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[Anvos]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Especially not when this very system is often precisely the catalyst for driving mages to extreme measures in the first place. 

You can't lock people up and then when people rebel against being locked up, say "this is why we lock them up!"  It doesn't work that way.

I agree that locking them up doesn't seem to fix the problem.

However "does not fix" != "causes."

The cuase of the problem is that they are born mages.

No the cause of the problem is that the Chantry has spent a millenium indoctrinating people into thinking magic is bad and mages are always on the brink of being possessed even though your average trained mage is only a remote threat unless your trying to run them through with sharp pointy objects.  This largely comes from the fact that the Andrastian Chantry's main enemy is an empire of mages that did the terrible thing of bringing civilization to the barbarian tribes that surrounded them. 

Not to mention that the less the average citizen sees of mages the less likely they are to realize Andraste's "maricles" seem an awful lot like the spells of a powerful mage who wasn't trying to free anybody but rather replace the Imperium with herself.

Modifié par Anvos, 24 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[Silfren]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
It ain't that far a leap from justifications for real world slavery, after all.

Yes it is. There is a very important distinction here.

No, it actually isn't far removed at all.  The REASONS behind it may be different, but it nevertheless is a justification for slavery.  Even if there is a legitimate reason for it, it is STILL slavery.  I'd sooner just admit that than try to come up with reasons why it's not just because the term is unpalatable.

There is no real world parallel for the mage in Thedas. There is no equivilant. There is no example that really applies. Being born with magic is a definitively isolating occurrence. Mages are not unique, as there are many mages, but they are strictly unequal to non-mages.

I agree there is no real-world equivalent for mages themselves.  However, the justifications used to imprison them DO have real world counterparts, and the institution of the Circle system DOES have similarities to real world institutions.  

I engage in no such pretension. The lengthy conversation on this thread has lead me to beleive that there is no effective way to cooperate with mages. The Qunarri method is the only proven effective way to eliminate the threat.

Aside from the fact it also sows the seeds of rebellion and leads to the same problems.

Societies with free mages are not shown to have mages running amok and leaving death and destruction in their wake.  This strongly suggests that it is quite possible to have societies where mages are allowed to live free but also have special military forces designed to deal with those that go rogue.  

It won't solve all the problems or prevent any and all mage-related crime ever, but it isn't meant to.  There is no such thing as any solution which eliminates crime 100%.  It would do an acceptable job of keeping society going, however.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 avril 2012 - 09:08 .

[the_one_54321]

Silfren wrote...
I agree there is no real-world equivalent for mages themselves.  However, the justifications used to imprison them DO have real world counterparts, and the institution of the Circle system DOES have similarities to real world institutions.

This is impossible. It's like saying 1+1=5. And I'm not saying that to be condescending, or to insult you, nor to imply anything about your intellegence. It just needs to be pointed out that the statement is a definitive mistake.

If a concept has no real world parallel, then any argument about that concept also has no real world paralle. Because, by definition, any argument about that concept is based on something that has no real world parallel. The argument is definied by something that is fictitious, and thus it is also fictitious.

Silfren wrote...
Aside from the fact it also sows the seeds of rebellion and leads to the same problems.

The Qunarri have given no example of rebelion. The mage threat in their lands is entirely quelled. In a cruel, but effective manner.

Silfren wrote...
Societies with free mages are not shown to have mages running amok and leaving death and destruction in their wake.

That's just not true. There are examples of societies where mages are fairly managed, like the Dalish, and there are examples where mages were themselves a great source of suffering and oppression, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[the_one_54321]

Double post

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[Silfren]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I agree there is no real-world equivalent for mages themselves.  However, the justifications used to imprison them DO have real world counterparts, and the institution of the Circle system DOES have similarities to real world institutions.

This is impossible. It's like saying 1+1=5. And I'm not saying that to be condescending, or to insult you, nor to imply anything about your intellegence. It just needs to be pointed out that the statement is a definitive mistake.

It isn't a mistake.  It is, for a lot of people, precisely because we see parallels to real world institutions of abuse and oppression, that we object to the Circle system.  
  Especially not when we can make sound arguments that a system could be implemented to counter the problems that mages create without also being oppressive.That mages have no actual real world counterpart does not mitigate the oppressiveness of the system we're observing, and it does not change that we can see practices that DO look very much, sometimes exactly like, real world practices.  This is not fictitious.  Again, the mages themselves may have no real world equivalent, but the systemic ways in which they are oppressed DO.  That mages do not exist in the real world does NOT mean that the practice of eugenics we see in the fictional story does not have real world counterparts, etc.  It does not change the fact that several of the laws the Chantry has created for mages fits the real world definition of genocidal practice. 

the_one_54321...

Silfren wrote...
Aside from the fact it also sows the seeds of rebellion and leads to the same problems.

The Qunarri have given no example of rebelion. The mage threat in their lands is entirely quelled. In a cruel, but effective manner.

The qunari do not exist throughout Thedas.  Seeing the way they leash their mages would be one of many reasons why people resisting Qunari invasion would do so. 

the_one_54321...

Silfren wrote...
Societies with free mages are not shown to have mages running amok and leaving death and destruction in their wake.

That's just not true. There are examples of societies where mages are fairly managed, like the Dalish, and there are examples where mages were themselves a great source of suffering and oppression, like the Tevinter Imperium.

I phrased myself badly.  The fact remains that there ARE societies of free mages that demonstrate that free mages do not automagically lead to the Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[the_one_54321]

Silfren wrote...
precisely because we see parallels to real world

People perceive lots of things that are mistakes.

Silfren wrote...
Especially not when we can make sound arguments that a system could be implemented to counter the problems that mages create without also being oppressive.

That a big stretch of a claim. There are examples of small societies succeeding at this. There are no examples of a widely applicable solution that is also peaceful. You could say that such an argument is worth testing, but to claim that it is sound is unsupportable.

Silfren wrote...
That mages have no actual real world counterpart does not mitigate the oppressiveness of the system we're observing, and it does not change that we can see practices that DO look very much, sometimes exactly like, real world practices.

In the real world all humans are inherently equal. In Thedas, all people are not inherently equal. So the perception of a parallel is a mistake. There is a definitive difference that renders the comparisons inaccurate.

Silfren wrote...
The fact remains that there ARE societies of free mages that demonstrate that free mages do not automatically lead to the Tevinter Imperium.

Granted, but only small society examples exist. All attempts at a large scale peaceful solution have eventually failed.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[Silfren]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
precisely because we see parallels to real world

People perceive lots of things that are mistakes.

Annnd we're done here.  You're not the final arbiter of who is accurate or not in their perceptions.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 avril 2012 - 09:48 .

[the_one_54321]

It's not generally good practice to close off all discussion when you've been told you're mistaken. Lots of people are mistaken about lots of things all the time. I've been corrected times beyond count on these forums.

I'm not stating a disagreement with your conjecture. I'm pointing out that your statement was a logical self-contradiction. Therefore it's impossible that it be accurate.

[Anvos]

Not sure why so many want to use Tevintar as an example of the problem of mage freedom as it hardly seems likely we've gotten more the chantry and an angsty elf with memory issues point of view. Also I don't get why people think it is so bad that in Tevintar they want their nobility to actually have something special that sets them above your average man.

[TJX2045]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
It ain't that far a leap from justifications for real world slavery, after all.

Yes it is. There is a very important distinction here.

There is no real world parallel for the mage in Thedas. There is no equivilant. There is no example that really applies. Being born with magic is a definitively isolating occurrence. Mages are not unique, as there are many mages, but they are strictly unequal to non-mages.

I don't see the distinction.  And you do know that the same logic can be applied to segregation and racism.  Bigots saw minorities as less than them and strictly unequal to them.  And if we're going off of stereotypes, then you could say that because of what stereotypical black people do, all of them (including non-violent ones) are dangerous.  If that is the case, then that also means they must be locked up and enslaved because they are dangerous.

There is no difference except the fact that they are given some supernatural abilities and can be possessed by demons.  BUT the mages who still have their magic had to go through a Harrowing, if you remember from Dragon Age 1.  This means they had to confront temptation in a lent-like ceremony and fight of the demons or die from becoming an abomination.  It was very controlled and the Templars watched over them while it happened.  Those who felt they were not strong enough chose to be made tranquil.  Most mages were fine with this, while the bad apples in the bunch decided to become apostates.

Ferelden Templars treated Mages MUCH BETTER than Kirwall Templars.

Kirkwall's logic is that that because some mages turn on them, ALL mages will turn on them.  Same logic as Fenris, but it's illogical because it's pure conjecture and judgment on what a person MIGHT do when they have no proof that all of them will.

Modifié par TJX2045, 24 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[the_one_54321]

TJX2045 wrote...
I don't see the distinction.  And you do know that the same logic can be applied to segregation and racism.  Bigots saw minorities as less than them and strictly unequal to them.

There is no such thing as magic.

TJX2045 wrote...
There is no difference except the fact that they are given some supernatural abilities and can be possessed by demons.

Yeah.... that.... is exactly what I'm saying.

That is the definitive difference. All arguments must hinge on this difference. It's a,huge, world defining difference. 

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 10:00 .

[TJX2045]

the_one_54321 wrote...

There is no such thing as magic.

 

That is *A* distinction that everyone in this thread is well aware of.  The main reason that I believe they made the mages the way they are in Dragon Age is symbolism.  They are symbols of real life oppression of minorities, racial and sexual orientation-wise, and people who are seen as unequal, but just in a much more drastic way.

the_one_54321 wrote... 

TJX2045 wrote...
There is no difference except the fact that they are given some supernatural abilities and can be possessed by demons.

Yeah.... that.... is exactly what I'm saying.

That is the definitive difference. All arguments must hinge on this difference. It's a,huge, world defining difference. 

This same huge distinction could be applied to people who think that different races have different genes and those genes make them weaker or unequal to the other.  it's subjective.  That could be considered a world defining difference too since with that belief you could say that a sickness or an epidemic would spread and cause destruction among one group of people and not all of them.  They are not completely similar, sure, but it's the same judgment being made on mages.  Also, just because it's a fantasy world doesn't mean that it's completely different and they must be unequal.  All of the mages I've seen for the most part were PUSHED TO THE EDGE by the Templar oppression.

Modifié par TJX2045, 24 avril 2012 - 10:09 .

[TEWR]

the_one_54321 wrote...

There is no such thing as magic.

I'd argue this one based on my own beliefs. Magic in the sense of DA where I can summon fireballs based on my willpower?

No, that doesn't exist. At least, not to my knowledge. Though people have claimed to be pyrokinetics before.

But magic is something that can be defined differently, and I do think there is some form of magic in the world. Not figurative magic like if I were to say "Oh that's magical". I mean an actual form of magic, in some variation.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[TJX2045]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

There is no such thing as magic.

I'd argue this one based on my own beliefs. Magic in the sense of DA where I can summon fireballs based on my willpower?

No, that doesn't exist. At least, not to my knowledge. Though people have claimed to be pyrokinetics before.

But magic is something that can be defined differently, and I do think there is some form of magic in the world.

And here is an example of why Mages are unequal and must be slaves or oppressed the way they are is completely subjective based on your experience with the game and how you play it.  I consider that to be a good thing because it brings different opinions from the gamers and you get interesting insight.  I think that DA2 was too black or white, in my case, Templars being corrupted.  I would like more ambiguity and uncertainty in the next game.

There are real world parallels in this game, they are just not literal and direct.  They are symbolic.

Modifié par TJX2045, 24 avril 2012 - 10:13 .

[the_one_54321]

TJX2045 wrote...
That is *A* distinction that everyone in this thread is well aware of.  The main reason that I believe they made the mages the way they are in Dragon Age is symbolism.  They are symbols of real life oppression of minorities, racial and sexual orientation-wise, and people who are seen as unequal, but just in a much more drastic way.

There are similarities. There are no parallels. There is no instance in human history that is equal to the fictitious presentation of mages in Thedas. Because there are no mages in human history. No humans with magic.

This is literally an uncrossable border in terms of argument. The concepts of slavery and opression, as they exist in human history, are incompatible with history in Thedas because of this definitive difference.

TJX2045 wrote...
This same huge distinction could be applied to people who think that different races have different genes and those genes make them weaker or unequal to the other.

No, that would just be a mistake. Human DNA, at present, still contains all the same building block instructions other than superficial physical differentiation, like melanin concentration and hair color.

TJX2045 wrote...
There are real world parallels in this game, they are just not literal and direct.  They are symbolic.

That's not a real world parallel... That's fiction paralleled with fiction.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[TJX2045]

the_one_54321 wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...
That is *A* distinction that everyone in this thread is well aware of.  The main reason that I believe they made the mages the way they are in Dragon Age is symbolism.  They are symbols of real life oppression of minorities, racial and sexual orientation-wise, and people who are seen as unequal, but just in a much more drastic way.

There are similarities. There are no parallels. There is no instance in human history that is equal to the fictitious presentation of mages in Thedas. Because there are no mages in human history. No humans with magic.

This is literally an uncrossable border in terms of argument. The concepts of slavery and opression, as they exist in human history, are incompatible with history in Thedas because of this definitive difference.

Once again, it is SYMBOLIC.  This is not about whether or not there were really mages, witches and wizards in our world in real life.  We are not focusing on this "definitive difference" because we know it is fictional.  We are focusing on the symbols and the similarities that are made based on things from our past.  If we went with this line of thinking there would be no symbols and there would be no parallels in any fictional work because some of what occurred in said fictional works couldn't happen in the real world.

Also, I'll add this in.

A definition of Parallel: something identical or similar in essential respects.

Essentially, Mages are oppressed by Templars.  Minorities were once oppressed (and some still are) by the Majority.  This is a symbolic parallel.  They are either forced to agree with the Majority (the Templars) or they try to break free from the oppression because they can't take it anymore.

 

the_one_54321 wrote... 

TJX2045 wrote...
This same huge distinction could be applied to people who think that different races have different genes and those genes make them weaker or unequal to the other.

No, that would just be a mistake. Human DNA, at present, still contains all the same building block instructions other than superficial physical differentiation, like melanin concentration and hair color.

Because we have proof that it is a mistake.  What proof do we have aside from the fact that mentally Mages can be possessed?  Aside from having power, are they a different race?  Do they look different?  Are they that completely different from non-mages aside from the fact that they harness great power and must learn to use it with caution?  The oppression of mages could also be a mistake.  There is no definitive proof considering otherwise.

the_one_54321 wrote... 

TJX2045 wrote...
There are real world parallels in this game, they are just not literal and direct.  They are symbolic.

That's not a real world parallel... That's fiction paralleled with fiction.

Reference the first statement after the first quote.

Modifié par TJX2045, 24 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[the_one_54321]

TJX2045 wrote...
A definition of Parallel: something identical or similar in essential respects.

Essentially, Mages are oppressed by Templars.  Minorities were once oppressed (and some still are) by the Majority.  This is a symbolic parallel.  They are either forced to agree with the Majority (the Templars) or they try to break free from the oppression because they can't take it anymore.

Minorities were not unequal to their oppressors. Mages are unequal to their oppressors.

TJX2045 wrote...
Because we have proof that it is a mistake.  What proof do we have aside from the fact that mentally Mages can be possessed?  Aside from having power{1}, are they a different race{2}?  Do they look different{2}?  Are they that completely different from non-mages aside from the fact that they harness great power and must learn to use it with caution{1}?  The oppression of mages could also be a mistake.  There is no definitive proof considering otherwise{3}.

You just listed the proof you asked for{1}, explained that mages are also human/elven/qunarri{2}, and then claimed that the proof you listed doesn't exist{3}.

Applying a certain connotation to a phrase that contradicts what is actually said in the phrase does not make the phrase into something else. You just enumerated exactly how mages are definitively different from non-mages. It's not a trivial difference. It causes much suffereing.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 10:31 .

[TJX2045]

 

the_one_54321 wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...
A definition of Parallel: something identical or similar in essential respects.

Essentially, Mages are oppressed by Templars.  Minorities were once oppressed (and some still are) by the Majority.  This is a symbolic parallel.  They are either forced to agree with the Majority (the Templars) or they try to break free from the oppression because they can't take it anymore.

Minorities were not unequal to their oppressors. Mages are unequal to their oppressors.  

Aside from being different with powers and demons; putting that aside, what makes them unequal?

the_one_54321 wrote... 

TJX2045 wrote...
Because we have proof that it is a mistake.  What proof do we have aside from the fact that mentally Mages can be possessed?  Aside from having power{1}, are they a different race{2}?  Do they look different{2}?  Are they that completely different from non-mages aside from the fact that they harness great power and must learn to use it with caution{1}?  The oppression of mages could also be a mistake.  There is no definitive proof considering otherwise{3}.

You just listed the proof you asked for{1}, explained that mages are also human/elven/qunarri{2}, and then claimed that the proof you listed doesn't exist{3}.

Applying a certain connotation to a phrase that contradicts what is actually said in the phrase does not make the phrase into something else. You just enumerated exactly how mages are definitively different from non-mages. It's not a trivial difference. It causes much suffereing.

1) They have power.  Templars also have power.  They also abuse lyrium.  With this same logic, Templars are unequal to regular people because they have power that makes them dangerous.  And they CAN be possessed.

2) Mages exist AMONG different races.  My question was is there a difference in racial makeup and do they look different from their racial counterparts?  I.E., A regular elf and a mage elf.  Aside from the mage elf having magic powers and POSSIBLY being possessed by demons, what is the difference?  Nothing.

3)  There is proof presented that there is no difference other than what I stated.  That aside from them having power and being able to be possessed in their dreams, they are no different otherwise.

Also, here is someting that I consider to be very important in this debate: the Dalish do not conform to the Circle, and they have their own ways of dealing with magic.  You don't see all of their mages wreaking havoc wherever they walk.  They know how to combat demons and don't need Templars to watch over them when they do.  This is proof that the Templars do not need to oppress mages and treat them like slaves.

Modifié par TJX2045, 24 avril 2012 - 10:43 .

[the_one_54321]

TJX2045 wrote...
1) They have power.  Templars also have power.  They also abuse lyrium.  With this same logic, Templars are unequal to regular people because they have power that makes them dangerous.  And they CAN be possessed.

Agreed. In the same way elves, dwarves, and qunarri are unequal. This came up earlier in the thread. Possession can't normally occur without a mage, or a special location. Mages are still distinct from others in this.

TJX2045 wrote...
2) Mages exist AMONG different races.  My question was is there a difference in racial makeup and do they look different from their racial counterparts?  I.E., A regular elf and a mage elf.  Aside from the mage elf having magic powers and POSSIBLY being possessed by demons, what is the difference?  Nothing.

There doesn't need to be any other differences. The fact that there are no other differences is meaningless. The fact of magic and possession is what matters.

TJX2045 wrote...
3)  There is proof presented that there is no difference other than what I stated.  That aside from them having power and being able to be possessed in their dreams, they are no different otherwise.

Again, the difference you stated is the one that matters. You can't just imply that it doesn't matter. It's all that matters.

TJX2045 wrote...
Also, here is someting that I consider to be very important in this debate: the Dalish do not conform to the Circle, and they have their own ways of dealing with magic.  You don't see all of their mages wreaking havoc wherever they walk.  They know how to combat demons and don't need Templars to watch over them when they do.  This is proof that the Templars do not need to oppress mages and treat them like slaves.

The Dalish are an example of very small societal groups managing their mages. This has never been succesfully applied on a wide scale. If it could be, I'd happily agree that it would be the best solution.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[TJX2045]

the_one_54321 wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...
Also, here is someting that I consider to be very important in this debate: the Dalish do not conform to the Circle, and they have their own ways of dealing with magic.  You don't see all of their mages wreaking havoc wherever they walk.  They know how to combat demons and don't need Templars to watch over them when they do.  This is proof that the Templars do not need to oppress mages and treat them like slaves.

The Dalish are an example of very small societal groups managing their mages. This has never been succesfully applied on a wide scale. If it could be, I'd happily agree that it would be the best solution.

I will say that I agree with you that non mages and mages the are not the same.  However I will also take that a step further and say that Templars need to be treated like mages by the Seekers of the Chantry as the lyrium addiction can corrupt them.  Perhaps then they wouldn't oppress as much as they do and since the chantry answers to a higher power with a majority of them having good intentions and morals, I'd expect less corrupt Templars being allowed to run amok like Meredith "under" Elthina's watchful eye.

Modifié par TJX2045, 24 avril 2012 - 10:51 .