202 réponses à ce sujet

[ChemicalGreen]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

ChemicalGreen wrote...

I'm sorry, but I just cannot fathom this excuse of "but she's a mother!" as an all-blanketing amnesty to everything Isolde does. Her choices are stupid, selfish and destructive. How does reproducing make you completely incapable of critical thinking? Why is being a mother a valid excuse to get away with murder? Or in this case, a massacre?

Glad we are of one mind, I think you will like my reasoning from the other pages. Summarized, all her information said that bringing an apostate to teach her son was like bringing in a pedophile to teach your kid to avoid strangers.

Yeah, I remember your earlier posts... want to be my BHFF?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...


Um, you would have your kid consort with by all information you have, somebody almost guaranteed to make him an abomination, in order to "save him?" I didn't find anything motherly about keeping the boy from the circle considered that everything she knew said it would be worse with what she was doing.

If he goes to the Circle, you can visit. If you bring an apostate to your son... You get what you pay for. o_O

I actually detailed all this out on the pages back.

Oh, her choice was not a good one, nor was it an intelligent one. However, people do desperate things even when they know better. Even sending a kid away to the circle was probably more than she could bear, visitation and all. She isn't a strong or forward thinking mother, but she is still one.

I don't think having an apostate is going to guarantee abomination status, thats mostly Chantry dogma. Remember, you have the Mage's collective who pretty much function fine without Chantry supervision. When Isolde tells you what she did and why, she said she believed that Jowan could teach the kid how to control his talents. It's unlikely she really believed him in any danger, or refused to believe so. It's more an act of wilful stupidity. 

It is the spirit of such a descision I respect, even if it was a stupid descision that could have cost her alot more. While to the rest of us, the idea of the kid living in the Circle but mother being able to visit doesn't sound so bad, its still seperation of a mother and young child, which is traumatic when you happen to be the parties involved. She reacted instinctively to such a threat.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Mistriever Lassenarra wrote...

As for Teagan,

Not a coward, probably incompetent, certainly not a Hero.

By virtue of the culture Bann Teagan should be a least a trained warrior. He is a male of a noble family. Medieval Culture was one of might makes right (Loghain using force to put down his detractors tells me Ferelden follows suit, he only poisoned the ARl because he was too popular and influential to take on directly) and even less fit nobleman were trained in combat to better defend or exploit the commonfolk depending on the regime. So he is most certainly at least a trained and well equipped fighter, if not an exceptional one. Also I find it unlikely he controls a seperate Bannorn from Redcliffe but instead serves as his brother's second and was at the Landsmeet representing Redcliffe when the troubles started. Why else would he not have solicited help while in Denerim, or simply called his own forces to aid his brother at Redcliffe if he possesed them.

He does not flee at the first sign of trouble but stays with his people, facing the same fate. A coward would have fled with whatever wealth he could to the estate in Denerim. The fact that he neither takes charge nor makes a reasonable plan of action points to some level of incompetence. Sticking to the plan of digging in and waiting to be wiped out seems a little inept to me. Luckily a hero shows up on his door to solve the problem for him. May be a genetic fault as Alistair is much the same way, wracked with the inability to make a decision and incapable of true leadership. You can "harden" him somewhat but he'll never be other than a follower. Even when "leading" his army against the darkspawn in Denerim your character is the crutch he leans on. Arl Eamon seems to be the family exception rather than the rule. A hero would have either led his people to safety, perhaps even dieing with his knights defending their flight, or solved the problem. If four starngers can solve the problems then surely the Bann and four trained knights could have stormed the castle and overwhelmed the undead. But the PC and companions are exceptional heroes so he most likely would have died in the attempt and his "heroic death" would soon be forgotten. So for those of you wanting to end up with Teagan, just hook up with Alistair and harden him up. The two are quite similar once you get past Alistair's defense mechanism of wise cracks.

Considering how hard I kicked his ass and a bunch of guards and how much better equipped I was than he, I can't agree with you on those terms.

He didn't have a lot of options. The most defensible option in town had undead in it. Leaving the town would subject people to darkspawn raids. He wasn't a mage, a templar, a rogue, and a badass. You saw how many of those militia folks fell and judging from his weapons and complete lack of armor, he didn't have any good options of killing the undead on his own.

Gotta remember, his army was peasants... Low moraled, ill equipped, peasants...

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I don't think having an apostate is going to guarantee abomination status, thats mostly Chantry dogma. Remember, you have the Mage's collective who pretty much function fine without Chantry supervision. When Isolde tells you what she did and why, she said she believed that Jowan could teach the kid how to control his talents. It's unlikely she really believed him in any danger, or refused to believe so. It's more an act of wilful stupidity. 

It is the spirit of such a descision I respect, even if it was a stupid descision that could have cost her alot more. While to the rest of us, the idea of the kid living in the Circle but mother being able to visit doesn't sound so bad, its still seperation of a mother and young child, which is traumatic when you happen to be the parties involved. She reacted instinctively to such a threat.

The bolded made me facepalm. We aren't talking about my beliefs. I repeat this again because Angry One kept making the same point. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MY BELIEFS.

K, got that covered. My beliefs are irrelevant. I like Apostates. I play Maleficarum. I am talking about Isolde's beliefs. Seriously, think about it. She is a pious woman. I will say that again, she is a PIOUS woman.

So, I really really hate that I am being this patronizing but this is the fifth damn time I've had to point this out. I love you dear but you need to think from Her perspective. From what we know of Her Information, IE Chantry Dogma, hiring an apostate was like inviting a pedo to babysit your kid.

If my sons need me to gamble, as their father I need to at least hedge my bets. I'd bribe a Circle Mage, same risks but at least they have a maginally less chance of leading him into demons.

So yea, my platonically loved friend, that is my problem with the whole scenario. Her information, HERS, stated this was a dumb idea. Not just dumb but by her information, this was almost easy math. A + B = Demon Town Rape.

I could have accepted it better if there was some logic to her solution. Ya know, anything but an apostate.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...


The bolded made me facepalm. We aren't talking about my beliefs. I repeat this again because Angry One kept making the same point. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MY BELIEFS.

K, got that covered. My beliefs are irrelevant. I like Apostates. I play Maleficarum. I am talking about Isolde's beliefs. Seriously, think about it. She is a pious woman. I will say that again, she is a PIOUS woman.

So, I really really hate that I am being this patronizing but this is the fifth damn time I've had to point this out. I love you dear but you need to think from Her perspective. From what we know of Her Information, IE Chantry Dogma, hiring an apostate was like inviting a pedo to babysit your kid.

If my sons need me to gamble, as their father I need to at least hedge my bets. I'd bribe a Circle Mage, same risks but at least they have a maginally less chance of leading him into demons.

So yea, my platonically loved friend, that is my problem with the whole scenario. Her information, HERS, stated this was a dumb idea. Not just dumb but by her information, this was almost easy math. A + B = Demon Town Rape.

I could have accepted it better if there was some logic to her solution. Ya know, anything but an apostate.

I know what you are saying. 

I also know of real world examples where people, despite their religous beliefs and convictions that x will happen if y is done, will toss those aside and do things that they have been taught are abominable, sinful, and might doom their souls and take a chance instead that said ""sin"" or danger might  spare a loved one from an unpleasant situation.

It's like certain religions teach that things like, say, getting blood transfusions or organ transplants are not only bad things, but things that could doom the soul as well. As far as those persons are concerned, these things are indeed evil, because those are the beliefs that shape their lives. Yet we see cases where said believers will indeed defy and break these serious tabboos and go ahead with said ""mortal sin"" when the lives, well being, longevity, ect of their kids are at stake. So, despite believing that their choice to defy the rules of their religion or belief system might damn them and their loved ones or cause some horrible fate in the end, they are willing to chance it rather than face the immediate loss or suffering of said loved one.

It doesn't make Isolde a saint, and it does, in my opinion, make her a hypocrite. After all, the Circle is fine for some other slob's kids to be taken away and confined to, but not hers, and it does indeed, in my opinion, raise questions about just how pious she really was. When confronted with a certain crisis of faith, it seems she was quite ready to toss it aside. Which, I think, is a real test of faith and belief, in how well it holds up to personal crisis.

I think what I question more is just how truly religious she was to begin with, and personally, like many upper class snobs, she probably wasn't as pure and pious in her beliefs as many thought. After all, where the hell would a "pious, godly woman"" so readily get a hold of an "evil apostate"" so quickly and readily? Generally, in my experience, truly ""pious"" people not only do not associate with such affronts to their faith, but really don't suffer the company of people who actually tolerate or traffick in such things. And if her piety is in question, then I also question the strength of her own beliefs in the teachings of Chantry regarding apostates and the dangers. I honestly do not think they were that rock solid, and if so, she probably did not truly believe that much of a threat was present.

[DarkSpiral]

A certain amount of both sides of the argument as to whether or not Isolde's action can be considered understandable depend on inference and assumption. Perth describes Isolde as a pious woman. That...doesn't actually mean it is so. In fact, given her actions, I doubt she's really all that pious to begin with. A fascination with Catholic lore doesn't make you a devout Christian, though others might assume so. From conversations I had with her, the REAL reason she was so terrified of Connor's power had next to nothing to do with the power itself, or Chantry dogma at all, but was from personal experience.



Her grandfather was a mage (I presume in Orlais, it isn't specified) and he was a bad, bad man. She's terrified that Connor will be like him if he becomes and actual mage: studies, goes through the Harrowing, etc. She's trying to prevent that. If all he learns is enough to hide his talent from the public, but not enough to actually use it, then he won't become like his great-grandfather.



Oddly enough, if you demand a reward for saving Connor's life, the reward is a staff her grandfather used. I've no idea how good it was; my character told her to give it to Connor when he was old enough. I've no idea why she would have kept a memento from a man that scares her white.



I do, however, think I know why she would have gone to an apostate rather than, say, tried to bribe a Circle Mage. Let's set aside for the moment that she never actually went looking for a mage herself; she appealed for help to Loghain. A bad idea, certainly but how was she supposed to know that? I'd trust a national hero too. Also let's set aside that Circle Mages can't leave the tower without permission from the First Enchanter. That ISN'T a guess or inference, it's stated outright. Anyway, setting all that aside, apostates have something to lose. They're (most of them) on the run, and need a place to hide. If a Circle Mage decides to change his mind and report the situation to the Circle, what's likely to happen to him? A slap on the wrist? Probably, yeah. The Knight Commander would be ticked off the situation happened at all, but as long as no blood magic occurred the Templar's have no legal right to act. An apostate would jump at the chance for sanctuary.



All that said, I'm in the category of people that despise her for a weak, shortsighted, selfish, and elitist trophy wife. Others can list all the reasons why she did what she did that you wish. I refuse to accept what she did as anything close to acceptable.

[Kuravid]

Taleroth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If you leave the village to it's own devices, Teagan is left wounded in the Chantry when you return.
Happy now?

Only wounded? 

Well, he's just kind of passed out in the middle of the Chantry. You basically shake him awake and he gets mad at you (very briefly) for not sticking around for the Redcliffe battle.

[th3warr1or]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Mistriever Lassenarra wrote...

As for Teagan,

Not a coward, probably incompetent, certainly not a Hero.

By virtue of the culture Bann Teagan should be a least a trained warrior. He is a male of a noble family. Medieval Culture was one of might makes right (Loghain using force to put down his detractors tells me Ferelden follows suit, he only poisoned the ARl because he was too popular and influential to take on directly) and even less fit nobleman were trained in combat to better defend or exploit the commonfolk depending on the regime. So he is most certainly at least a trained and well equipped fighter, if not an exceptional one. Also I find it unlikely he controls a seperate Bannorn from Redcliffe but instead serves as his brother's second and was at the Landsmeet representing Redcliffe when the troubles started. Why else would he not have solicited help while in Denerim, or simply called his own forces to aid his brother at Redcliffe if he possesed them.

He does not flee at the first sign of trouble but stays with his people, facing the same fate. A coward would have fled with whatever wealth he could to the estate in Denerim. The fact that he neither takes charge nor makes a reasonable plan of action points to some level of incompetence. Sticking to the plan of digging in and waiting to be wiped out seems a little inept to me. Luckily a hero shows up on his door to solve the problem for him. May be a genetic fault as Alistair is much the same way, wracked with the inability to make a decision and incapable of true leadership. You can "harden" him somewhat but he'll never be other than a follower. Even when "leading" his army against the darkspawn in Denerim your character is the crutch he leans on. Arl Eamon seems to be the family exception rather than the rule. A hero would have either led his people to safety, perhaps even dieing with his knights defending their flight, or solved the problem. If four starngers can solve the problems then surely the Bann and four trained knights could have stormed the castle and overwhelmed the undead. But the PC and companions are exceptional heroes so he most likely would have died in the attempt and his "heroic death" would soon be forgotten. So for those of you wanting to end up with Teagan, just hook up with Alistair and harden him up. The two are quite similar once you get past Alistair's defense mechanism of wise cracks.

Considering how hard I kicked his ass and a bunch of guards and how much better equipped I was than he, I can't agree with you on those terms.

He didn't have a lot of options. The most defensible option in town had undead in it. Leaving the town would subject people to darkspawn raids. He wasn't a mage, a templar, a rogue, and a badass. You saw how many of those militia folks fell and judging from his weapons and complete lack of armor, he didn't have any good options of killing the undead on his own.

Gotta remember, his army was peasants... Low moraled, ill equipped, peasants...

Disagree. Bann Teagan isn't incompetent. He already admitted that he's a skilled enough fighter to know that there are many better than he is. So he's not untrained in combat, he's just not the best.
 
Besides, he has more balls than you guys give him credit for...

If he's as 'bad' a fighter as said, then even more kudos to him for standing up to Loghain directly at the Landsmeet.

[Taleroth]

Kuravid wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If you leave the village to it's own devices, Teagan is left wounded in the Chantry when you return.
Happy now?

Only wounded? 

Well, he's just kind of passed out in the middle of the Chantry. You basically shake him awake and he gets mad at you (very briefly) for not sticking around for the Redcliffe battle.

No sticking a shiv in his ribs?

[Krigwin]

I don't see how anyone can dislike Teagan after his "NOOOOOBODY HAHAHAAAHAH" moment. He deserves so much more than Isolde. And his voice actor deserves a medal for being able to deliver that line without laughing.

[Fivexxxxx]

The only good thing about Isolde is how she pronounces "Teagan". I always get a kick out of that.



TEAGAAAANN!

[Dermain]

th3warr1or wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Mistriever Lassenarra wrote...

As for Teagan,

Not a coward, probably incompetent, certainly not a Hero.

By virtue of the culture Bann Teagan should be a least a trained warrior. He is a male of a noble family. Medieval Culture was one of might makes right (Loghain using force to put down his detractors tells me Ferelden follows suit, he only poisoned the ARl because he was too popular and influential to take on directly) and even less fit nobleman were trained in combat to better defend or exploit the commonfolk depending on the regime. So he is most certainly at least a trained and well equipped fighter, if not an exceptional one. Also I find it unlikely he controls a seperate Bannorn from Redcliffe but instead serves as his brother's second and was at the Landsmeet representing Redcliffe when the troubles started. Why else would he not have solicited help while in Denerim, or simply called his own forces to aid his brother at Redcliffe if he possesed them.

He does not flee at the first sign of trouble but stays with his people, facing the same fate. A coward would have fled with whatever wealth he could to the estate in Denerim. The fact that he neither takes charge nor makes a reasonable plan of action points to some level of incompetence. Sticking to the plan of digging in and waiting to be wiped out seems a little inept to me. Luckily a hero shows up on his door to solve the problem for him. May be a genetic fault as Alistair is much the same way, wracked with the inability to make a decision and incapable of true leadership. You can "harden" him somewhat but he'll never be other than a follower. Even when "leading" his army against the darkspawn in Denerim your character is the crutch he leans on. Arl Eamon seems to be the family exception rather than the rule. A hero would have either led his people to safety, perhaps even dieing with his knights defending their flight, or solved the problem. If four starngers can solve the problems then surely the Bann and four trained knights could have stormed the castle and overwhelmed the undead. But the PC and companions are exceptional heroes so he most likely would have died in the attempt and his "heroic death" would soon be forgotten. So for those of you wanting to end up with Teagan, just hook up with Alistair and harden him up. The two are quite similar once you get past Alistair's defense mechanism of wise cracks.

Considering how hard I kicked his ass and a bunch of guards and how much better equipped I was than he, I can't agree with you on those terms.

He didn't have a lot of options. The most defensible option in town had undead in it. Leaving the town would subject people to darkspawn raids. He wasn't a mage, a templar, a rogue, and a badass. You saw how many of those militia folks fell and judging from his weapons and complete lack of armor, he didn't have any good options of killing the undead on his own.

Gotta remember, his army was peasants... Low moraled, ill equipped, peasants...

Disagree. Bann Teagan isn't incompetent. He already admitted that he's a skilled enough fighter to know that there are many better than he is. So he's not untrained in combat, he's just not the best.
 
Besides, he has more balls than you guys give him credit for...

If he's as 'bad' a fighter as said, then even more kudos to him for standing up to Loghain directly at the Landsmeet.

They also show him fighitng the darkspawn as the Archdemon dies, although thats pretty much the only actual fighting sequence featuring him in the game.

[TomBrokaw]

I don't care what people do for what selfish reason or how many people they hurt. I do the same, after all.  In games and in life.

But don't do it with a whiney voice. Whiney voice = unacceptable.

Modifié par TomBrokaw, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[Korva]

I really can't put too much blame on Teagan for not organizing the Redcliffe defense better. It is merely one of countless cases (I'm not picking on DA in prticular here, but it really happens in many situations in many games) of perfectly competent NPCs being forcibly made passive, incompetent and helpless just to ****** the player's ego and give the impression nothing happens without us. Frankly, I find it rather annoying and immersion-breaking sometimes, especially when it's such a glaring case as in Redcliffe (and it's not just Teagan being gutted by the writing there, but everyone else too).

Modifié par Korva, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:45 .

[ChemicalGreen]

DarkSpiral wrote...

A certain amount of both sides of the argument as to whether or not Isolde's action can be considered understandable depend on inference and assumption. Perth describes Isolde as a pious woman. That...doesn't actually mean it is so. In fact, given her actions, I doubt she's really all that pious to begin with. A fascination with Catholic lore doesn't make you a devout Christian, though others might assume so. From conversations I had with her, the REAL reason she was so terrified of Connor's power had next to nothing to do with the power itself, or Chantry dogma at all, but was from personal experience.

Her grandfather was a mage (I presume in Orlais, it isn't specified) and he was a bad, bad man. She's terrified that Connor will be like him if he becomes and actual mage: studies, goes through the Harrowing, etc. She's trying to prevent that. If all he learns is enough to hide his talent from the public, but not enough to actually use it, then he won't become like his great-grandfather.

Oddly enough, if you demand a reward for saving Connor's life, the reward is a staff her grandfather used. I've no idea how good it was; my character told her to give it to Connor when he was old enough. I've no idea why she would have kept a memento from a man that scares her white.

I do, however, think I know why she would have gone to an apostate rather than, say, tried to bribe a Circle Mage. Let's set aside for the moment that she never actually went looking for a mage herself; she appealed for help to Loghain. A bad idea, certainly but how was she supposed to know that? I'd trust a national hero too. Also let's set aside that Circle Mages can't leave the tower without permission from the First Enchanter. That ISN'T a guess or inference, it's stated outright. Anyway, setting all that aside, apostates have something to lose. They're (most of them) on the run, and need a place to hide. If a Circle Mage decides to change his mind and report the situation to the Circle, what's likely to happen to him? A slap on the wrist? Probably, yeah. The Knight Commander would be ticked off the situation happened at all, but as long as no blood magic occurred the Templar's have no legal right to act. An apostate would jump at the chance for sanctuary.

All that said, I'm in the category of people that despise her for a weak, shortsighted, selfish, and elitist trophy wife. Others can list all the reasons why she did what she did that you wish. I refuse to accept what she did as anything close to acceptable.

Actually, and I hope you'll forgive me for muddying up the waters more, Isolde states that the men in her family with magic were "sinful". Now, sinful does not equal bad. We've already been hinted (By Wynne of all people) that mages do not conform with the restrictions of morality that the rest of the society does. Especially when it comes to who sleeps with whom and whether marriage is talked about or not. I seem to remember that Orlaisian mages are equally leashed to the Chantry as the Ferelden mages are, so chances of all of Isolde's mage relatives being dark wizards set on to destroy the world with blood-sugar-sex-magic is not probable. They could simply just enjoy the company of ladies (or gentlemen, we're talking about a bunch of men in dresses here) without being discreet about it.

[Spetulhu]

DarkSpiral wrote...

A certain amount of both sides of the argument as to whether or not Isolde's action can be considered understandable depend on inference and assumption. Perth describes Isolde as a pious woman. That...doesn't actually mean it is so. In fact, given her actions, I doubt she's really all that pious to begin with. A fascination with Catholic lore doesn't make you a devout Christian, though others might assume so.

All too true. Following church dogma in public may make Ser Perth see her as pious. Isolde is a noblewoman and married to a significantly older man. There's many people on these boards thinking she has an affair with Bann Teagan - who's to say people in-game don't suspect such things? One way to deflect and discredit rumours is to be publicly religious and/or against whatever you privately desire to engage in. We see it with our own political leaders from time to time - those most vehemently for marriage get caught having an affair, those against gays are outed, the one that campaigns against immigration is revealed to have illegal aliens working for substandard pay in his mansion.

[XOGHunter246]

OK i agree she is a bit hypocritical but with the conner thing i thinks anyone would of done anything to save their son. She wasn't only one that was blind to loghain.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I know what you are saying. 

I also know of real world examples where people, despite their religous beliefs and convictions that x will happen if y is done, will toss those aside and do things that they have been taught are abominable, sinful, and might doom their souls and take a chance instead that said ""sin"" or danger might  spare a loved one from an unpleasant situation.

It's like certain religions teach that things like, say, getting blood transfusions or organ transplants are not only bad things, but things that could doom the soul as well. As far as those persons are concerned, these things are indeed evil, because those are the beliefs that shape their lives. Yet we see cases where said believers will indeed defy and break these serious tabboos and go ahead with said ""mortal sin"" when the lives, well being, longevity, ect of their kids are at stake. So, despite believing that their choice to defy the rules of their religion or belief system might damn them and their loved ones or cause some horrible fate in the end, they are willing to chance it rather than face the immediate loss or suffering of said loved one.

It doesn't make Isolde a saint, and it does, in my opinion, make her a hypocrite. After all, the Circle is fine for some other slob's kids to be taken away and confined to, but not hers, and it does indeed, in my opinion, raise questions about just how pious she really was. When confronted with a certain crisis of faith, it seems she was quite ready to toss it aside. Which, I think, is a real test of faith and belief, in how well it holds up to personal crisis.

I think what I question more is just how truly religious she was to begin with, and personally, like many upper class snobs, she probably wasn't as pure and pious in her beliefs as many thought. After all, where the hell would a "pious, godly woman"" so readily get a hold of an "evil apostate"" so quickly and readily? Generally, in my experience, truly ""pious"" people not only do not associate with such affronts to their faith, but really don't suffer the company of people who actually tolerate or traffick in such things. And if her piety is in question, then I also question the strength of her own beliefs in the teachings of Chantry regarding apostates and the dangers. I honestly do not think they were that rock solid, and if so, she probably did not truly believe that much of a threat was present.

See, this is the thing that gets me. In the real world, we have all the fun doubt and suspicion on whether or not there are demons, etc etc. We can even question the matter of a hell. In DA though... It is very obvious there are demons and a person like Isolde would have less reason to suspect otherwise than you or I would in our world. She is obviously sheltered but... Nevermind, you have a point. We have to question how pious she was in the first place and the fact that she is a moron.

I am all for acts of protecting my boys. I love my boys and would do even suicidal things to save them. But... I won't take stupid risks with Their lives which is what she did. Everything she did for her boy was for her sake, not his. That is why I don't accept the Mother Lulz defense on her behalf. She only realizes how to be a mother when it comes to sacrificing herself. Everything leading up to it... All about her.

She took a risk to keep her boy with her. It wasn't about his safety. It was about hiding his powers because SHE was humiliated. It wasn't about shielding him from demons, it was about hiding her shame. It wasn't about anything for him, it was about keeping her boy with her.

So maybe the title of the thread should Isolde is a stupid, selfish cow...

So yea, I don't buy the Mom defense when everything was about her needs/wants and not her baby's. That isn't parenting.

[th3warr1or]

She was the only one blind to Loghain because of SELFISH reasons.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Myrkale wrote...

th3warr1or wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Mistriever Lassenarra wrote...

As for Teagan,

Not a coward, probably incompetent, certainly not a Hero.

By virtue of the culture Bann Teagan should be a least a trained warrior. He is a male of a noble family. Medieval Culture was one of might makes right (Loghain using force to put down his detractors tells me Ferelden follows suit, he only poisoned the ARl because he was too popular and influential to take on directly) and even less fit nobleman were trained in combat to better defend or exploit the commonfolk depending on the regime. So he is most certainly at least a trained and well equipped fighter, if not an exceptional one. Also I find it unlikely he controls a seperate Bannorn from Redcliffe but instead serves as his brother's second and was at the Landsmeet representing Redcliffe when the troubles started. Why else would he not have solicited help while in Denerim, or simply called his own forces to aid his brother at Redcliffe if he possesed them.

He does not flee at the first sign of trouble but stays with his people, facing the same fate. A coward would have fled with whatever wealth he could to the estate in Denerim. The fact that he neither takes charge nor makes a reasonable plan of action points to some level of incompetence. Sticking to the plan of digging in and waiting to be wiped out seems a little inept to me. Luckily a hero shows up on his door to solve the problem for him. May be a genetic fault as Alistair is much the same way, wracked with the inability to make a decision and incapable of true leadership. You can "harden" him somewhat but he'll never be other than a follower. Even when "leading" his army against the darkspawn in Denerim your character is the crutch he leans on. Arl Eamon seems to be the family exception rather than the rule. A hero would have either led his people to safety, perhaps even dieing with his knights defending their flight, or solved the problem. If four starngers can solve the problems then surely the Bann and four trained knights could have stormed the castle and overwhelmed the undead. But the PC and companions are exceptional heroes so he most likely would have died in the attempt and his "heroic death" would soon be forgotten. So for those of you wanting to end up with Teagan, just hook up with Alistair and harden him up. The two are quite similar once you get past Alistair's defense mechanism of wise cracks.

Considering how hard I kicked his ass and a bunch of guards and how much better equipped I was than he, I can't agree with you on those terms.

He didn't have a lot of options. The most defensible option in town had undead in it. Leaving the town would subject people to darkspawn raids. He wasn't a mage, a templar, a rogue, and a badass. You saw how many of those militia folks fell and judging from his weapons and complete lack of armor, he didn't have any good options of killing the undead on his own.

Gotta remember, his army was peasants... Low moraled, ill equipped, peasants...

Disagree. Bann Teagan isn't incompetent. He already admitted that he's a skilled enough fighter to know that there are many better than he is. So he's not untrained in combat, he's just not the best.
 
Besides, he has more balls than you guys give him credit for...

If he's as 'bad' a fighter as said, then even more kudos to him for standing up to Loghain directly at the Landsmeet.

They also show him fighitng the darkspawn as the Archdemon dies, although thats pretty much the only actual fighting sequence featuring him in the game.

Um guys, I actually Teagan and my point was that he didn't have a lot of options so people need to cut him some slack...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...


See, this is the thing that gets me. In the real world, we have all the fun doubt and suspicion on whether or not there are demons, etc etc. We can even question the matter of a hell. In DA though... It is very obvious there are demons and a person like Isolde would have less reason to suspect otherwise than you or I would in our world. She is obviously sheltered but... Nevermind, you have a point. We have to question how pious she was in the first place and the fact that she is a moron.

I am all for acts of protecting my boys. I love my boys and would do even suicidal things to save them. But... I won't take stupid risks with Their lives which is what she did. Everything she did for her boy was for her sake, not his. That is why I don't accept the Mother Lulz defense on her behalf. She only realizes how to be a mother when it comes to sacrificing herself. Everything leading up to it... All about her.

She took a risk to keep her boy with her. It wasn't about his safety. It was about hiding his powers because SHE was humiliated. It wasn't about shielding him from demons, it was about hiding her shame. It wasn't about anything for him, it was about keeping her boy with her.

So maybe the title of the thread should Isolde is a stupid, selfish cow...

So yea, I don't buy the Mom defense when everything was about her needs/wants and not her baby's. That isn't parenting.

I probably didn't phrase it right, but basically, I was was trying to point that out: the question of piety. I saw it more of Isolde's own beliefs being shaky and questionable in terms of  of piety and how much she believed things. I think hypocrite should be added to the list of of ephiteths. Believing magic and apostates sinful, but when it suits her, accepting their help.

She was, remember, when Jowan was brought up and suggested the use of blood magic and the sacrifice of a person's life to fuel it, quite happy to sacrifice herself without a single thought. (And after the headaches incurred fighting my way through the undead to get to that point, her generous offer was really tempting). Again, she was ready and eager to consort with and engage in activity that she is taught and believes to be near mortal sins, without much thought. I think we've established she is not a particularly bright woman, but in my eyes, it even makes me wonder if her whole "holiness" bit isn't simply a ceremonial front with little true conviction in side.

I would not deny that she posseses a healthy element of selfishness, either. But I think if she did it merely wanted to spare herslef the embarassment of a mage son, she could have locked him up somewhere, out of sight, out of mind, and conspired to create some excuse or smokescreen for the Arl.

And it is not good parenting at all. But it's still parenting. Parents can easily screw their kids lives up with the best of intentions, and believe they are doing the right thing, until its too late, which is what happened here.

I do wish there was an in game option where you could suggest that Isolde be punished for her actions, because what she did cost alot of lives in the village and amongst her own guards, regardless of her motives, and it almost cost her the lives of her husband and son. I really think, more than Jowan, she should be punished.

[Adria Teksuni]

Okay, she had a bit of a panic and called in an Apostate to teach her son so she wouldn't lose him. I don't agree with it (even as a mother, meself) but I definitely understand it.

HOWEVER, her beloved son gets POSSESSED, the castle staff and soldiers are turning into zombies, her husband is dying, and her brother in law has turned into the royal jester from hell.

Methinks it's time to call in some serious outside help.

*signs up for the "Isolde is a Stupid Cow" list.

Besides, she was mean to Alistair.

DAGNABBIT, it either double spaces or doesn't space at all!

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:52 .

[ahnnajade]

I don't get the Isolde hate either...

'kill your 9 year old or stand by and let him kill a village' how anyone overly blames her for running around helplessly like someone just cut her head off is beyond me...

'tell your husband/the world/etc your son is a mage and watch him be taken away by mages for the rest of his childhood and most the rest of his life, knowing full well magic corrupted your family in the past or try to keep it secret' i'm not sure how anyone blames her overly much there, either....

'allow your psychotic possessed 9 year old to continue throwing a murderous demonic fit or try to placate him by tricking your brother in law into the relatively same situation you are (oh yay, another mind on the subject so all these ridiculously unfathomable decisions! how horrible.)' once again, not sure how anyone is overly blaming her...



it just seems to me like a string of seriously unfortunate situations and decisions left up to a weak woman who's quite selfish and somewhat delusional. not to mention that whole 'anything for your kid' I would have thought to be far easier to sympathize with than 'I murdered a farm hold 'cause I was out of my element and lost my sword.' But I love Sten, too.



And as for The Angry One apparently sharing my love for Teagan.. not sure how to take that ;D

[Adria Teksuni]

ahnnajade wrote...
it just seems to me like a string of seriously unfortunate situations and decisions left up to a weak woman who's quite selfish and somewhat delusional. 

I think you just explained your own question.

[ahnnajade]

I did?

If I see her that way and don't hate her what am I doing wrong or what is wrong with you people!