alistar so I chose the tower which seems to make the game flow better when you do Redcliffe, the Circle tower, which then leads to the Sacred Urn quest and it all fits better story wise, at least it seems that way.



As for hating Isolde I never did or could because she is only trying to keep her son, any mother would do the same its just human nature. She is not responsible for some of her actions in those circumstances because all she can think about is loosing her son, which prevents any sort of reasoning to be included in her decisions.

[The Angry One]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

I judge her as a person, not allowing her to hide behind any arbitrary excuse. So what if she's a noble, the fact that she thinks everyone else is beneath her is elitist. And so what if she's a mother? Being a mother is no excuse for doing unforgivable ****, the same that having PMS is no excuse to be a raving lunatic a few days a month. Stuff gets hard for you when your son isn't what you wanted him to be, gotcha. So why does everyone else except Isolde and her soon foot that bill? Oh, right. Because she's an elitist hypocrite.

And as for pious people always being turncoats when the going gets rough? No, not always, she's just weak and stupid.

You can't judge a person without context.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

I don't deny that it's hypocrisy, but given that apostates do exist, and can live apart from the circle, she took a gamble.
She lost thanks to Loghain's treachery; if Jowan hadn't poisoned Eamon who's to say whether it would've turned out for the best?

Considering that she has no knowledge of the Harrowing, IE paying attention when you play a mage would tell you this, and her ONLY information is that apostates are bad then how are any of her actions not blatantly retarded.

I actually hate that I have to say this about a woman but... "I'm glad she's cute because she doesn't seem to have brains going for her."

So yea she gambled. She gambled with a quantity known (by her POV) to be dangerous and reckless. So I have to ask since you seem so keen on defending her, do you often play with dice that you know are loaded against you?

[borelocin]

Isolde manufactured the entire crisis at Redcliffe through her refusal to face reality - no matter what she did she was going to lose her son ( to death or the Circle ) and her stupidity cost countless lives. I wanted to sacrifice her even when I was playing "good".

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...

The concept of the circle itself isn't the deal breaker here, it is in fact how the Chantry handles it.
I doubt that the templars would be all that pleased with regular visitations, there's also the fact that if you don't do "well" you risk getting tranquiled, or killed in the Harrowing (the Harrowing seems like a farce to me, Uldred surely went through it, so did all those blood mages, it proves nothing).

The harrowing isn't done to protect against becoming a blood mage. It's to protect against demonic possession.

All of the blood mages became blood mages first, thus exposing themselves to demons far more than any ordinary mage, and then they became abominations. Others were forced to accept possession, by Uldred. For all we know, the Harrowing works exactly as intended. It teaches you the nature of demons and to stay wary of them.

I think the Chantry handles the Circle relatively fine. There could be changes made, sure, but for me, the problem is Chantry culture outside of the Circle, not how it's handled internally. Mages are a danger to others and themselves.

Keeping the Templars drugged isn't very nice, though, but as has been said; It also increases the strength of their abilities.

[The Angry One]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Considering that she has no knowledge of the Harrowing, IE paying attention when you play a mage would tell you this, and her ONLY information is that apostates are bad then how are any of her actions not blatantly retarded.

She doesn't have to know about the Harrowing. Tranquils are fairly common knowledge, and despite Owain's claims to be under an oath of secrecy, the Tranquil in Ostagar is all but eager to spill the beans on the process.
It'd be fairly common knowledge, especially to a noble, that not all mages who go in... come out. Either they're tranquiled or die.
And again, only Chantry dogma says apostates are bad. When she's faced with the simple fact that an apostate may be the only way to help her son other than imprisoning him in the tower, that piety goes out the window. Again, human nature.

So yea she gambled. She gambled with a quantity known (by her POV) to be dangerous and reckless. So I have to ask since you seem so keen on defending her, do you often play with dice that you know are loaded against you?

For the sake of my children? Yes I would.
But I don't think she saw it quite that way. She couldn't have predicted Loghain's plots or the whole demon thing. 

[The Angry One]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The concept of the circle itself isn't the deal breaker here, it is in fact how the Chantry handles it.
I doubt that the templars would be all that pleased with regular visitations, there's also the fact that if you don't do "well" you risk getting tranquiled, or killed in the Harrowing (the Harrowing seems like a farce to me, Uldred surely went through it, so did all those blood mages, it proves nothing).

The harrowing isn't done to protect against becoming a blood mage. It's to protect against demonic possession.

All of the blood mages became blood mages first, thus exposing themselves to demons far more than any ordinary mage, and then they became abominations. Others were forced to accept possession, by Uldred. For all we know, the Harrowing works exactly as intended. It teaches you the nature of demons and to stay wary of them.

I think the Chantry handles the Circle relatively fine. There could be changes made, sure, but for me, the problem is Chantry culture outside of the Circle, not how it's handled internally. Mages are a danger to others and themselves.

Keeping the Templars drugged isn't very nice, though, but as has been said; It also increases the strength of their abilities.

Keep in mind none of that stopped Uldred from researching demonology, summoning demons, and getting his dumb ass possessed.

[Vansen Elamber]

If you want to talk about a female character that is "stupid" in the game, in my oppinion it is Morrigan. Every single time she is with me and I do the "right thing" and help the people in what ever area I am in she pretty much always disapproves. If she is so intelligent as she always says she is, then why can't she see that if I told everyone I met to F*** OFF! that getting the help we need to defeat Logain and the Darkspawn is going to be a lot more difficult. One of the KEY things to do in the game is to help Arl Emon and you get several disapprovals from Morrigan if she is with you. In the beginning she suggests going to Lothering however pretty much everything you do there she thinks is a complete waste of time and again the big fat disaprrovals.



Morrigan is the stupid cow...

[Varenus Luckmann]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

[,,,]

So yea she gambled. She gambled with a quantity known (by her POV) to be dangerous and reckless. So I have to ask since you seem so keen on defending her, do you often play with dice that you know are loaded against you?

She knew full well that Mages are dangerous and can be possessed by demons. This appears to be relatively common knowledge and we can assume that Isolde is relatively well educated.

What she did put not only herself and her son in danger, but much of the noble class in Ferelden as well as an entire castle and town. All the dead of Redcliffe, all the dead of the castle, all the guards, all the servants, all the farmers and peasants, rests solely on her shoulders.

It's actually kinda strange that, even if you save her, she isn't punished for her crimes. Surely harboring apostates and working with blood mages can not be legal?

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...

Keep in mind none of that stopped Uldred from researching demonology, summoning demons, and getting his dumb ass possessed.

I did. The Harrowing has nothing to do with any of that. The Harrowing doesn't stop you from having free will. If you want to become a Blood Mage, or research demonology, or ultimately consort with demons, the Harrowing doesn't prevent that.

[Zenova]

Aww I love Morrigan and how she constantly winds Alistar up, great stuff

as for Isolde, I feel sorry for her, shes not stupid she just really f**ked up

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...
For the sake of my children? Yes I would.
But I don't think she saw it quite that way. She couldn't have predicted Loghain's plots or the whole demon thing.

Stupid Cow.