202 réponses à ce sujet

[Adria Teksuni]

She is a weak woman who is quite selfish and somewhat delusional. If she is SO weak that she cannot even get help free her son, stop the awesome slaughter not only in her castle, but in the village as well, and save her brother in law, then she deserves nothing but contempt. At some point during the macabre spiral, someone who is not completely insane would realize something would have to be done to put a stop to the entire thing, even if it meant the unthinkable. They did not portray her as completely insane, only as you said, mainly weak.

Although...Teagan is da bomb. I loved flirting with him. I had high hopes my first playthrough that he would become a romanceable party member. Alas...

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:28 .

[ahnnajade]

Yes but I'm not trying to get her an award for heroism or anything. She made a lot of bad/irresponsible/selfish decisions but I guess to me it's more pitiful than contempt worthy. I also could see real people making the same decisions when faced with loosing their child in some fashion, and that situation in itself could drive some people insane. Like it is just completely unfathomable to imagine your child dying or being that evil, none the less playing a part in ending him yourself.

She seemed genuinely thankful and regretful if you save everyone at the end, too.. or at least to me



I think Teagan pulls those lines on just about every random female he sees, myself~ He seemed to come up with them a bit too quickly like he'd done it before.

But my PC still woulda dumped alistair for him in a heartbeat.

[Adria Teksuni]

Wow, this is a LOT longer than I had intended.  I apologize for the length, but thank you for the fun debate!

Yes, people can make seemingly irresponsible decisions when faced with an overwhelmingly emotional choice to make. (I began to list examples, but got too depressed.) However, even when forced to confront what she has done she continues to waffle, showing what a petty, weak minded individual she is. She is the wife of an Arl for goodness' sake, and by most accounts, a pretty good one. Even Alistair didn't hold a grudge against her. That would mean she had to have some modicum of leadership.

If it's a question of weakness, which is what I saw as her "flaw" in the game, not insanity, at some point she would have HAD to have looked around and said "Enough is enough." When she came for help, she didn't. She came to appease and keep her secret.

More than the life of her son was at stake, her son's SOUL was at stake. She should have done everything and anything she could to at least save him, instead of letting him slide deeper and deeper into the horror that is being an abomination. Instead, she is desperate to not make things worse, and to keep her secret, instead of stopping the ongoing horror around her.

Granted, I whole heartedly believe that while she shares the blame for what happened, she does NOT shoulder it all herself (Loghain and um...er...the blood mage dude who's name escapes me are also to blame) but she is indeed partly responsible. The blood mage is in no position to do anything, and even if Loghain knew, it's working to his advantage. She's the only one left who can even attempt to make things right.

It really bugs me that she could watch what was happening to her son and not move heaven and earth to save him but just kind of...watch it get worse.

I think Teagan pulls those lines on just about every random female he sees, myself~ He seemed to come up with them a bit too quickly like he'd done it before.

Hee hee hee, I know it, but I don't mind. I loved that he also had a couple of Carthisms in there (Carth from Knights of the Old Republic). He was smooth and curled my toes up inside my armored bootsies! Besides, I can take his style of "being experienced" hella better than Zevran's.

But my PC still woulda dumped alistair for him in a heartbeat.

Oh, here HERE!

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:49 .

[Kanner]

Need more mages to perform the ritual without sacrificing anyone.



Went to the circle, backed Morrigan's speech to Wynne, Wynne freaks out, mages attack, we kill all the mages, get trapped in the fade, kill a demon, return to the castle sans mages.



Went past Teagan and Isolde, fought through to the upstairs section, engaged conner (very brief fight). Defeated the demon and left conner in one piece - at which point Isolde intervenes and accepts that someone has to put her son out of his misery. Short argument about who gets the privilege ("But I'm his mother!"), after which there's a nice 'cut' scene involving Isolde mothering poor Conner whilst drawing a huge kitchen knife...



Doesn't seem to be a very popular end to the whole questline, based on this thread. Isolde's not all bad tho. She made bad, risky choices to get everyone into the situation at Redcliff - but she's also able to make the hard choices necessary to resolve the situation. Unintended consequences are a fact of life.

[ahnnajade]

Haha, no worries. It's fun and almost convincing me to 86 work and boot up the game



Ahh, I suppose putting it into some perspective it does get worse. Remembering how she treated Alistair only enforces how much she's willing to make others suffer for her airs and generally selfish reasons. That said in the 'standing by' and watching her son progress further into the... doom is where I start seeing it as pitiful. Because trying to imagine being in that situation, and someone I trusted didn't say 'going through the door on the left is the absolute solution' I think the pressure of having to decide what to do on your own might leave some in crumbles. For that, I think Isolde is a good example of crumbling under pressure and heavy decisions only resulting in inaction. If the decision was between his life and his soul, then her selfishness is that much worse, though Its hard to imagine her accepting those sorts of realities coherantly at the time... also I don't really think that Eamon married her for her ability to lead in the slightest, if this is any proof she'd make a horrible, horrible leader.



Basically at the end of the day I figure Redcliffe officially labels her 'useless wife of our Arl' and hopes Eamon lives long enough that Conner is.... well I guess he's in the tower now isn't he.... Oh that's right Teagan takes over. Hurray!

[Adria Teksuni]

But srsly, did everyone in the castle besides one poor scullery made and a blood mage have to get turned into undead, half the village slaughtered, and her brother in law turned into a muppet in order for her to come to the conclusion that Connor had to be put out of his misery?

[thegreateski]

If I could I would kill her AND that brat of a kid everytime I go through that part of the story.

[ahnnajade]

Kanner wrote...
 ("But I'm his mother!"), after which there's a nice 'cut' scene involving Isolde mothering poor Conner whilst drawing a huge kitchen knife... 

Oh wow.

I possibly! take back everything I just said about Isolde. XD

[Adria Teksuni]

Yeah. She's fun to despise.

[kevinwastaken]

I loved that my character (a mage) got to punch her face in. You see, as a mage I was quite resentful of anyone who thought the tower wasn't good enough for THEIR precious little snowflake. I grew up there and went on to become Gray Warden, so F little connor and F Isolde and F that loser Jowan in the anus.

[Adria Teksuni]

kevinwastaken wrote...

I loved that my character (a mage) got to punch her face in. You see, as a mage I was quite resentful of anyone who thought the tower wasn't good enough for THEIR precious little snowflake. I grew up there and went on to become Gray Warden, so F little connor and F Isolde and F that loser Jowan in the anus.

Wooooooow...

O.o

[thegreateski]

kevinwastaken wrote...

I loved that my character (a mage) got to punch her face in. You see, as a mage I was quite resentful of anyone who thought the tower wasn't good enough for THEIR precious little snowflake. I grew up there and went on to become Gray Warden, so F little connor and F Isolde and F that loser Jowan in the anus.

*Hugs you*
*Rolls a mage*
*Goes to Redcliffe*
*kills Jowan*
*punches Isolde*
*sexes up the Desire demon and fakes its death*

What a perfect ending.

Modifié par thegreateski, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:26 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Kanner wrote...

Doesn't seem to be a very popular end to the whole questline, based on this thread. Isolde's not all bad tho. She made bad, risky choices to get everyone into the situation at Redcliff - but she's also able to make the hard choices necessary to resolve the situation. Unintended consequences are a fact of life.

I'm in complete disagreement with this.  See, she only makes that "hard choice" necessary to resolve the situation because her son is in pain and begging for it to stop.  That's it.  If he hadn't been in pain, she would have continued trying to defend him, despite putting everyone else at risk.  She isn't brought back to her senses by the deaths of all the soldiers in the castle, nor by the deaths of the castle's staff, nor when he sends undead out to attack the village and slaughter civilians and villagers, not even when she's outside the castle and has a chance to come clean and tell the truth and at least make an attempt to put a stop to the whole thing.

I could understand, accept, and maybe even slightly forgive everything she did, up to the point where, even after hundreds of people die, when an opportunity arises to seek actual help, she does nothing but lie and hide and cover up the truth from the only people who might possibly be able to help, and then leads Teagan into a trap where she knows that the only outcomes are death or being mentally enslaved.  That cannot be forgiven.

[Adria Teksuni]

Doesn't seem to be a very popular end to the whole questline, based on this thread. Isolde's not all bad tho. She made bad, risky choices to get everyone into the situation at Redcliff - but she's also able to make the hard choices necessary to resolve the situation. Unintended consequences are a fact of life.

The ONLY time she made the "hard choices necessary" was when she was forced to make them, period, showing her inherent, utter, and totally despicable weakness of character.



And you don't think the incredibly horrific amount of death, destruction, and bad breath in dogs warrants a bit more than an "unintended consequence"?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ya know, I still stand by my song edit a few pages back...

[Kanner]

And you don't think the incredibly horrific amount of death, destruction, and bad breath in dogs warrants a bit more than an "unintended consequence"?

The choice she made was to hire a secret tutor for her son instead of sending him to the Circle.  That is quite different to intentionally choosing horrific amounts of death, destruction and dogs. 

Additionally, you're assuming that Conner would somehow have worked out okay anywhere else he went.  The kid makes pacts with demons literally in his sleep.  Powerful ones!  Who's to say sending him to the circle, with Uldred planning a blood mage revolt, would not have been an even more disasterous course of action?

You're very happy to blame Isolde for Jowan's treachery and Conner's vast demonic power just because she loves her son, broke a few rules, and has an annoying, overwrought accent. =P

[Adria Teksuni]

If you'd have read my previous posts, you'd see I blame Loghain and Jowan as well for the overall events.



However, of those three, ONLY Isolde was in a position to actually do anything about it. She stood by and helplessly wrung her hands while her people died and became undead, her son was losing his soul to a demon, her husband lay dying, and her brother in law yet another thrall.



So, yes, I'm quite happy to blame her for being an utter loser.



And I'm assuming what about Connor? Where in the world did you see that? But even in the Tower, as horrific as it was, it was confined to the Tower. It did not spill out into the helpless villagers. The Templars contained it. Unless, of course, you're assuming that I'm assuming that Connor would become a Gozilla Abomination Level 14 and just lay waste to the entirety of Ferelden. Forget the darkspawn, now we have Connor to worry about.



The choiceS she made led to the continuation of the Abomination and all it did. She kept silent instead of trying to do something, anything. If she loves her son so damned much, why didn't she try to save him instead of just ignore the problem in hopes it would just go away?



"Oh, ze funny voice? Zat's just puberty. Ze ability to control uzzers with hiz mind? He iz just veery charizmatic! Zat iz all! Really!"



She did more than just stand by and let it happen. She threw her brother in law to the Abomination. She wasn't just ineffectual, she was willing to take an active part in a family member's utter destruction. She's a weak, selfish woman who was utterly useless to do anything until someone who could showed up and forced her. Which, again, just shows how weak she is.

[Imrahil_]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Ya know, I still stand by my song edit a few pages back...

You definitely didn't get enough credit for that - I literally LOL'd.

As far as Isolde, I just took her as a trophy wife.  I didn't really hate her, except maybe for when I played as an Elf Mage.  The looks she gave my character irritated me - like I was a piece of dirt.

[Arijharn]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
Um, you would have your kid consort with by all information you have, somebody almost guaranteed to make him an abomination, in order to "save him?" I didn't find anything motherly about keeping the boy from the circle considered that everything she knew said it would be worse with what she was doing.

If he goes to the Circle, you can visit. If you bring an apostate to your son... You get what you pay for. o_O

I actually detailed all this out on the pages back.

Actually, while I strongly dislike what Isolde did (and strongly dislike since you can't actually levy crimes against her), I think it within the realm of her reason to go a bit crazy with desperation and act in ways in which she normally wouldn't. I'm not a woman, and I do not have children but her entire life was seemingly collapsing underneath her so yes, I can see someone in that situation doing it.

This doesn't mean I could do it, it doesn't mean it should be done under any reason, but I can certainly understand why she did it. Or rather, I think I do.

[Arijharn]

vocalemuse wrote...

Kuravid wrote...

 I just hate the idea that she might be having an affair with Bann Teagan. I want the opportunity to have him all to myself!

I don't think he is, because if you save Bevin and talk to Kaitlyn after the battle in the Chantry (plus give her at least 1 sovereign for the sword) they move to Denerim to be with family. Then in the epilogue, it says that Kaitlyn becomes a successful merchant and meets Teagan at some formal affair - then they get married soon after. xD

This doesn't mean they weren't having an affair... for better or for worse, even if Teagan and Isolde really loved each other rather than just enjoyed the affair due to the fact it was so scandalous it's not as if they could ever have a 'happily ever after.' Isolde is married and has a child (which hell, could be Teagan's!) and Teagan would be considered exceptionally odd perhaps to be of noble birth and to go through life without a wife. Even if he was homosexual, I would of thought nobility's would have children even if it was out of a sense of duty.

[tanerb123]

i think she is very hot. i did not kill her,still hoping for a deal, you know arl is old...

[phordicus]

stupid people should never be in positions of power. we're hard on isolde because an arbitrary political class system gave her the ability to destroy a disproportionate number of people's lives. really, she's no different than any other hypocritically religious and ignorant neighbor or co-worker we all know and deal with every day.

[Lughsan35]

The Angry One wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Keep in mind none of that stopped Uldred from researching demonology, summoning demons, and getting his dumb ass possessed.

I did. The Harrowing has nothing to do with any of that. The Harrowing doesn't stop you from having free will. If you want to become a Blood Mage, or research demonology, or ultimately consort with demons, the Harrowing doesn't prevent that.

Then why do it? Why traumatize potential mages with it? Why not just teach them about the nature of demons?
Most of the characters seem to regard the Harrowing as some sort of "proving" when it really isn't, oh and if you fail you get possessed and get killed by templars. Super.

It weeds out the truly weak and stupid its perfectly arayan.

[Lughsan35]

Korva wrote...

There is no character in this game I hate more than Isolde. Not Loghain, not Howe, not Morrigan. They are all far worse people, but at least they have a measure of strength. Isolde is just a screeching, hypocritical, spoiled, egotistical little Orlesian wh*re -- totally useless. And the worst thing is that she gets away with her crimes despite the immense suffering her selfish stupidity has caused. I really wish we could hand that woman to the Templar. Or that I could break her jaw to shut her the eff up. Sadly, playing a paladin-type of character meant I "had to" save her and her brat with Irving's help.

I could feel a measure of sympathy for her if she wasn't so totally egotistical, so totally callous about everything and everyone beside Connor. Not a word of apology. Not a word of sorrow for the many dead in Redcliffe -- people her family is duty-bound to protect! Just WAAH WAAH! MY SON! WAAH WAAAH WAAAAAAH!

I have not once ever opted to NOT require her to sacrifice herself.  She pays in blood for her crimes against her son and the people and her husband.:innocent:

[Korva]

That was not an option for my first character (and probably most of the follow-ups too), she would sooner have killed the brat than allow the use of blood magic. First, it's outlawed and second, giving an untrustworthy and criminal maleficar the power of another's lifeblood seems risky in the extreme. Jowan could very well be lying through his teeth (or dead already if you gutted him in his cell). But damn, it sure is VERY tempting and definitely the most "poetic overdue justice" outcome.