202 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

They already have Murdock leading the militia, and Ser Perth with his knights.
Teagan would not only be redundant, it would be too much of a risk. Again, he's the last in the Guerrin line if Eamon, Isolde and Connor are dead. He must survive or the Arldom dies, and that seems important to the people of Redcliffe.

I actually just said that. XD

[Jisai]

th3warr1or wrote...

I hate her. She's like really really goddamn annoying. I felt so glad hitting her, I just wish I could have done it without killing Connor.

You posted a topic about your dislike for Isolde   ....really? 

[DarkSpiral]

But the thing that would inspire that sort of loyalty is the fact that
he would go out and fight for them.  This isn't some minor skirmish,
where it'd make sense he hang back in safety.  This is a situation
where the town expects to be wiped out.  Which means he's most likely
going to die, Chantry or not.  And if they think they can be safe in
the Chantry, well, they'd pack everyone in.

No. No, that really isn't what would inspire loyalty. Are you loyal to the President of the United States, or Queen Elizabeth, because you see them out there on the battlefield? Of course not. You don't risk the important leaders like that. They make appearances, they inspire morale, and then they get the hell out of the way. You're loyal to them because of WHAT they are, not necessarily who they are or what they've done. It's a matter of what they represent: The country (the bann and/or the alrdom, in the case of the game). Not themselves as a person.

You do not put the General on the front line. You leave him in the back where the troops know he is safe, where he can direct the combat. Perth talked him down from being out and about in the town, because he can do the most good inside the Chantry. Outside he could be taken down before anyone realized it. His death would have demoralized the entire militia. Morale is a significant factor in that situation; it comes up in dialogue with both Perth and Murdock.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:13 .

[Roryn]

DarkSpiral wrote...

You do not put the General on the front line. You leave him in the back where the troops know he is safe, where he can direct the combat. Perth talked him down from being out and about in the town, because he can do the most good inside the Chantry. Outside he could be taken down before anyone realized it. His death would have demoralized the entire militia. Morale is a significant factor in that situation; it comes up in dialogue with both Perth and Murdock.

That depends on where you are from, Rome put it's Generals on the frontline, and if they weren't troop morale was usually lower. Of course now a days I wouldn't trust 99.99% of our leaders to pick up a rock without trying to screw somebody over.

As for Isolde I don't like her, I see where she comes from, but I don't like her. But then again I don't like nobles too much anyway. On the Arl and Teggan, I think Bioware did a revearse FFVI on them, They remind me of Edgar and Sabin too much really.

[th3warr1or]

Jisai wrote...

th3warr1or wrote...

I hate her. She's like really really goddamn annoying. I felt so glad hitting her, I just wish I could have done it without killing Connor.

You posted a topic about your dislike for Isolde   ....really? 

And seeing that there are 6 pages, I'm not the only one.

[Kuravid]

 I just hate the idea that she might be having an affair with Bann Teagan. I want the opportunity to have him all to myself!

[menasure]

stupid cow does not cut it. she's one of the most despicable figures in game in my opinion. she's basically responsible for wiping out a whole village just because she wanted to protect her son and even when it has become perfectly clear how many deads and undeads there are she drags bann teagin in and keeps on crying about her son while she seems to consider the situation of her husband and the villagers a mere side effect.
the only "good" but even then driven by selfish mostives deed she does is volunteering to giver her life in the blood ritual -if you made the choices in game to allow that- and i gladly accepted that option LOL.

Modifié par menasure, 05 décembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[cglasgow]

re: Bann Teagan -- as mentioned, with both Arl Eamon and Connor missing and presumed dead for all anyone knows, he is the last living heir. At this point, Arl Eamon's knights are being entirely responsible to ask Teagan to stay in the rear, not the point. (Note that Teagan's job was final rearguard... anything that actually made it in the Chantry door, he was supposed to fight before it reached the refugees. Its not like he was hiding behind the revered mother or anything.)



Heck, remember the Human Noble origin? How worried Teryna Cousland was that both her husband and her older son were going to the same battle? How much do you want to bet that if Fergus had been an only child, they'd have made him stay home? The only reason Bryce Cousland was risking both himself and his heir at the same time is because he had a spare waiting -- you.

[Axterix]

Roryn wrote...

That depends on where you are from, Rome put it's Generals on the frontline, and if they weren't troop morale was usually lower. Of course now a days I wouldn't trust 99.99% of our leaders to pick up a rock without trying to screw somebody over.

Exactly, for their culture, yes, he should be fighting. 

That is his duty, to protect his people.  Modern viewpoints do not apply.  Especially in a situation as desperate as Redcliffe is.  Nor is he ruling a nation of 250 million.  It'd be one thing if people were sacrificing themselves so he could escape.  But this isn't an escape, so he should be fighting.

Yeah, the people can say he needs to be protected.  But a capable warrior who is also a true noble worthy of his blood would acknowledge that and then fight anyway.  And his people would love him all the more for it.  There's also future considerations.  Because word would get around.  That when the town he was in was engaged in a life or death struggle, he hid in the Chantry.  He didn't fight.  He didn't direct the battle.  No, he stayed in the Chantry to "protect the women and children."  He would be branded a coward.

There are really only 2 ways to look at Teagan:
1.  He isn't a good warrior.  He knows this and therefore has gotten out of the way to leave it to the people who do.
2.  He is weak, either let himself be convinced to not do his duty or, even worse, truly believes he should be saved over the lives of his people.

Teagan just isn't his brother.

If the devs wanted him to be more noble, more worthy, they needed to have him injured, so he had a proper reason to not be on the frontline, protecting his people.  They goofed.

[Axterix]

cglasgow wrote...

Heck, remember the Human Noble origin? How worried Teryna Cousland was that both her husband and her older son were going to the same battle? How much do you want to bet that if Fergus had been an only child, they'd have made him stay home? The only reason Bryce Cousland was risking both himself and his heir at the same time is because he had a spare waiting -- you.

Actually, they've got multiple spares, your nephew as well.  They still don't let you go.  Blame your mother, she just doesn't want to risk losing her husband and both children.

And when the castle gets attacked, your mother doesn't try to hide you.  She fights alongside you.  The knight guarding the main gate?  He doesn't try and get you to not fight.  He holds the line because it buys you and your family time to escape.  He expects you to fight your way out.

Also worth noting that the King, who doesn't have an heir, fights with his army.  Now, he's a bit glory obsessed, shouldn't have put himself in that risk just to become a hero in a story, but he fought.  Part of the culture.

In Redcliffe, the backs are against the wall.  There is no escape.  The town will most likely fall.  He should be out leading his troops.  A knight past his prime should be last line of defense.  A skilled warrior, one who has trained in martial combat for much of his life, one who would have good gear?  He should be in the fray. 

This isn't some large scale battle, with armies to be commanded, where being removed from the battle has certain advantages.  Here, he is one of the most capable fighters in the village.  And he's hiding with the women and children.  However he might try to justify it, that is how it'll be viewed.

He doesn't act the way a good noble should.

[cglasgow]

Um, actually, during the castle attack sequence, both your mother and Ser Gilmore tell you to stop doing glorious acts of defiance and get your butt to the secret tunnel, fast. The only reason you're fighting at all is because Howe's troops are between you and the only route out. If they'd had a clear exit from the fight, your mother would have dragged you into it.

Heck, there is a dialogue option where you can say 'Let's take the fight to them!' and the Teryna will read you the riot act for even thinking about it.

Also, little Oren is indeed another possible Cousland heir, but he'll need someone alive to be his regent for the next 15 years or so, hence them holding you and the Teryna back from the war as well.

Modifié par cglasgow, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[Giygas Starman]

th3warr1or wrote...

I hate her. She's like really really goddamn annoying. I felt so glad hitting her, I just wish I could have done it without killing Connor.

+ %/¤/?

[ChemicalGreen]

cglasgow wrote...

Um, actually, during the castle attack sequence, both your mother and Ser Gilmore tell you to stop doing glorious acts of defiance and get your butt to the secret tunnel, fast. The only reason you're fighting at all is because Howe's troops are between you and the only route out. There is a dialogue option where you can say 'Let's take the fight to them!' and your mother will read you the riot act for even thinking about it.

Also, little Oren is indeed another possible Cousland heir, but he'll need someone alive to be his regent for the next 15 years or so, hence them holding you and the Teryna back from the war as well.

Uhh, wasn't the little boy and his mother (your sister-in-law) killed? At least on the female origin this is so. Your mother even remarks that Howe isn't taking any hostages, which is all the more reason for you to flee.

[vocalemuse]

Kuravid wrote...

 I just hate the idea that she might be having an affair with Bann Teagan. I want the opportunity to have him all to myself!

I don't think he is, because if you save Bevin and talk to Kaitlyn after the battle in the Chantry (plus give her at least 1 sovereign for the sword) they move to Denerim to be with family. Then in the epilogue, it says that Kaitlyn becomes a successful merchant and meets Teagan at some formal affair - then they get married soon after. xD

[Mnemnosyne]

There's two main things that irk me about Isolde. First, she never truly takes responsibility. She admits it's her fault - but only as far as what's happened to her son and husband goes. She never shows a whit of care or interest in the soldiers and villagers that have died because of what she allowed. Indeed, if you save her and Connor by sending Jowan into the Fade, she'll flip out if you suggest releasing Jowan, despite him having risked his life for her son when he didn't have to, when he could have just run away and disappeared again, but she still takes little to no responsibility herself. A little owning up to her own mistakes might have made her slightly sympathetic, but instead she's just a screeching harpy that cares nothing for anyone but herself and her son. She'll sacrifice herself to save her son, but she never, ever considers the lives of the many others around her to be important enough to consider that maybe killing Connor is the only way. Even when she goes ahead and kills him herself, the only reason she does so is to end his pain - never because the demon might get loose and hurt hundreds more innocents.



The second thing that really irritates me about her is her intentionally leading Teagan to what she can only presume is death or enslavement without coming clean and explaining the truth of the situation. She knows Teagan well enough to know that he is no mage and could not possibly remove the demon from Connor. Yet she gets him to enter the castle alone, while also hiding key knowledge about the demon and situation from both him and the player character. If, at that point she came clean and were honest about the situation, even if she tried to find a way to save Connor still, at that point being honest would make her slightly less despicable a person, but right to the end she lies and leads Teagan and you into a trap. She even reports back to the demon about you, despite the fact that she's one of the only people who isn't being forcibly controlled - note that "Connor" mentions "the ones you told me about, mother," clearly noting that Isolde ratted you out to the demon the instant she got back, rather than it being forced to pry the information out of Teagan, who was under mind control, for example.



It's really the fact that she cares about nothing and no one other than herself and her son, and yet is simultaneously weak and useless, that makes her the most loathed character in the game, to me. None of the actual villains in the game evoke the same kind of hate as she does, because they all have more redeeming qualities than she does, even Arl Howe.

[cglasgow]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

Uhh, wasn't the little boy and his mother (your sister-in-law) killed? At least on the female origin this is so. Your mother even remarks that Howe isn't taking any hostages, which is all the more reason for you to flee.

I was referring to Bryce Cousland's reasoning in taking both himself and his heir to the same battlefield, a calculation that took into account that both his younger child and grandson would be safely away from Ostagar.   Obviously all these calculations were upset by Howe's betrayal.

[Krigwin]

Oren and his mother are both slaughtered and indeed you get some special dialogue if you go into their room during the escape (as well as some hilarious foreshadowing dialogue if you talk to Oren prior to the night). That friend of Eleanor's, the one that had the son you could bang, is also killed, for pretty much no reason other than she was staying in the wrong room at the wrong time.

The only person other than you who gets away is Fergus, and that's because he was already sent to the battle (which was also because of you). Since he was already gone when the attack occurred he has no real evidence of Howe's betrayal and his word alone would probably not be enough to stir up any real charges, and it's likely he would lose his claim to the Cousland name as well if Howe's "they were traitors!" story gained any real traction.

Make no mistake, if you hadn't escaped, the Cousland line would be eradicated, and I imagine in any origin other than the Human Noble, the entire family is just massacred and the Couslands fade into history.

In both the Human Noble origin and the Redcliffe situation, the guards were doing the right thing. Keeping the nobility alive is more important than any possible military might one person could add to their ranks. The soldiers were just being responsible holding Teagan back in the Chantry, they had no idea what was going on in the castle and anyone would've guessed Eamon and Connor were already dead.

[Grumblesnort]

I only saved the wretched trophy piece because I figured I could lean on the Arl harder if I hadn't offed his wife or kid. Try a playthrough as an elf, she comes off with "It's an elf Connor, we have them here at the castle"....



Indeed.... excuse me woman, I need to go let a bloodmage out of your basement.....

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

She was annoying in the fact she was so religious, but overall annoying....no. She's a mother. She did what mothers do. Connor is her only child, and him showing magic, well...that means the Circle. I know it's hard for some to understand, but generally, mothers really don't like seeing their beloved children taken from them, and will do desperate, crazy things to ensure this does not happen. It ain't limited to human mothers, either. I dare any of you to approach a mother cat or dog you don't know and try stealing a kitten or puppy. I'll take bets on just how long your hands and other body parts will survive. Even better, go seek out a bears den with a mama bear nursing her cubs, and see if you even get close enough to pick a cub up. Snowballs in hell have better chances of survival.



I do respect that Isolde's maternal love was strong enough that she defied her religion and social norms and employed means considered criminally offensive by both, even if it was a foolish thing to do and resulted in dire consequences for all. As much as it annoyed me, I hardly hold such a descision against her. In her shoes, I'd probably do the same damned thing.

[Mistriever Lassenarra]

Couple of points...

- I agree Isolde is a deeply flawed woman, born into a position of elitism. In medieval culture nobles are more valuable by virture of being born into a higher station in life. Whether it is true or not is irrelevant, modern views in western culture do not apply. So her birthright and Orlesian ancestry (since the Orlesians saw fit to conqueor and brutalize the people of Ferelden I tend to infer they consider themselves superior to their neighbors who smell of wet dog) have taught her to believe she is better and more valuable than the villagers. While I do not feel hate for her, I have no respect or use for her. She is a stereotypical noble woman fit only for producing an heir. We are told she is a deeply pious woman but when confronted with a crisis of faith she fails to stand by her principles. Her son is attuned to magic and therefore susceptible to demons in the fade, she chooses to harbor an apostate rather than submit her son to the will of the Maker as interpreted by the Chantry. 

- I can not fault her for ignorance, woman were kept ingnorant of history and events for millenia prior to the modern age, even noble women. At best a noble woman might be literate and trained in music and dance but would never be expected to accomplish more than running a household and producing sons. A noble woman despite her greater education has a chamberlain to see to the house so has only one responsibility, producing an heir. While the women of Thedas, at least Ferelden and Orlais, seem to have the right to become merchants and enjoy some independence from men there are fewer women in these roles than men. I infer it is not entirely unusual as no dialog indicates surprise for the Orlesian merchant in Denerim based on gender or Kaitlyn's rise in the epilogue. Despite this it seems women are still considered inferior to men for the most part, including Anora's father as regent being considered logical as he is her father (Bartender in Lothering dialog options). And I agree it is only hindsight that shows just how bad her decsion truly is. Had Loghain not directed her husband poisoned the Demon would have had far less leverage over Conner and the Arl could have perhaps managed the situation. But that would have made for a much shorter story.

- Her stupidity is the result of her emotional attachment to her son, understandable. She is desperate, desperate people don't make particularly good decisions. Look at the townsfolk of Redcliffe, after the first night all the survivors should have fled. Their desperation to cling to their homes and families, the only life they know, nearlly leads to their destruction and would have if the PC had not intervened. Does thismean she is intelligent? No, simply that she is human and when her reason is impaired she fails to make rational decisions. In the context of the story she is simply out of her element and lacks the ability to adapt. Her desperation for Bann Teagan to come to the castle is the desperate hope that somehow he will know what to do and can save he son. The fact that a noble can somehow defeat a demon in the fade with reason or charm is idle fancy is beside the point. She believes Teagan is her only hope and desperately wants to believe there is still hope. There is, the PC but again it makes for a better story.

- I concede her voice is shrill and annoying, while I normally like the French accent used by Orlesian characters, when used to nag it is far less enjoyable. Combined with her elitism (even when I am playing a Cousland, heir to a Tethyr, not a mere Arl, lower in rank/status) and whining makes her someone I would avoid in social circles. She exercises poor judgemet in a crisis but her husband leads not her. She must have some redeeming quality however, as the Arl chose to marry her despite the anti-Orlesian feelings shared by the majority of Ferelden at the time.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

She was annoying in the fact she was so religious, but overall annoying....no. She's a mother. She did what mothers do. Connor is her only child, and him showing magic, well...that means the Circle. I know it's hard for some to understand, but generally, mothers really don't like seeing their beloved children taken from them, and will do desperate, crazy things to ensure this does not happen. It ain't limited to human mothers, either. I dare any of you to approach a mother cat or dog you don't know and try stealing a kitten or puppy. I'll take bets on just how long your hands and other body parts will survive. Even better, go seek out a bears den with a mama bear nursing her cubs, and see if you even get close enough to pick a cub up. Snowballs in hell have better chances of survival.

I do respect that Isolde's maternal love was strong enough that she defied her religion and social norms and employed means considered criminally offensive by both, even if it was a foolish thing to do and resulted in dire consequences for all. As much as it annoyed me, I hardly hold such a descision against her. In her shoes, I'd probably do the same damned thing.

Um, you would have your kid consort with by all information you have, somebody almost guaranteed to make him an abomination, in order to "save him?" I didn't find anything motherly about keeping the boy from the circle considered that everything she knew said it would be worse with what she was doing.

If he goes to the Circle, you can visit. If you bring an apostate to your son... You get what you pay for. o_O

I actually detailed all this out on the pages back.

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

If you leave the village to it's own devices, Teagan is left wounded in the Chantry when you return.
Happy now?

Only wounded? 

[ChemicalGreen]

I'm sorry, but I just cannot fathom this excuse of "but she's a mother!" as an all-blanketing amnesty to everything Isolde does. Her choices are stupid, selfish and destructive. How does reproducing make you completely incapable of critical thinking? Why is being a mother a valid excuse to get away with murder? Or in this case, a massacre?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

ChemicalGreen wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just cannot fathom this excuse of "but she's a mother!" as an all-blanketing amnesty to everything Isolde does. Her choices are stupid, selfish and destructive. How does reproducing make you completely incapable of critical thinking? Why is being a mother a valid excuse to get away with murder? Or in this case, a massacre?

Glad we are of one mind, I think you will like my reasoning from the other pages. Summarized, all her information said that bringing an apostate to teach her son was like bringing in a pedophile to teach your kid to avoid strangers.

[Mistriever Lassenarra]

As for Teagan,

Not a coward, probably incompetent, certainly not a Hero.

By virtue of the culture Bann Teagan should be a least a trained warrior. He is a male of a noble family. Medieval Culture was one of might makes right (Loghain using force to put down his detractors tells me Ferelden follows suit, he only poisoned the ARl because he was too popular and influential to take on directly) and even less fit nobleman were trained in combat to better defend or exploit the commonfolk depending on the regime. So he is most certainly at least a trained and well equipped fighter, if not an exceptional one. Also I find it unlikely he controls a seperate Bannorn from Redcliffe but instead serves as his brother's second and was at the Landsmeet representing Redcliffe when the troubles started. Why else would he not have solicited help while in Denerim, or simply called his own forces to aid his brother at Redcliffe if he possesed them.

He does not flee at the first sign of trouble but stays with his people, facing the same fate. A coward would have fled with whatever wealth he could to the estate in Denerim. The fact that he neither takes charge nor makes a reasonable plan of action points to some level of incompetence. Sticking to the plan of digging in and waiting to be wiped out seems a little inept to me. Luckily a hero shows up on his door to solve the problem for him. May be a genetic fault as Alistair is much the same way, wracked with the inability to make a decision and incapable of true leadership. You can "harden" him somewhat but he'll never be other than a follower. Even when "leading" his army against the darkspawn in Denerim your character is the crutch he leans on. Arl Eamon seems to be the family exception rather than the rule. A hero would have either led his people to safety, perhaps even dieing with his knights defending their flight, or solved the problem. If four starngers can solve the problems then surely the Bann and four trained knights could have stormed the castle and overwhelmed the undead. But the PC and companions are exceptional heroes so he most likely would have died in the attempt and his "heroic death" would soon be forgotten. So for those of you wanting to end up with Teagan, just hook up with Alistair and harden him up. The two are quite similar once you get past Alistair's defense mechanism of wise cracks.