202 réponses à ce sujet

[Original182]

Wittand25 wrote...
I dont think that its a special case. The mages who talk about their parents mostly mention how the parents were terrified of having a mage child and cast them out not a single one mentioned beeing forcefully seperated from a loving family.
And I would rather send my children away to life in a gilded prison then risking their and everybody elses live by letting them grow up without proper training and supervision, look at what happend to Connor.

Exactly. People seem to be quick to judge the Chantry for their treatment of mages, yet conveniently ignore the Qunari who cut out mages' tongues, and put them in cages. Now THAT is an inhumane way to treat mages. When talking to Wynne, she said when she was young, she used to go to the Chantry and talk to the Revered Mother, and the Revered Mother would offer motherly advice. Does that sound like an organization that hates mages?

Locking up criminals in prisons to protect them from the population is considered acceptable.
Locking up mages in the Circle Tower to protect them from the population is considered "Chantry dogma".

The Chantry doesn't teach people to hate mages. It's not the Chantry's fault that untrained mages can become abominations. The fear of magic is due to maleficars who give magic a bad name.

In the Commandments of the Maker:

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.

Foul and corrupt are they

Who have taken His gift

And turned it against His children.

They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.

They shall find no rest in this world

Or beyond.

Notice it doesn't say burn mages on stakes. The Commandment however, is against mages who have used it to harm people. Next thing you want to say is country laws are oppressing the population because they want to lock up criminals. So let's rebel against the law.

http://dragonage.wik...ts_of_the_Maker

[The Angry One]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Keep in mind none of that stopped Uldred from researching demonology, summoning demons, and getting his dumb ass possessed.

I did. The Harrowing has nothing to do with any of that. The Harrowing doesn't stop you from having free will. If you want to become a Blood Mage, or research demonology, or ultimately consort with demons, the Harrowing doesn't prevent that.

Then why do it? Why traumatize potential mages with it? Why not just teach them about the nature of demons?
Most of the characters seem to regard the Harrowing as some sort of "proving" when it really isn't, oh and if you fail you get possessed and get killed by templars. Super.

[th3warr1or]

She was put in a tough situation, but she was the one that put that situation upon herself.



So she tried to save her son's future, at the expense of his own life, Eamon's life, Teagan's life and Teagan's bannorn.

[th3warr1or]

She was put in a tough situation, but she was the one that put that situation upon herself.



So she tried to save her son's future, at the expense of his own life, Eamon's life, Teagan's life and Teagan's bannorn.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

For the sake of my children? Yes I would.
But I don't think she saw it quite that way. She couldn't have predicted Loghain's plots or the whole demon thing. 

Barring everything else, which fine she had a chance to know about Tranquils though I doubt her reading comprehension skills. For all her intelligence, she probably thought they just were hippies.

Barring all that, you're saying that  you would seriously take a chance of letting obvious criminals around your kids... Wow. Just Wow... I suppose that is one work release program for the prison system. Enjoy Serial Killer Bob the personal tutor.

I mean, seriously, you're assuming way more knowledge about what she knows than I am. The game doesn't say **** about what she knows about apostates but it does make a big deal about her being pious. In all honesty, all evidence states that she was humiliated by her kid being a mage and despite everything she knows saying it was a horribly stupid idea, she does it anyway.

I'm all for saving my kids but I don't suddenly develop random stupid to save them. If anything, I'd bribe a circle mage if I was going to go that dangerous route then I could at least Pretend to have thought things through. Even that seems like a bad idea.

Basically she is the textbook example of a dumb criminal and I am still galled that nothing was done about it but, nobles are special so I can't expect more. She thought the rules didn't apply to her and thus nearly lost her kid. Actually thinking about this makes me want to just go kill the brat in my current playthrough. But no, I am going to confront the demon and get my happy Fade book. She'll lose her boy twice. Dumb broad.

[ChemicalGreen]

Vansen Elamber wrote...

If you want to talk about a female character that is "stupid" in the game, in my oppinion it is Morrigan. Every single time she is with me and I do the "right thing" and help the people in what ever area I am in she pretty much always disapproves. If she is so intelligent as she always says she is, then why can't she see that if I told everyone I met to F*** OFF! that getting the help we need to defeat Logain and the Darkspawn is going to be a lot more difficult. One of the KEY things to do in the game is to help Arl Emon and you get several disapprovals from Morrigan if she is with you. In the beginning she suggests going to Lothering however pretty much everything you do there she thinks is a complete waste of time and again the big fat disaprrovals.

Morrigan is the stupid cow...

You know, that's the main thing that bugged me about Morrigan. She doesn't wait to see what you do with a quest or task, whether you do it for selfish motives or out of the goodness of me heart. She's always assumes that doing a task = oh, we must be out for world peace! If she could at least hold hor tongue until she sees my motivations...

[Varenus Luckmann]

Zenova wrote...
[...]

as for Isolde, I feel sorry for her, shes not stupid she just really f**ked up

No. Missplacing a nail and later stepping on it is screwing up. Forgetting that you placed the vaccum cleaner in the hall and then stumbling over it is clumsy.

Doing something as reckless and stupid as Isolde, fully aware what she could end up causing, no matter her hopes that her son would learn "just enough to hide it", and end up killing possibly several hundreds, isn't "f**k up". It's being a naive, stupid, nonsensical, retarded cow.

It's like giving your 5-year-old children guns, hoping they'll learn just how to defend themselves a little.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

Exactly. People seem to be quick to judge the Chantry for their treatment of mages, yet conveniently ignore the Qunari who cut out mages' tongues, and put them in cages. Now THAT is an inhumane way to treat mages.

So it's okay to treat a group badly, because they get treated worse elsewhere?
That's like saying it's okay to discriminate against homosexuals in America, because in some countries they get stoned to death.

When talking to Wynne, she said when she was young, she used to go to the Chantry and talk to the Revered Mother, and the Revered Mother would offer motherly advice. Does that sound like an organization that hates mages?

It sounds like there was one priest who didn't instantly regard mages with contempt. Yay?

Locking up criminals in prisons to protect them from the population is considered acceptable.
Locking up mages in the Circle Tower to protect them from the population is considered "Chantry dogma".

No, the dogma is what teaches the ignorant masses that mages are beings to fear and loathe.
Do you even know what dogma means?

The Chantry doesn't teach people to hate mages. It's not the Chantry's fault that untrained mages can become abominations. The fear of magic is due to maleficars who give magic a bad name.

In the Commandments of the Maker:

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.

Foul and corrupt are they

Who have taken His gift

And turned it against His children.

They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.

They shall find no rest in this world

Or beyond.

Notice it doesn't say burn mages on stakes. The Commandment however, is against mages who have used it to harm people. Next thing you want to say is country laws are oppressing the population because they want to lock up criminals. So let's rebel against the law.

Baloney. The Chantry labels any apostate and any practicioner of magic not sanctioned by them "maleficar", to be hunted and *killed*.
Comparing mages who might not have done anything to criminals, who already have violated the law and hurt others is absurd. You're judging a whole group of people based on what they might do. All hail the Chantry thought police! <_<

[The Angry One]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Barring all that, you're saying that  you would seriously take a chance of letting obvious criminals around your kids... Wow. Just Wow... I suppose that is one work release program for the prison system. Enjoy Serial Killer Bob the personal tutor.

False analogy; apostates are only "criminals" because of the terrible crime of wanting to be left alone.

I mean, seriously, you're assuming way more knowledge about what she knows than I am. The game doesn't say **** about what she knows about apostates but it does make a big deal about her being pious. In all honesty, all evidence states that she was humiliated by her kid being a mage and despite everything she knows saying it was a horribly stupid idea, she does it anyway.

I'm saying she has no objective proof that apostates are bad, only religious dogma.
In a moment of desperation, maybe, just maybe, she comes to consider that it's not entirely true.

I'm all for saving my kids but I don't suddenly develop random stupid to save them. If anything, I'd bribe a circle mage if I was going to go that dangerous route then I could at least Pretend to have thought things through. Even that seems like a bad idea.

Yeah I'm sure one could find and bribe a circle mage without a templar immediately coming down on you like a ton of bricks/

Basically she is the textbook example of a dumb criminal and I am still galled that nothing was done about it but, nobles are special so I can't expect more. She thought the rules didn't apply to her and thus nearly lost her kid. Actually thinking about this makes me want to just go kill the brat in my current playthrough. But no, I am going to confront the demon and get my happy Fade book. She'll lose her boy twice. Dumb broad.

You conclude this because you assume apostates must be criminals, and that their involvement must end in tragedy.
Ironically in this case, it was the involvement of a non-apostate, non-mage (Loghain) that messed things up.

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Keep in mind none of that stopped Uldred from researching demonology, summoning demons, and getting his dumb ass possessed.

I did. The Harrowing has nothing to do with any of that. The Harrowing doesn't stop you from having free will. If you want to become a Blood Mage, or research demonology, or ultimately consort with demons, the Harrowing doesn't prevent that.

Then why do it? Why traumatize potential mages with it? Why not just teach them about the nature of demons?
Most of the characters seem to regard the Harrowing as some sort of "proving" when it really isn't, oh and if you fail you get possessed and get killed by templars. Super.

I'd say that it's sorta like swimming. Except more severe.

I am sure they teach you about the nature of demons. But teaching you about them only takes you so far. You cannot comprehend the nature of demons until you enter the fade and face one, learning in person that you cannot trust anything in the fade. Just like you can learn all the theoretics of swimming, or riding a bike, or reading, or fight in armed combat, but you cannot comprehend it until you're faced with the reality.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

Vansen Elamber wrote...

If you want to talk about a female character that is "stupid" in the game, in my oppinion it is Morrigan. Every single time she is with me and I do the "right thing" and help the people in what ever area I am in she pretty much always disapproves. If she is so intelligent as she always says she is, then why can't she see that if I told everyone I met to F*** OFF! that getting the help we need to defeat Logain and the Darkspawn is going to be a lot more difficult. One of the KEY things to do in the game is to help Arl Emon and you get several disapprovals from Morrigan if she is with you. In the beginning she suggests going to Lothering however pretty much everything you do there she thinks is a complete waste of time and again the big fat disaprrovals.

Morrigan is the stupid cow...

You know, that's the main thing that bugged me about Morrigan. She doesn't wait to see what you do with a quest or task, whether you do it for selfish motives or out of the goodness of me heart. She's always assumes that doing a task = oh, we must be out for world peace! If she could at least hold hor tongue until she sees my motivations...

I had the same problem but somebody else talked me down with some character logic. Morrigan is a flawed person. She is emotionally stunted because her mother is basically using her as a spare set of panties for when she gets a tad older... So Morrigan is painfully shortsighted and shows this multiple times. Part of the game is her character arc and development with the main character. It is why I wanted to punch her in the beginning and but ended up caring about her a lot.

[The Angry One]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I'd say that it's sorta like swimming. Except more severe.

I am sure they teach you about the nature of demons. But teaching you about them only takes you so far. You cannot comprehend the nature of demons until you enter the fade and face one, learning in person that you cannot trust anything in the fade. Just like you can learn all the theoretics of swimming, or riding a bike, or reading, or fight in armed combat, but you cannot comprehend it until you're faced with the reality.

Perhaps. Though I say the whole leaving you in there until you're either possessed or outwit the demon and if you're possessed you get skewered is a bit much.
And again, they seem to take the test as some sort of guarantee that you're strong enough to never be possessed, even though this isn't so.

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:19 .

[Silensfurtim]

Isolde is just desperate imo..

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
So it's okay to treat a group badly, because they get treated worse elsewhere?
That's like saying it's okay to discriminate against homosexuals in America, because in some countries they get stoned to death.

First, gays don't become abominations and kill people in real life. Comparing mages to gays is a poor comparison.
Second, the point is you spend all your energy condemning the Chantry for it's reasonable treatment of mages. Yet you turn a blind eye on the Qunari who treat mages like animals. Conclusion? You attack the Chantry just because they are the Chantry. It's not ok to discriminate against the mages, but the Chantry are fair game?

It sounds like there was one priest who didn't instantly regard mages with contempt. Yay?

If the Chantry trains people to hate mages, how come that Revered Mother still treats Wynne like a human being? Can you give me an instance where the Chantry openly hates mages? If you can't, then it's all mere speculation on your part.

No, the dogma is what teaches the ignorant masses that mages are beings to fear and loathe.
Do you even know what dogma means?

I already quoted to you the commandment from the Maker. It doesn't teach you to hate mages. But it teaches you that using magic to harm people is bad. Once again, show me proof that the Chantry teaches people to hate mages.
And the masses fear mages because of the maleficar, what happened to Connor, etc. They don't need the Chantry or anybody else to tell them magic can be bad, because they can see it with their own eyes.
Please don't blame the Chantry for reality [in Ferelden].

Baloney. The Chantry labels any apostate and any practicioner of magic not sanctioned by them "maleficar", to be hunted and *killed*.
Comparing mages who might not have done anything to criminals, who already have violated the law and hurt others is absurd. You're judging a whole group of people based on what they might do. All hail the Chantry thought police! <_<

The potential for any apostate not sanctioned by the Chantry to become an abomination or cause harm to the population is too great.
I was comparing mages to criminals because they are a potential danger to society. Once a mage becomes an abomination, many people will be hurt, as per Connor's case.
All mages have the potential to be overpowered by demons and become abominations. You cannot let mages go hoping that they might not become one.

[JessicaGlenn]

If the OP and others hate her so much, there's always the option of her sacrificing her life for Connor. Its WAYYYYYY better and satisfying then "hitting her" since she dies pretty horribly. It was way to horrible for me that I had to load game and take a hike to mage tower.

[Varenus Luckmann]

The Angry One wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I'd say that it's sorta like swimming. Except more severe.

I am sure they teach you about the nature of demons. But teaching you about them only takes you so far. You cannot comprehend the nature of demons until you enter the fade and face one, learning in person that you cannot trust anything in the fade. Just like you can learn all the theoretics of swimming, or riding a bike, or reading, or fight in armed combat, but you cannot comprehend it until you're faced with the reality.

Perhaps. Though I say the whole leaving you in there until you're either possessed or outwit the demon and if you're possessed you get skewered is a bit much.
And again, they seem to take the test as some sort of guarantee that you're strong enough to never be possessed, even though this isn't so.

I never saw anyone mention it as some kind of guarantee. It helps, maybe. But I don't think there's any kind of guarantee against being possessed.

[MadCat221]

Lessee here... We have Cullen, who wants to totally clean house, we have the Revered Mother who goes ape on the mage at Ostagar, we have the Templars who ganged up on Wynne's first apprentice simply for being a confused boy, and we have the Chantry addicting their Templars for no reason other than control and also claiming all babies borne to Mages as wards of the Chantry.



Some means of defense against abominations is needed, but the Chantry goes overboard. Maybe not as far as the Qunari, but Mages are still unfairly discriminated against.



Mage control is needed, but not by a dogmatic group of zealots.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

False analogy; apostates are only "criminals" because of the terrible crime of wanting to be left alone.

I'm saying she has no objective proof that apostates are bad, only religious dogma.
In a moment of desperation, maybe, just maybe, she comes to consider that it's not entirely true.

Um not a false analogy at all. I am talking about HER knowledge, not my own. Don't forget that or there is no point in me talking to you. I actually dislike the chantry but everything the Chantry ever told her was that this would happen. Guess what, it happened.

Yeah I'm sure one could find and bribe a circle mage without a templar immediately coming down on you like a ton of bricks/

That is different than what she actually did, really now? At least my idea involves a mage that has been monitored for a while and thus marginally less chance of being an abomination.

You conclude this because you assume apostates must be criminals, and that their involvement must end in tragedy.
Ironically in this case, it was the involvement of a non-apostate, non-mage (Loghain) that messed things up.

No, now you're being aggravating. We are not talking about YOUR or MY knowledge of how the world works. We are talking about hers. Stop assuming what I think about apostates. I actually like apostates but it isn't Loghain who is to blame. Loghain just tried to poison her husband. She was the one that allowed a mage that her religion branded as a criminal to teach her son illegal magic.

Teagan actually agrees with me. "Your actions made his possible." Isolde is the source of the problem in this instance. Loghain was an opportunist.

Seperate what you and I know about the situation and only take the facts into evidence here.

1. She is a pious woman and thus should have a nice laundry list of why this is a stupid and horrible idea.

2. Thought herself above the law of her god.

3. According to her own beliefs, she was allowing a dangerous criminal unlimited access to her child to protect him. Saving your child from lions by feeding it to wolves doesn't seem like a viable plan.

4. Everything she knew said this was a bad idea. EVERYTHING! And if anything, she just made it harder for apostates to be left alone.

Something tells me that a pious woman wouldn't think apostates to be harmless hippies wanting to just be left alone. So according to everything we could possibly know about her states that she thought the best way to protect her son from becoming an abomination was to allow access with a mage that her religion states will most easily become an abomination.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I'd say that it's sorta like swimming. Except more severe.

I am sure they teach you about the nature of demons. But teaching you about them only takes you so far. You cannot comprehend the nature of demons until you enter the fade and face one, learning in person that you cannot trust anything in the fade. Just like you can learn all the theoretics of swimming, or riding a bike, or reading, or fight in armed combat, but you cannot comprehend it until you're faced with the reality.

Perhaps. Though I say the whole leaving you in there until you're either possessed or outwit the demon and if you're possessed you get skewered is a bit much.
And again, they seem to take the test as some sort of guarantee that you're strong enough to never be possessed, even though this isn't so.

I never saw anyone mention it as some kind of guarantee. It helps, maybe. But I don't think there's any kind of guarantee against being possessed.

I don't think she listened to what the Pride demon said at the end of the Harrowing or she didn't remember it. Luckily, I did it just last night.

Fighting is the province of warriors. In the Fade, the worst enemy is preconceptions, blind trust, Pride... The Harrowing is a trial by fire, a humbling, and a test of mental fortitude to resist temptation. Mages do it because you can't teach what the Fade is like or the dangers that are there. Sure, you can lecture about it but you have to experience to understand it.

[ChemicalGreen]

JessicaGlenn wrote...

If the OP and others hate her so much, there's always the option of her sacrificing her life for Connor. Its WAYYYYYY better and satisfying then "hitting her" since she dies pretty horribly. It was way to horrible for me that I had to load game and take a hike to mage tower.

She also, y'know... dies. Compared to living on with the knowledge that she, and she alone doomed her son, and that it was through her actions that all came to pass... and on top you get punch her daylights out? No competition there for me, I'm afraid.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

JessicaGlenn wrote...

If the OP and others hate her so much, there's always the option of her sacrificing her life for Connor. Its WAYYYYYY better and satisfying then "hitting her" since she dies pretty horribly. It was way to horrible for me that I had to load game and take a hike to mage tower.

She also, y'know... dies. Compared to living on with the knowledge that she, and she alone doomed her son, and that it was through her actions that all came to pass... and on top you get punch her daylights out? No competition there for me, I'm afraid.

Too bad I am playing a mage this time around and my inner power gamer DEMANDS that I get that Fade Book. When I play a nonmage, I'll kill the brat.

[Original182]

MadCat221 wrote...

Lessee here... We have Cullen, who wants to totally clean house, we have the Revered Mother who goes ape on the mage at Ostagar, we have the Templars who ganged up on Wynne's first apprentice simply for being a confused boy, and we have the Chantry addicting their Templars for no reason other than control and also claiming all babies borne to Mages as wards of the Chantry.

Cullen was horrified by all the carnage caused by the blood mages. We're talking about blood mages who killed all the other mages and some of his friends. He didn't wanting to clean house because he hates mage, he wanted to clean house because he doesn't know how many of the remaining mages are not already blood mages. And there's no way for them to tell. In fact, even the First Enchanter himself agrees to the Rite of Anulment for the same reason, if that's what you asked for.

The templars weren't hunting Wynne's first apprentice out of hate. He was declared an apostate. They were just doing their duty. It is the law, it just is. It's no different from hunting down soldiers who ran away during wars for deserting their posts. Deserters are considered criminals if I'm not mistaken.

Your example of the Revered Mother sending Alistair to provoke a mage is a valid one.

Some means of defense against abominations is needed, but the Chantry goes overboard. Maybe not as far as the Qunari, but Mages are still unfairly discriminated against.

Mage control is needed, but not by a dogmatic group of zealots.

The Chantry does what it thinks is best. What other alternative do you propose?

My main point is that people unfairly blame the Chantry for trying its best to handle magic. If you let magic go unchecked, more cases of Connor will happen.

Modifié par Original182, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:45 .

[Anton de Staen]

I hate her. Even if her only motivation to get Jowan (And all that) was keeping her son. Do you have any idea how many people died just because of her?

[nuculerman]

 correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Isolde the one that kicks Allistair out of the castle?  She's kind of a b****.  She's definitely sleeping with her husband's brother.  She's a very typical noble woman who rose to that status simply because she was attractive.  I always save the boy on my good playthroughs but I've only bothered to save her once.  I don't care if you get mad at me, Allistair.  Lady Isolde is a stupid b**** and I was happy to see her sacrificed with blood magic.

On the flip side, if you're a mage, you can free the circle from the Chantry and Irving tells you that you're more than welcome back to the Circle whenever you want to come back.  In fact, he makes it quite clear he's looking for a replacement and his first choice has declined (Wynne).  In any event, I'm pretty sure, if you're a mage, you'll be able to change the "no family" rules.  Then again, I think Lady Isolde is more concerned that her son can no longer take the throne than she is about him losing his life.  Again, she's a fairly typical noble woman.  When I found out the Arl was poisoned I immediately thought it was her when I first met her, before I found out about the mage.

[Krigwin]

You should be able to punch Isolde the very first time you see her, christ she was annoying.

Isolde: Teagan! I need you inside m-, er I mean in the castle where all the undead are coming from. Alone. There's NO way this can be a trap!
Teagan: Yeah okay.
Me: Can't let you do that, Star Fox!
Isolde: Teagan! Who the hell is this wench?
Me: ***** say what?

Should've just knocked her out right then and then carried her loudmouthed arse back to the castle.