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[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Ah but... Tevinter mages seems perfectly willing to kidnap slaves and use them as components in blood magic. So I don't see how that wins you any points and I am technically for mages having freedom.

I never said that was particularily nice. I also said it's not much better elsewhere.
Oh yeah the elves in Ferelden are free. So free in fact that any tin pot tyrant can round them up and sell them off whenever he pleases.

I'm not even sure how much blood magic in this sense present-day Tevinter practices.

I think you are forgetting details and doing so consistently. At least we agree completely on the awesome that is Teagan. Back to point.

No, the elves don't have a life of cherries and free porn but they also have a chance, it is taking its time as racism does but it isn't Slavery and being used casually as blood components for a bargain.

The Tevinter Mage you beat down is more than happy to make a deal to boost your health using the slaves. He had to perfect this practice before offering it, IE, he knows a lot of blood magic or at least more than the average mage. He even offers it as a casual gift of niftyness for his freedom

[The Angry One]

I'm not saying Tevinters aren't blood mages since they certainly appear to be.

I'm just saying that the mass use of slave sacrifices might not be too common, Tevinter still has a Chantry after all.



However I still fail to see what real chance the elves have when someone like Loghain can so casually round them up and sell them off on such an absurd pretext.

[Nyaore]

I have mixed feelings about Isolde. On the one hand her actions allowed Loghain to poison her husband and gave her son reason to give himself up to a demon, yet on the other hand there is no evidence to say that neither of those things wouldn't have still happened if she hadn't gone out of her way to keep her son away from the Circle of Magi. Loghain would have just sent another person to do the job, and given Connor's untrained state he would have fallen prey to the demon regardless of whether or not Jowan had taught him some of the fundamentals of magic. It was just a matter of time.
Then there's her refusal to accept her role in the events that took place at Redcliffe, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to severely maim her for not taking responsibility, yet when it comes time to decide what to do with Connor she's the first to setup and offer her life so that her son could live.
I think she's an interesting character. Not someone I would want to spend extended periods of time around, that habit of drawling out someone's name would drive me insane after awhile (Teagaaaaaan), but she's not someone I feel a whole lot of animosity towards. Sure it annoys me that she and Teagan are rumored to be a couple, but then again Teagan doesn't strike me as someone who would engage in adultry - so she gets a free pass on that end.

Modifié par Nyaore, 05 décembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[BECC4]

Leftnt Sharpe wrote...

Am I the only person who found that their opinion of Isolde was totally clouded by their sheer hate of her accent? The first time I heard her say Teagan Teeegaaaaan I really wished there was a *put hands over ears and reapeat 'lalala I Can't hear you!' in a loud obnoxious voice* dialog option.

I second this.

I wished my pc had the option to respond "Who the **** is this screeching harpy?!"

Edit:  And every time she talks to me like something she would scrape off her shoe, I wish I could transfer the urge for me to forcefully shove her head up her own arse into the game.

I HATE her, silly biatch

Modifié par BECC4, 05 décembre 2009 - 07:56 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm not saying Tevinters aren't blood mages since they certainly appear to be.
I'm just saying that the mass use of slave sacrifices might not be too common, Tevinter still has a Chantry after all.

However I still fail to see what real chance the elves have when someone like Loghain can so casually round them up and sell them off on such an absurd pretext.

Because Loghain is so honorable in his other dealings...

Look, Loghain isn't playing by the rules. Howe ripped through the couslands and stole a number of other titles. Loghain ditched his king and spun it as the Grey Warden's fault. He was in a big position to crack down on elves, who do have a ****ty life but it can get better. Life can't get better as a blood mage test tube toy.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Nyaore wrote...

I have mixed feelings about Isolde. On the one hand her actions allowed Loghain to poison her husband and gave her son reason to give himself up to a demon, yet on the other hand there is no evidence to say that neither of those things wouldn't have still happened if she hadn't gone out of her way to keep her son away from the Circle of Magi. Loghain would have just sent another person to do the job, and given Connor's untrained state he would have fallen prey to the demon regardless of whether or not Jowan had taught him some of the fundamentals of magic.
Then there's her refusal to accept her role in the events that took place at Redcliffe, yet when it comes time to decide what to do with Connor she's the first to setup and offer her life so that her son could live.

I think she's an interesting character. Not someone I would want to spend extended periods of time around, that habit of drawling out someone's name would drive me insane after awhile (Teagaaaaaan), but she's not someone I feel a whole lot of animosity towards. Sure it annoys me that she and Teagan are rumored to be a couple, but then again Teagan doesn't strike me as someone who would engage in adultry - so she gets a free pass on that end.

Of all the things I hate about her, I didn't get a **** vibe so this thread was the first I heard about it...

[AtreiyaN7]

Hmm, let's see: she forced Arl Eamon to dump Alistair off with the Chantry because of her (incorrect) belief that he was Eamon's bastard child and unwisely tried to conceal Connor's magical abilties. Okay, well aside from being kind of b----y and showing extremely poor judgment, in the end she was a mother trying to protect her child.
I can't say I like her very much, just by virtue of the fact that she made Alistair's life miserable. Of course, I suppose if she hadn't, he wouldn't have ended up an almost-templar & Grey Warden - hmm. In any case, she might not be that nice, but I wouldn't call her a stupid cow for trying to protect her family (at least, in her mind that's what she was doing). I rather doubt that any reasonable person could have predicted the chain of events that occurred.
I, uh, may have though of Anora as a stupid cow once or twice though. <.< - shhhhh!

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[The Angry One]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm not saying Tevinters aren't blood mages since they certainly appear to be.
I'm just saying that the mass use of slave sacrifices might not be too common, Tevinter still has a Chantry after all.

However I still fail to see what real chance the elves have when someone like Loghain can so casually round them up and sell them off on such an absurd pretext.

Because Loghain is so honorable in his other dealings...

Look, Loghain isn't playing by the rules. Howe ripped through the couslands and stole a number of other titles. Loghain ditched his king and spun it as the Grey Warden's fault. He was in a big position to crack down on elves, who do have a ****ty life but it can get better. Life can't get better as a blood mage test tube toy.

My point is the elves position in Ferelden is pretty flimsy if any tin pot dictator can so casually sell them off to slavery.
Or in a possible epilogue where the Alienages are purged.... again. Which apparently *is* playing by the rules.

[Servant of Nature]

I don't like how she handled things, but she was a desperate mother, and on top of all that, she blamed herself for Connor's 'sinful nature', since her bloodline has quite a few male mages that were all 'sinful' (according to her, anyway). This, of course, doesn't justify what she did, but she didn't want to lose her son, depending on her age(I know she's a fair amount younger than Eamon..) she may have difficulty getting pregnant again as well, so that potentially removes the heir to the arling as well.



I wanted to hate her, but then I played through once, killing Connor, and I heard the distress and sorrow and guilty in her voice. "I am the penitent sinner, who shows mercy as he hopes it will be shown to him." ... at least that was the vibe I got from it all. She's meant to be a sort of 'grey' character. I wouldn't call her a bad person, nor a good person, really... she was raised a stuck up noblewoman, Orlesians in particular treat commoners with extreme disdain, especially compared to Fereldans (the Landsmeet, for instance, is a foreign concept to them, they don't understand why a King would want approval from 'lessers'), so it's really not surprising how she acts. She accepted help from Loghain, before Ostagar, although admitedly I do not know why an Orlesian woman would trust Loghain, but she was indeed desperate.



I like that she is such a controversial character, there's a lot to dislike about her, certainly... but it was her child and her family's reputation (which means a lot to nobility, especially to an Orlesian noble) was at stake.

[Faerell Gustani]

I hate her, but then again I hate religious fundamentalists.

[Axterix]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah let's do exactly what Loghain wants and bend knee to his insipid tyranny because of the Blight... that Loghain claims doesn't exist.
Wait what?

Also, do you think it was Teagan alone? He was merely the most vocal, but many of the freeholders weren't about to follow Loghain just because he put a crown on his head and Anora's too damn stupid to stop the throne being usurped from right under her.

Oh, I'm sure there's others.  But Teagan was the vocal point and that is the main "good" thing we see Teagan do.  I know why he did it, but I'm sure his brother would have handled it better.

Did you just miss the whole part where Teagan wants to fight outside, but the others convinced him to stay in the Chantry due to the fact that if everyone in the castle is dead, he must become the new Arl?

Yeah, that's what they told him.  But is that because they really care or because they talked some flattery to get him out of the way?  Pretty standard thing to do with an incompetent with political connections.  Put him in some isolated position where he can't do much harm but convince him he's doing good stuff. 

Maybe that is because they do care for him.  He might be a bookish type, not much of a fighter.  So for that reason they wanted him out of the way.  That'd make him an incompetent warrior though.  And one who was convinced to hide not because he wasn't a great fighter but by hyping his sense of self importance.  Though possibly he could know the truth, that the maids from the castle are better in a fight than he is, it just isn't the thing to say to strangers, would hurt the old rep, that'd be understandable.

But if he is capable of fighting decently, well, he's a noble.  It is his duty to fight for his people.  Regardless of the risk, he should have been out there.  He should not sit safely inside while untrained townsfolk fight desperately for their lives.

Yes clearly Teagan should be omniscient and omnipotent and know the ins and outs of a village and castle he doesn't rule.

So a stranger came into town, never been there before.  Spent part of a day talking to people.  Got them to kick it up a notch.  Potentially did so by promising one guy you'd put in a good word with Teagan or his brother or else paying 100 silver.

Now, why this is so is obvious from a game design stand point, so the player has stuff to do in town.  But that doesn't explain why Teagan didn't do his duty.

Basically, if the devs wanted him to be the good person that they seem to want to imply he is, he should have been injured in an earlier attack, possibly the first one, and that's why the wounded Teagan acts as the last line of defense.  But he isn't wounded.  And he's got little to no reason to stay in the Chantry during the daytime.

Wounded noble unfit for the main fight guarding the women and children?  Hero.  Unscathed noble hanging out in the chantry even when there is no attack happening?  Incompetent or coward.  Since he was willing to mouth off to Loghain, the latter seems unlikely, which leaves the former.

Yes and while you're in the castle, the undead run out and slaughter all the villagers.
Apparently Teagan doesn't want that.

But again, a good crew would help.  A greedy group could be paid.  And a bad group isn't going to help anyway, they'll just stand aside.  Worth noting that he doesn't even try and bargain with you, you help, I'll get you into the castle, I might know a way.  No, he pretty much just demands help and that's it.

Yeah Teagan's so incompitent, how dare he stand up to a tyrant and be unable to predict the future.

He is.  We don't see him doing anything really noteworthy.  But there's a huge chasm between him and his brother. 

That is necessary from a game design standpoint, without it, we wouldn't need his brother, which would remove one of the 3 gather allies quests.  But that also means he isn't capable of doing what his brother does.  He lacks the influence.  He lacks the ability to inspire others.

Basically, there really isn't much to inspire all the Teagan like.  He might be a nice guy, but he doesn't seem like the guy you want in charge in a time of crisis, though at least he didn't completely fall apart.

Modifié par Axterix, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[Axterix]

The Angry One wrote...

According to.... Chantry dogma.
Though yes the blood magic sacrifice thing would be bad, but then.. is the abuse and murder of slaves a mage-only thing? I think not. They're slaves!

No, Chantry Dogma is that magic should be used for people.

Tevinter seeding the fields of hatred stems from their actions.  And note that this isn't unique to lands where the Chantry has influence.    Get Sten to open up as to why Magic is evil sometime, why his people treat mages even more harshly than the Chantry.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Axterix wrote...

He might be a bookish type, not much of a fighter.  So for that reason they wanted him out of the way.  That'd make him an incompetent warrior though.

Lemme guess, you weren't paying attention when the Archdemon died because Teagan was out there kicking ass on the battlefield...

So your incompetent warrior theory is off there.

[The Angry One]

I speak of the Chantry dogma that blames Tevinter for the Black City, Darkspawn and eating puppies (probably).

As for the Qunari, mages are powerful, and different. Of course cultures would independantly come up with reasons to persecute them; the Chantry's inane scribblings aren't the direct cause of anti-mage sentiment, they're a result of it. But through the Chantry they are in fact persecuted.

[Tianwyn]

Leftnt Sharpe wrote...



Am I the only person who found that their opinion of Isolde was totally clouded by their sheer hate of her accent? The first time I heard her say Teagan Teeegaaaaan I really wished there was a *put hands over ears and reapeat 'lalala I Can't hear you!' in a loud obnoxious voice* dialog option.

This.

[Axterix]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Lemme guess, you weren't paying attention when the Archdemon died because Teagan was out there kicking ass on the battlefield...

So your incompetent warrior theory is off there.

Can't say I really noticed Teagan on the battlefield, no.  Guess he was just one more of lots of soldiers.

But considering he fought pretty well under demon control, I'm not really inclined to think of him as the bookish type.  And I do not buy him staying back to protect himself.  Especially when everyone basically expects the town to be wiped out this night.  At the very least, he should be part of a building the defenses 80s montage, complete with cheesy montage footage.  But he isn't.

Basically, the devs screwed up.  They should have made him wounded in an earlier attack, most likely the first, that he is why the town held that first night.

Given that the devs didn't do that though, it means he failed to lead well, failed to do his duty.  He could have been out there, but wasn't.

And because of that, I don't respect him and I don't think he's great or even good.  At best, mediocre.

[nuculerman]

 wait, what?  By your definition someone has to get themselves injured in a battle to prove they were taking part in it?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Axterix wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Lemme guess, you weren't paying attention when the Archdemon died because Teagan was out there kicking ass on the battlefield...

So your incompetent warrior theory is off there.

Can't say I really noticed Teagan on the battlefield, no.  Guess he was just one more of lots of soldiers.

But considering he fought pretty well under demon control, I'm not really inclined to think of him as the bookish type.  And I do not buy him staying back to protect himself.  Especially when everyone basically expects the town to be wiped out this night.  At the very least, he should be part of a building the defenses 80s montage, complete with cheesy montage footage.  But he isn't.

Basically, the devs screwed up.  They should have made him wounded in an earlier attack, most likely the first, that he is why the town held that first night.

Given that the devs didn't do that though, it means he failed to lead well, failed to do his duty.  He could have been out there, but wasn't.

And because of that, I don't respect him and I don't think he's great or even good.  At best, mediocre.

Well think of this. He is the only noble influence after the Arl. So if he dies, they are screwed with no voice. Sure he is a decent fighter but they can't risk him on the front lines. Thus they have him inside as the last defense for the women and children.

Also, Murdock is the Mayor of the town so he should/would know more about getting things together. So why have both of them outside? Ever hear of "Too many cooks in the kitchen?" That is what he would have been, a leader they didn't need outside. It would have been nice to see him do stuff but I can understand the developer thinking. Let the PC do stuff.

[The Angry One]

If you leave the village to it's own devices, Teagan is left wounded in the Chantry when you return.

Happy now?

[Axterix]

nuculerman wrote...

 wait, what?  By your definition someone has to get themselves injured in a battle to prove they were taking part in it?

By my definition, someone has to take part of a battle to have taken part of the battle.

Now, the people in the battle can die.  The devs don't want Teagan to die, since he's needed to advance the plot.  Because of that, they remove him from the field of battle, putting him in the Chantry.  Okay, fine with that from a game design stand point.

What I don't buy is him being in the Chantry from a non-design standpoint.  He should be a capable warrior.  He should, as a good and proper noble the devs seem to want him to be, be out in the fight.  Not letting townsfolk with little to no military training, crappy gear, do the fighting.  He should be leading the militia, so that they fight better, more effectively and, consequently, have a better chance of winning.

In short, to be what the devs seem to want him to be, he needs a good reason to be in the Chantry.  Saving his life isn't it, especially when everyone seems to expect the town to be wiped out anyway (which would probably make him dead, if not tonight, then the next).  Last line of defense doesn't make too much sense either, as he'd have a greater impact on the battle by being in frontline. 

But wounded, so cannot be part of the main fight, therefore relegated to last line of defense, that works.  It means he can and did fight.  He did risk his life.  And now that he's wounded, he's still doing what he can.

It makes all the difference between a guy who is hiding because he believes his life is more important than others or a guy who gets in the way so gets relegated to an out of the way post where he won't get in the way and a guy who is heroic, did what he could and, now that he can no longer do that, now is still doing what he can, inspite of his injuries. The difference between coward, incompetent, and hero.

[NarcissaArtois]

I found her annoying for how she dealt with child Alistair...and how it was really her fault for the dead, and the demons, and the dying arl...but as a mother...I would do everything to protect my son as well.



On the note of a Isolde/Tegan affair...yeah, I think the game hints at that. Especially when Isolde says Tegan you are alive oh thank the maker if I would never forgive myself if something happened to you. Funny, I dont recall hearing that about the Arl. She doesnt even seem overly upset that the mage she hired poisoned her husband...sure she asks you to help find the ashes to save him...but it just doesnt feel like the same genuine concern she felt for tegan and connor.

[The Angry One]

They already have Murdock leading the militia, and Ser Perth with his knights.

Teagan would not only be redundant, it would be too much of a risk. Again, he's the last in the Guerrin line if Eamon, Isolde and Connor are dead. He must survive or the Arldom dies, and that seems important to the people of Redcliffe.

[Axterix]

The Angry One wrote...

If you leave the village to it's own devices, Teagan is left wounded in the Chantry when you return.
Happy now?

Nope, he should be wounded from the start or else he should flat out state that he isn't worth much in a fight.  Again, because I do not buy him hiding in the Chantry while he is fit, healthy, and well armed.  Especially with the town in as desperate of a situation as it is.

It just doesn't jive.

Think about it, if you were playing a noble background character, playing the goody-goody or duty above all else type, would you sit in the Chantry or be out in the fight?  Would you send commoners out to die for you?  Or would you order some knight, probably some wounded or too old to be really effective one, to guard the chantry, or maybe some of those commoners, while you went out and did your duty?

If he has a physical reason to not fight, I could understand.  But without that, there's something mental going on, a flaw in his character.

[Axterix]

The Angry One wrote...

They already have Murdock leading the militia, and Ser Perth with his knights.
Teagan would not only be redundant, it would be too much of a risk. Again, he's the last in the Guerrin line if Eamon, Isolde and Connor are dead. He must survive or the Arldom dies, and that seems important to the people of Redcliffe.

But the thing that would inspire that sort of loyalty is the fact that he would go out and fight for them.  This isn't some minor skirmish, where it'd make sense he hang back in safety.  This is a situation where the town expects to be wiped out.  Which means he's most likely going to die, Chantry or not.  And if they think they can be safe in the Chantry, well, they'd pack everyone in.

Again, it does not make sense, not unless he isn't the man people seem to want to think he is.

An injury, sustained during the first night or when they tried to escape the town, that'd address that issue.  Without it, the flaw is purely mental, a case of him putting himself before his people.

[Curlain]

I did find it weird that Tegan was in full armour when we first see him hearing Loghain proclaim himself regent and tells him to get lost, but he gets back to Redcliffe, is under attack by hoards of undead, and he's chucked his armour and has slipped into his noble clothes.



Mabye he thinks it gives him an unfair advantage against the undead to wear armour fighting them