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[Dave of Canada]

esper wrote...

Funny thing is amongst the apostate and the abormination we have encounted the mages being abormination have just as much from the circle as without.

And how much damage did those abominations do to the commonfolk?

[ianvillan]

Lynata wrote...

esper wrote...
Says a lot about how effective the Circle training is to prevent abormination.

Considering how few human non-Circle mages we meet throughout the games, I'd guess it says more about how efficient the Circles are at recruiting people who possess magical potential.

It should be kept in mind that most mages will face temptation - just like any other human - regardless of where they are. All the Circles can do is try to limit their exposure and prevent research into forbidden topics. That this kind of limitation instills another kind of temptation (resistance against this kind of oppression) is, it seems, a price regarded by many as necessary to pay for the safety of all. It's why the Right of Annulment was invented, and fortunately it did not have to be evoked that many times throughout the centuries.

On further note: Advocating mage training without enforcement is a noble ideal, but realistically, few people would show up for a Harrowing voluntarily, and the fact remains that there are indeed mages who won't ever be ready to resist a demon due to a lack in willpower and confidence. It is these cases that are condemned to the Rite of Tranquility by the Circle enchanters themselves. Not to mention that few mages would turn into well-meaning good-doers out of their love for humanity. History has shown time and time again that many people who have access to great power will use it to further their own goals, and the fictional countries we are talking about are cultivating a society that works on the very same dog-eat-dog basis.
It starts with people feeling superior to others (based on their unique abilities) and finishes with the demand for acknowledgement of their status including special rights and privileges. This is unfortunately how humans work.

In other words: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

The same can be said of the templars who believe they have a devine right over mages, If you have a group who are taught they have the right to do as they see fit to another group and that the other group are dangerous and less than human than it will only be a matter of time till they start to do as they see fit to them.

The templars know they can treat the mages how they want and if they mages try to prevent it happening they can call for a right of annulment and wipe out the circle.

[LinksOcarina]

I think we are agreeing that both sides are essentially wrong, but this goes back to a point I made which is perception of both sides. Mages kind of have the stigma of magic by random accident of birth, but because it is so dangerous it is looked upon with suspicion. Templars and the Chantry try to shepard them, but they are just as human (or elven, or dwarven) when treating them.

So it really comes down to how you look at the actions overall. Should the mages be confined and restricted because of what they are? Should the templars be strict and malign because of they have the power over them? It really is an interesting quandary.

[The Elder King]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think we are agreeing that both sides are essentially wrong, but this goes back to a point I made which is perception of both sides. Mages kind of have the stigma of magic by random accident of birth, but because it is so dangerous it is looked upon with suspicion. Templars and the Chantry try to shepard them, but they are just as human (or elven, or dwarven) when treating them.

So it really comes down to how you look at the actions overall. Should the mages be confined and restricted because of what they are? Should the templars be strict and malign because of they have the power over them? It really is an interesting quandary.

From what I saw in the last page, a lot of people believe that one of the side is right, and the other is wrong.

[LinksOcarina]

hhh89 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think we are agreeing that both sides are essentially wrong, but this goes back to a point I made which is perception of both sides. Mages kind of have the stigma of magic by random accident of birth, but because it is so dangerous it is looked upon with suspicion. Templars and the Chantry try to shepard them, but they are just as human (or elven, or dwarven) when treating them.

So it really comes down to how you look at the actions overall. Should the mages be confined and restricted because of what they are? Should the templars be strict and malign because of they have the power over them? It really is an interesting quandary.

From what I saw in the last page, a lot of people believe that one of the side is right, and the other is wrong.

Didn't look so clear cut to me...although a lot of people seem to understand the mage side vs the templar side it felt like.

[ianvillan]

I dont personally believe all templars are bad and all mages good and I also believe the circle could be a good place, Its just there should be fairness and safety for mages what we haven't got now.

As long as you have the right of Tranquility and the right of Annulment and you prevent mages freedoms to marry and have children the mages will never be happy with the circle.

One of the main things to change is this idea of divine right of templars over mages and the idea that mages are cursed.

[the_one_54321]

Dave of Canada wrote...

esper wrote...
Funny thing is amongst the apostate and the abormination we have encounted the mages being abormination have just as much from the circle as without.

And how much damage did those abominations do to the commonfolk?

Zero. Just a lot of dead Templars and mages.

Oh, and on the flip side, a little boy avoided the Cirlce, became an abomination, and nearly wiped out an entire town until the Warden stopped him.

From the events that have been shown in game, it would seem that the ability to effectively and consistently resist a demon is actually significantly rare. After Uldric begins working blood magic on the other mages, they seem to fall readily, despite having all passed a harrowing at some point. And in DAII no one is able to resist demons except Hawke.

LinksOcarina wrote...
So it really comes down to how you look at the actions overall. Should the mages be confined and restricted because of what they are? Should the templars be strict and malign because of they have the power over them? It really is an interesting quandary.

I think the real issue, which pretty much everyone has been ignoring, is the fact that mages and non-mages are not equal by birth, as we typically understand all humans to be. It is a definitive distinction of the nature of their existence. They are not equal, and equal treatment is not ethically necessary.

On the flip side, the mages also have no reason to cooperate, except to avoid conflict and violence.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 17 avril 2012 - 03:57 .

[katiebour]

Lynata wrote...
Considering how few human non-Circle mages we meet throughout the games, I'd guess it says more about how efficient the Circles are at recruiting people who possess magical potential.

"Recruiting?"  Is that where the Templars come knock on doors, asking ever-so-politely if the household would like to volunteer its children for a life in prison?

It should be kept in mind that most mages will face temptation - just like any other human - regardless of where they are. All the Circles can do is try to limit their exposure and prevent research into forbidden topics.

Forbidden topics?  Like, say, blood magic?  We certainly wouldn't want to research how to take a person's blood, put it in a spelled vial, and then use the blood as both a reagent and a power source to connect to that person, enabling them to be hunted throughout their life?

Or perhaps we don't want to research the use of dangerous magic by mundanes through the ingestion of Fade-connective substances like lyrium, or the possession of Tranquil via demon-summoning research?

Funny how the Chantry justifies its hypocrisy when the blood magic or created magical abilities or demon-summoning fit into its agenda.

That this kind of limitation instills another kind of temptation (resistance against this kind of oppression) is, it seems, a price regarded by many as necessary to pay for the safety of all. It's why the Right of Annulment was invented, and fortunately it did not have to be evoked that many times throughout the centuries.

Right, only seventeen times in nearly a thousand years.  Why, that's only once every fifty to sixty years that an entire Circle, including Harrowed mages, Senior Enchanters, five- and six- year old children, talented healers and potential protectors against things like Darkspawn incursions get systematically exterminated.

Anders says that the lyrium-smuggling tunnels used by the resistance have saved the lives of "hundreds" of mages.  Assuming he's not engaging in hyperbole (which admittedly is difficult given his generally melodramatic nature XD) we might calculate that the average Circle contains hundreds of mages.  Given the number of bunkbeds in the apprentice quarters in Origins, plus the quarters for the Harrowed mages and Senior Enchanters, I'd say that one to two hundred mages isn't all that far-fetched.

So if we estimate on the low side that a Circle might have only a hundred people in it, then then the RoA called through the years means that at least 1700 people have been killed regardless of individual innocence or guilt over the years.  Add in the Tranquil, the abused, the raped, the tortured, those whose minds are warped by the torture that is solitary confinement (and as per established Asunder lore,  mage-gifted children/adolescents captured by the Templars, severely beaten, and left so long without medical care in the Circle dungeons that they DIE from their injuries, their unjust death removed from the records by the negligent and murdering Templars in question.)  How many must suffer for a maybe?  How many innocents will suffer significant trauma, be murdered, or simply accept that they live their entire life in a stone prison in the name of neccessity?

On further note: Advocating mage training without enforcement is a noble ideal, but realistically, few people would show up for a Harrowing voluntarily, and the fact remains that there are indeed mages who won't ever be ready to resist a demon due to a lack in willpower and confidence.

A)  What does a Harrowing prove?  Harrowed mages can still make deals with demons, and unHarrowed mages are fully capable of resisting temptation (as per Hawke, Bethany, EVERY SINGLE DALISH KEEPER, RIVAINI SEER AND CHASIND SHAMAN.)  A Harrowing proves a "maybe," and the Templars themselves so lack confidence in its utility that they keep Harrowed mages locked up.  If Harrowed mages are proven to be "safe," then why the hell are they still imprisoned?

 If willpower and confidence in young mages is such a problem, how have the Dalish survived for so long?  Surely their isolated groups would be wiped out by weak mages.  Hell, Merrill says that all elvhen once had a bit of magic; not enough to be a Keeper perhaps, but enough to light a campfire, maybe, or do some impressive special effects at story-telling time, or maybe dowse for water.  If all elves once had magic to some degree, why didn't they wipe themselves out (and the rest of Thedas) with uncontrolled and constant waves of abominations?

C)  But what if mage training involved learning useful skills, learning to command their power, learning to heal, to protect WITHOUT the threat of having having a demon forced into them, or being locked up, or being mistreated and tortured?  I think you'd find mages more than happy to master their craft and sell their services to make a living.

It is these cases that are condemned to the Rite of Tranquility by the Circle enchanters themselves.

Again, if it's so neccessary, then why don't the Dalish and Chasind turn their "weak" mages over to the Circles?  Why aren't there dozens or hundreds of mad abominations destroying the world due to uncontrolled breeding of mage power in Tevinter?

Tevinter is corrupt, politically and morally, but they're not overrun by abominations.  They don't lock their mages up or subject them to Harrowing, and somehow the world has not yet been destroyed in the two thousand years or so that they've been operational.

The Elvhen/Dalish have been around for nearly eight thousand years- see the table at the end of this article:
 dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Amazing that in eight thousand years of magic use uncontrolled by Circles and Templars, the world has yet to be destroyed by demons and abominations.

Not to mention that few mages would turn into well-meaning good-doers out of their love for humanity. History has shown time and time again that many people who have access to great power will use it to further their own goals, and the fictional countries we are talking about are cultivating a society that works on the very same dog-eat-dog basis.

Mm-hm.  
Interesting that Adain, a known blood mage, apostate and killer of Templars, escaped his bondage, engaged in "dangerous" and "forbidden" magic, then settled down, got married, had children, and spent his life doing research.   http://dragonage.wik...y:_Cold-Blooded 

Sounds like a truly dangerous fellow- to Templars.  But to his wife, his children, his neighbors? 

What about Malcolm Hawke?  "My magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base."  Obviously a terrible man for wanting to be free with his wife and children.  And you know, he did terrible things, like raising a lovely and moral daughter who happened to be a mage.

What is your definition of a do-gooder?  Do mages have to subscribe to a lifetime of self-sacrifice to earn freedom?  Wouldn't it be enough to be measured by the same yardstick as every other person in Thedas, to be a good child, sibling, parent, neighbor, member of their community?

I don't believe in any philosophy that relies upon absolutes- saying that EVERY mage is evil or will abuse their power is just as much of a fallacy as to say that EVERY mage is moral or will use their power for good.  But seven thousand years of history don't lie, and just because mages have been imprisoned in the last thousand doesn't negate the previous seven where they co-existed just fine without the Chantry's oppressive system.  There will be bad apples in every bunch, yes, but let other mages and law-enforcement officials hunt down the guilty when needed.

It starts with people feeling superior to others (based on their unique abilities) and finishes with the demand for acknowledgement of their status including special rights and privileges. This is unfortunately how humans work.

In other words: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Again, you are over-simplifying.  Not EVERY powerful person, mage or no, will act out of purely selfish self-interest- Andraste herself is an example of someone who accumulated power and used it for the benefit of others.  We can find plenty of other examples in both Thedas' fictional and our own real-life history of people who are both powerful and good.

Fenris says that not every mage should be given the benefit of a doubt.  I disagree with him completely.  Judge every mage, every man and woman on their own actions, their own morality.  Punish the wicked and as for the good, live and let live.  It's that simple.

[the_one_54321]

katiebour wrote...
How many must suffer for a maybe?  How many innocents will suffer significant trauma, be murdered, or simply accept that they live their entire life in a stone prison in the name of neccessity?

Very eloquent, but ultimately unsupportable conjecture.

It is not an issue of mabe. It is an issue of when.

It is also an issue that results from the fact that mages are not equal to non-mages, and neither side is ethically required to treat the other with equality.

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see how you can seriously claim that only those mages ignorant of outside life would label the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery.

You're quite the little Anders. You know that there are a number of mages who would disagree with your opinion, right?

Lynata, before you make a response, you should try reading the discussion that is going on, so you can avoid making a response that has nothing to do with the actual discussion at hand. Had you bothered to actually read the discussion going on, rather than trying to make some snide remark about me, you would realize that I was addressing that GodWood that the mages who were viewing the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery weren't the "simply the crys of pampered skirts ignorant of the true suffering outside their comfy walls" as he claimed.

I think reading the discussion might help you avoid making a response that has nothing to do with the actual discussion at hand.

Lynata wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because you aren't backing up the claims with any codex entry or character dialogue to support it. This is pure speculation on your part.

He is right, and I am quite certain that I've already delivered sources for this as well.

Once again, you're making a response that has nothing to do with what is actually being discussed. Did you even bother to read the discussions going on? I was addressing the comment from GodWood that civilians would be arrested for attacking or killing a mage; I pointed out that there was no evidence that the law would punish people for attacking and killing a mage, as we hear horror stories from Wynne about how mages are treated in Andrastian society. That's all I did.

Lynata wrote...

In fact, several people did, but you either forgot it or simply chose to ignore it in favor of your extremist opinion. Here, in another thread you've actually quoted it yourself:

http://social.biowar...812/72#11364213 

You realize that link has nothing to do with GodWood's claims that if "civilians were caught murdering a mage who was proven to be innocent they'd be punished" because it addresses another topic entirely? Or my response that there is no evidence supporting his claim that people would be punished?

Lynata wrote...

Also, regardless of your attempts to paint them as a bunch of rapists and sadistic torturers, the Templar Order's official purpose includes protecting the mages from the common folk, just as they protect the common folk from magic, in essence forming a barrier between the two - and indeed often finding themselves as a buffer between outraged commoners and unlucky mages, as also thematized in David Gaider's latest novel "Asunder", where Knight-Captain Evangeline intervenes on behalf of Wynne, Rhys and Adrian.

I've never claimed that all templars were evil, and I have continually addressed that one of Dragon Age II's failings is how the templar antagonists are written to be as one-dimensional as the mage antagonists are. I have pointed out that I thought the first game did a much better job at conveying the dichotomy between mages and templars without villifying either side - as we see with Ser Bryant, the Lothering templars, Ser Otto, and even Knight-Commander Greagoir. However, what does this have to do with the discussion I was having with GodWood? Why did you put so much effort into making a response that has nothing to do with what I was actually saying? The discussion after the issue of common folk attacking mages had to do with the Circle of Kirkwall, not with the Order of Templars.

Lynata wrote...

Sheesh, you should at least be capable of accepting that the situation isn't as "black and white" as you paint it to be, but apparently it's easier to cling to hearsay, Anders' propaganda and some half-truth legends about your ancient rebel mage hero who has never actually seen a Circle from the inside.

Why did you bother responding to me if you weren't even going to read what I actually wrote, or what I was responding to? Your entire response to me has had nothing to do with what I was discussing with GodWood.

Lynata wrote...

Is it so hard to see that every side has valid points - and that it is exactly this that makes the situation so complicated? Apparently.

The next time you decide to respond to me, please read what I actually wrote beforehand.

[katiebour]

the_one_54321 wrote...

katiebour wrote...
How many must suffer for a maybe?  How many innocents will suffer significant trauma, be murdered, or simply accept that they live their entire life in a stone prison in the name of neccessity?

Very eloquent, but ultimately unsupportable conjecture.

It is not an issue of mabe. It is an issue of when.

Very eloquent, but ultimately unsupportable conjecture.  There is no proof that any mage will ever become possessed, no absolute that says X number of mages are going to turn into abominations and kill people.

It is also an issue that results from the fact that mages are not equal to non-mages, and neither side is ethically required to treat the other with equality.

I disagree that mages are not equal to non-mages.  Both have equal capacity for good or evil.  

Rendon Howe ran dungeons where he tortured and killed people.  
Teryn Loghain left his king and all the Grey Wardens to die.  
Meredith and Elthina ordered and/or allowed the mind-rape of dozens of innocent and Harrowed mages in contravention of the laws established by their own organization.  
The Qunari killed hundreds if not thousands of innocents in Kirkwall.  
Castillion took boatloads of refugees and sold them into slavery.  
The Crows regularly assassinate anyone regardless of guilt or innocence in exchange for payment.

None of them were mages and all of them committed evil acts against dozens or hundreds of innocents.

As Anders says, it doesn't take magic for someone to be a cold-blooded killer.

And yes, neither side is required to treat the other ethically, but neither can they claim the moral high ground if they're engaging in reprehensible acts.

[the_one_54321]

katiebour wrote...
Very eloquent, but ultimately unsupportable conjecture.  There is no proof that any mage will ever become possessed, no absolute that says X number of mages are going to turn into abominations and kill people.

There is absolute statistical proof. You cann't point at one person and say "you will become an abomination." But if you take all mages together you can say definitively "some of you will become abominations."

katiebour wrote...
I disagree that mages are not equal to non-mages.  Both have equal capacity for good or evil.

Irrelevant. The distinction is definitive. Mages have magic. Non-mages do not. There is nothing that can change this and no alternative interpretation. This is the way things are in Thedas.

When two species are a mutual threat to safety, there is almost always conflict and violence, and no one typically views this as inappropriate. Mages and non-mages are as different as two seperate species. They could agree to cooperate with each other to avoid conflict and violence. That would be the only reason to do so.

[the_one_54321]

The argument that the Circle, Templars, and Chantry are ineffective at controlling the dangers of mages only supports the more extreme argument that all mages should be treated as the Qunarri do, or simply euthanized as soon as discovered.

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

esper wrote...

Says a lot about how effective the Circle training is to prevent abormination.

Considering how few human non-Circle mages we meet throughout the games, I'd guess it says more about how efficient the Circles are at recruiting people who possess magical potential.

There have been seventeen Rights of Annulment in the history of Thedas. The Warden has to deal with the Circle of Ferelden being overrun with abominations that the templars can't handle, to the point where Knight-Commander Greagoir is seriously considering invoking the Right of Annulment. I don't see how that demonstrates how effective the Chantry controlled Circles are at preventing possession.

Also, the Circles don't "recruit" people, they mages are taken away from their families when they first demonstrate magical ability, and the mages are put in a Circle Tower for the rest of their lives; unless they become a Grey Warden, run away and become an apostate, or commit suicide.

Lynata wrote...

It should be kept in mind that most mages will face temptation - just like any other human - regardless of where they are. All the Circles can do is try to limit their exposure and prevent research into forbidden topics. That this kind of limitation instills another kind of temptation (resistance against this kind of oppression) is, it seems, a price regarded by many as necessary to pay for the safety of all. It's why the Right of Annulment was invented, and fortunately it did not have to be evoked that many times throughout the centuries.

The Right of Annulment had to be invoked at least 17 times before. I would say that it has transpired quite a lot.

Lynata wrote...

On further note: Advocating mage training without enforcement is a noble ideal, but realistically, few people would show up for a Harrowing voluntarily, and the fact remains that there are indeed mages who won't ever be ready to resist a demon due to a lack in willpower and confidence. It is these cases that are condemned to the Rite of Tranquility by the Circle enchanters themselves. Not to mention that few mages would turn into well-meaning good-doers out of their love for humanity. History has shown time and time again that many people who have access to great power will use it to further their own goals, and the fictional countries we are talking about are cultivating a society that works on the very same dog-eat-dog basis.

Considering that the Harrowing is pretty much throwing a mage to the wolves, and hoping that he (or she) is cunning enough to realize what the test is really about, I don't see the point. The Harrowing doesn't prevent mages from becoming possessed and turning into abominations. I think informing mages about the dangers of the Fade, and how cunning demons can be, would be more valuable than throwing a mage into the Fade, and hoping he can see through the smoke and mirrors of a cunning demon.

Also, considering that mages contributed to all the Blights that threatened Thedas (Asunder), and the Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led forces fighting against the Qunari and their advanced technology (in the New Exalted Marches, written by Brother Genitivi), we already have mages historically using their abilities for the benefit of humanity.

Lynata wrote...

It starts with people feeling superior to others (based on their unique abilities) and finishes with the demand for acknowledgement of their status including special rights and privileges. This is unfortunately how humans work.

In other words: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

I think some mages would prefer to simply be free of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. To fall in love, get married, raise their children, and not be hated for being different. Being free of the rule of the Chantry and its templars is the entire premise behind the Magi boon that can be requested by the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden. After saving the world from the Fifth Blight, the mage protagonist can forgo a title and riches, and simply ask for his people to be given their independence.

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You realize that link has nothing to do with GodWood's claims that if "civilians were caught murdering a mage who was proven to be innocent they'd be punished" because it addresses another topic entirely? Or my response that there is no evidence supporting his claim that people would be punished?

No, I don't. But I suppose you are now going to propose that these rights mentioned in the quote do not include the very most basic one - protection from undue harm and random harassment. Never mind that we see templars actually enforcing it in "Asunder".

Instead, these rights the mages have must then be about something really random, like being allowed to breathe at a frequency of their own choosing or having the freedom to close their eyes whilst talking.

Sigh.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The next time you decide to respond to me, please read what I actually wrote beforehand.

I wasn't addressing any point of the debate beforehand, I was specifically referring to the remarks you made, which I maintain are incorrect. Not that we'll ever agree on any of it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, the Circles don't "recruit" people, they mages are taken away from their families when they first demonstrate magical ability, and the mages are put in a Circle Tower for the rest of their lives; unless they become a Grey Warden, run away and become an apostate, or commit suicide.

I knew someone would pick on it.
I actually considered adding a "(or rounded up, if you prefer a more colorful description)", but I suppose this still wouldn't have sounded evil and oppressive enough.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Right of Annulment had to be invoked at least 17 times before. I would say that it has transpired quite a lot.

17 times throughout seven centuries throughout all twenty Circle towers of all Andrastean nations throughout Thedas isn't quite "a lot".

But I guess opinions on this will differ.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering that the Harrowing is pretty much throwing a mage to the wolves, and hoping that he (or she) is cunning enough to realize what the test is really about, I don't see the point. The Harrowing doesn't prevent mages from becoming possessed and turning into abominations. I think informing mages about the dangers of the Fade, and how cunning demons can be, would be more valuable than throwing a mage into the Fade, and hoping he can see through the smoke and mirrors of a cunning demon.

The Harrowing doesn't prevent mages from becoming possessed, but it does weed out those who are incapable of ever resisting such an encounter in the first place, the latter being a risk that all mages have to live with - and the thousands of men, women and children that would be endangered if these weak-willed mages would not be taken out of the equation.

Also, mages are taught about the dangers of demons, how they work and that the nature of the Harrowing is. We've been over this and I have provided sources. If you wish to disregard them in favor of just labeling all Circles as useless ... well, if that's how you see the setting, it's certainly not something anyone can influence.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, considering that mages contributed to all the Blights that threatened Thedas (Asunder), and the Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led forces fighting against the Qunari and their advanced technology (in the New Exalted Marches, written by Brother Genitivi), we already have mages historically using their abilities for the benefit of humanity.

Of course - these mages were part of the Chantry and it is in their best interest to make themselves useful. Do not assume they would not benefit from all of this themselves.

Not that I actually think there wouldn't be certain exceptional invidivuals who would genuinely be interested in selflessly helping people, mind you. I'm realistic about this, which means acknowledging variances in personalities instead of labeling an entire group. At the same time, however, said realism dictates (to me) that people hailing from a society based on egoism will have a strong tendency to think of themselves first before thinking of the greater good or the dangers their personal ambitions pose unless they are kept in check by a balancing power. Actually, as we have seen with Jowan, not even the Circles can eradicate this way of thinking entirely but merely dampen it.

And the problem with mages is that unlike with the vast majority of "mundanes", anyone not following this selfless path but his own uncontrolled ambitions has a high chance of becoming a problem, either intentionally or unintentionally. In fact, even well-meaning ones are susceptible ... I recall in another thread that it was pointed out how Merrill is always the first one to turn against Hawke; a deliberate design decision based on her personality.

In the end, it boils down to mages being just as flawed as anyone else - yet being far, far more dangerous due to their unique abilities which have much potential for abuse and great tragedy. Basically, what DG has explained here.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think some mages would prefer to simply be free of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. To fall in love, get married, raise their children, and not be hated for being different. Being free of the rule of the Chantry and its templars is the entire premise behind the Magi boon that can be requested by the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden. After saving the world from the Fifth Blight, the mage protagonist can forgo a title and riches, and simply ask for his people to be given their independence.

Yes, and unfortunately we will never see how this fails miserably, given that the magi boon does not actually happen.

But maybe a future title will deal with this issue when the mage-faction (or a portion of it) wins the upcoming war, or at least manages to occupy and separate some region to lord over.

Modifié par Lynata, 17 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize that link has nothing to do with GodWood's claims that if "civilians were caught murdering a mage who was proven to be innocent they'd be punished" because it addresses another topic entirely? Or my response that there is no evidence supporting his claim that people would be punished?[/quote]

No, I don't. But I suppose you are now going to propose that these rights mentioned in the quote do not include the very most basic one - protection from undue harm and random harassment. Never mind that we see templars actually enforcing it in "Asunder".

Instead, these rights the mages have must then be about something really random, like being allowed to breathe at a frequency of their own choosing or having the freedom to close their eyes whilst talking. [/quote]

You're conflating the issue of Gaider addressing that Circle mages have certain privledges inside the Circle Tower with the discussion of what would happen to a mob that killed a mage, which is know is a possibility from Wynne's discussion about mages outside the Circle Tower, as well as Mother Hannah's words to an Amell Warden.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The next time you decide to respond to me, please read what I actually wrote beforehand.[/quote]

I wasn't addressing any point of the debate beforehand, I was specifically referring to the remarks you made, which I maintain are incorrect. Not that we'll ever agree on any of it. [/quote]

You responded to specific passages by quoting them and made responses that had nothing to do with the discussion of those specific passages.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, the Circles don't "recruit" people, they mages are taken away from their families when they first demonstrate magical ability, and the mages are put in a Circle Tower for the rest of their lives; unless they become a Grey Warden, run away and become an apostate, or commit suicide.[/quote]

I knew someone would pick on it.
I actually considered adding a "(or rounded up, if you prefer a more colorful description)", but I suppose this still wouldn't have sounded evil and oppressive enough. [/quote]

I think the Chantry controlled Circles are wrong. It's my view, and I know you have the opposite view.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Right of Annulment had to be invoked at least 17 times before. I would say that it has transpired quite a lot.[/quote]

17 times throughout seven centuries throughout all twenty Circle towers of all Andrastean nations throughout Thedas isn't quite "a lot".

But I guess opinions on this will differ. [/quote]

Considering that we are addressing how an entire population of men, women, and children are executed during each Right of Annulment, our opinions strongly differ.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the Harrowing is pretty much throwing a mage to the wolves, and hoping that he (or she) is cunning enough to realize what the test is really about, I don't see the point. The Harrowing doesn't prevent mages from becoming possessed and turning into abominations. I think informing mages about the dangers of the Fade, and how cunning demons can be, would be more valuable than throwing a mage into the Fade, and hoping he can see through the smoke and mirrors of a cunning demon.[/quote]

The Harrowing doesn't prevent mages from becoming possessed, but it does weed out those who are incapable of ever resisting such an encounter in the first place, the latter being a risk that all mages have to live with - and the thousands of men, women and children that would be endangered if these weak-willed mages would not be taken out of the equation.

Also, mages are taught about the dangers of demons, how they work and that the nature of the Harrowing is. We've been over this and I have provided sources. If you wish to disregard them in favor of just labeling all Circles as useless ... well, if that's how you see the setting, it's certainly not something anyone can influence. [/quote]

Jowan doesn't know what the Harrowing is about. First Enchanter Irving tells the mage protagonist not to discuss what the Harrowing is about to his (or her) fellow mages. Knight-Commander Greagoir stops Irving from even discussing very vague suggestions about what to be warry about in the Fade.

The entire premise in the Magi Origin is that the Harrowing is a secret, which is backed up by the codex entries that veil the entire ordeal in secrecy.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, considering that mages contributed to all the Blights that threatened Thedas (Asunder), and the Circle mages were the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led forces fighting against the Qunari and their advanced technology (in the New Exalted Marches, written by Brother Genitivi), we already have mages historically using their abilities for the benefit of humanity.[/quote]

Of course - these mages were part of the Chantry and it is in their best interest to make themselves useful. Do not assume they would not benefit from all of this themselves.

Not that I actually think there wouldn't be certain exceptional invidivuals who would genuinely be interested in selflessly helping people, mind you. I'm realistic about this, which means acknowledging variances in personalities instead of labeling an entire group. At the same time, however, said realism dictates (to me) that people hailing from a society based on egoism will have a strong tendency to think of themselves first before thinking of the greater good or the dangers their personal ambitions pose unless they are kept in check by a balancing power. Actually, as we have seen with Jowan, not even the Circles can eradicate this way of thinking entirely but merely dampen it.

And the problem with mages is that unlike with the vast majority of "mundanes", anyone not following this selfless path but his own uncontrolled ambitions has a high chance of becoming a problem, either intentionally or unintentionally. In fact, even well-meaning ones are susceptible ... I recall in another thread that it was pointed out how Merrill is always the first one to turn against Hawke; a deliberate design decision based on her personality.

In the end, it boils down to mages being just as flawed as anyone else - yet being far, far more dangerous due to their unique abilities which have much potential for abuse and great tragedy. Basically, what DG has explained here. [/quote]

Jowan can use his magical abilities to protect refugees as Master Levyn. He uses his freedom to keep people safe from the darkspawn.

Your link is to a post made by IanPolaris addressing why he thought the Right of Annulment was illegal, not realizing how asinine (and unrealistic) the Chantry system actually was in giving a subservient branch of their organization that much authority.

[quote]Lynata wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think some mages would prefer to simply be free of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. To fall in love, get married, raise their children, and not be hated for being different. Being free of the rule of the Chantry and its templars is the entire premise behind the Magi boon that can be requested by the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Ferelden. After saving the world from the Fifth Blight, the mage protagonist can forgo a title and riches, and simply ask for his people to be given their independence.[/quote]

Yes, and unfortunately we will never see how this fails miserably, given that the magi boon does not actually happen.

But maybe a future title will deal with this issue when the mage-faction (or a portion of it) wins the upcoming war, or at least manages to occupy and separate some region to lord over. [/quote]

Simply because the Magi boon doesn't happen doesn't change that a mage can use the opportunity to try to free his people from "their shackles" (as Irving put it), rather than pursue wealth and a title for his own benefit.

If mages are fighting to maintain their autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, I think their focus would be on maintaining their freedom.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[The Elder King]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I wish that DA2 hadn't made the mage-templar conflict so one-sided. There are so many evil, amoral and vile mages in DA2 and basically just Meredith to represent the nuts on the other side. Any logical person would agree that the mages need to be kept in the Circle.

There were at least one Templar in DA2 on the negative side (the one in Ander's quest). He was far worse than Meredith (who was in Act 3 heavily influenced by her sword), and in my opinion was far worse than the majority of blood mages we encountered in DA2.
The conflict isn't one sided in the slightest. I think that both the Circle and the Templar Order in Kirkwall were the worse side of both mages and templars.
Even if the templars were the "good guys",Meredith declared the Righ of Annulment (condamning to death every mages, even children) for the action of one apostate, who the Templars (for the rules they follow) should've arrested years ago. It was the templar's fault that Anders was free and blew up the Chantry, not the mages. It was for the templar's actions over mages (which in Kirkwall was really bad) that Anders decided to blew up the Chantry and trigger a war.

[ianvillan]

I think a problem with Dragon Age 2 was that we never had a Templar companion who could give us their point of view, all we had was Anders and him fighting for the mages.

Plus the main villan was a insane Templar who we hardly spoke to in the whole game.

[the_one_54321]

Anders is also intended to have many Hawkes fall in love with him. Want to talk about situational emotional bias?

[The Elder King]

ianvillan wrote...

I think a problem with Dragon Age 2 was that we never had a Templar companion who could give us their point of view, all we had was Anders and him fighting for the mages.

Plus the main villan was a insane Templar who we hardly spoke to in the whole game.

About the main villain part, Bioware did that wrong. They should've made two differen path in the final mission: one for the Templar side, when you defeat Orsino (without the relations with Quentin) and one for the mage side, when you defeat Meredith (without the lyrium sword). It'd have been much better in my opinion
About the insane part SPOLER WARNING





Meredith wasn't insane from the start. If so, she would've approved the Tranquil Solution. Her parents (I don't remember if she had other siblings) were massacrated by an abomination, which was her sister. Their parents hide her (not sure on that part). It was similar to what happened to Fenris. Magic destroyed their life.
I'm not saying that what she did was right. As I said in my previous post, I thing mages and templars shown their worse part in Kirkwall. Yet, I can comprehend why Meredith had such a view on magic. People's view are inflluenced by their experiences.

[ianvillan]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Anders is also intended to have many Hawkes fall in love with him. Want to talk about situational emotional bias?

True merrill as well, it would of been better if they would of had a major Mage villan and spread the villans story over 3 acts instead of the last act where Orsinio who you dont even know just does the most stupid thing in the game which just seems to be forced in there to have a boss fight.

[Lynata]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You're conflating the issue of Gaider addressing that Circle mages have certain privledges inside the Circle Tower with the discussion of what would happen to a mob that killed a mage, which is know is a possibility from Wynne's discussion about mages outside the Circle Tower, as well as Mother Hannah's words to an Amell Warden.

I'd just like to know what could possibly have brought you to to the conclusion that the death of a mage would be ignored, given that they qualify both as citizens as well as Chantry personnel. Even if we'd take the cold-hearted road and judge them by "material value" and the sheer amount of wealth invested into their training, a mage is worth far more than some bum who gets killed in a dark alley.

I have seen templars defending Circle mages from the common people.
I have not seen the authorities officially ignoring manslaughter (etc) on anyone.

Officially, even the city elves are protected by law. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a Circle mage is worth less than an elven immigrant?

LobselVith8 wrote...
You responded to specific passages by quoting them and made responses that had nothing to do with the discussion of those specific passages.

Yes. So? When I spot something that I regard as an incorrect claim, I do not have to engage in the discussion where it was made. Facts don't change depending on context.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Jowan doesn't know what the Harrowing is about. First Enchanter Irving tells the mage protagonist not to discuss what the Harrowing is about to his (or her) fellow mages. Knight-Commander Greagoir stops Irving from even discussing very vague suggestions about what to be warry about in the Fade.

They don't know the details - which is, of course, understandable if we keep in mind that the very purpose of the Harrowing is the "simulation" of an unexpected encounter with a demon in the Fade - the kind that mages are at risk from. Telling the apprentices in detail what nature of demon the enchanters are sensing and giving him hints on what kind of tactic said demon may employ would render the entire test useless. Demons usually do not announce themselves, and when a mage faces on in the Fade he rarely has outside help to guide him through. This is what the Harrowing attempts to recreate - the full risk in all its potential. Only then will the Circle know if the apprentice is capable of resisting.

"The ultimate test of a Circle mage is the secret and sacred rite of the Harrowing. It is the event every Circle apprentice studies, trains, and prepares for. The Harrowing looms large for apprentices in part because the enchanters of the apprentice's circle decide, on their own and in secret, when and if the apprentice is ready for the rite. When they do so the apprentice is taken, without warning or preparation, to face the Harrowing. It can come at any time, and so one must always be ready. [...]"
-- DARPG Set 2

tl;dr: The rite is secret, but what happens is something the mages have been preparing for years.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Jowan can use his magical abilities to protect refugees as Master Levyn. He uses his freedom to keep people safe from the darkspawn.

Yet he began dabbling in blood magic solely out of a lust for power as he freely admits to the player mage.
I think it's safe to say that not every human being who ever did somethign wrong later came to see the error of their ways.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Your link is to a post made by IanPolaris addressing why he thought the Right of Annulment was illegal, not realizing how asinine (and unrealistic) the Chantry system actually was in giving a subservient branch of their organization that much authority.

The link leads to an entire thread of posts where David Gaider has addressed the dangers posed by mages, and the naivety of posters disregarding them or their effect on the Thedan population.

But I also don't quite follow the criticism regarding the authority of a Knight-Commander now. Say an entire tower circle suddenly turns into abominations and manages to kill the local Grand Cleric - by your reasoning, does this mean that the KC is supposed to send word to the Divine in faraway Orlais before he'd be allowed to act?
Contingency plans are not unrealistic.

LobselVith8 wrote...
If mages are fighting to maintain their autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, I think their focus would be on maintaining their freedom.

Of course this includes occupying or raiding the countryside, given that they need to eat or maybe want a couple new clothes. Autonomy comes with the requirement of economy, and since mages don't have one by themselves they'd probably be forced to turn into bandits like the early Fereldan resistance fighters. Well, somewhat more dangerous.

hhh89 wrote...
The conflict isn't one sided in the slightest. I
think that both the Circle and the Templar Order in Kirkwall were the
worse side of both mages and templars.

/agree

I believe David Gaider talked a bit about this, too, and it's a criticism raised by a lot of people. I do think it was pulled off better in DA:O - though neither title has yet confronted us with a situation where the Annulment could have been argued to be the better solution. Then again, if BioWare ever did this, people would probably complain about being given no chance for a positive outcome, even if that would miss the point.

Modifié par Lynata, 17 avril 2012 - 09:01 .

[The Elder King]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Anders is also intended to have many Hawkes fall in love with him. Want to talk about situational emotional bias?

Even if I romanced him in my playthrough (which would've happened, if I'd have chosen to start with a female Hawke), and even if I sided with the mages, I'd probably have killed Anders.
No matter the situation of the mages, he killed a lot of innocent people. That people deserve justice, he said that at hte end.(and in aparty banter too). He deserves death, in my opinion.
Though I understand and agree with what you said.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

I think a problem with Dragon Age 2 was that we never had a Templar companion who could give us their point of view, all we had was Anders and him fighting for the mages.

Plus the main villan was a insane Templar who we hardly spoke to in the whole game.

About the main villain part, Bioware did that wrong. They should've made two differen path in the final mission: one for the Templar side, when you defeat Orsino (without the relations with Quentin) and one for the mage side, when you defeat Meredith (without the lyrium sword). It'd have been much better in my opinion
About the insane part SPOLER WARNING





Meredith wasn't insane from the start. If so, she would've approved the Tranquil Solution. Her parents (I don't remember if she had other siblings) were massacrated by an abomination, which was her sister. Their parents hide her (not sure on that part). It was similar to what happened to Fenris. Magic destroyed their life.
I'm not saying that what she did was right. As I said in my previous post, I thing mages and templars shown their worse part in Kirkwall. Yet, I can comprehend why Meredith had such a view on magic. People's view are inflluenced by their experiences.

I would of liked to get to know meredith from the start and hear her side of the events about how she wants to help the mages but that they keep getting worse so she has to crack down harder and how she doesn't like it but she sees no other choise in the matter.

you could of also had Orsinio giving his opinions of how its getting worse and how he is loosing mages more and more and how hes worried the templars might be forced to do the right of annulment.

What I would also liked to see is that Hawke captures the templar who was raping the mages in Anders loyalty quest and he takes him to Meredith, we could then see Meredith be horrified at what happened and we see her punish the templar.