269 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

No, all I'm suggesting is that mages are a unique and significant danger by birth.

Solution consideration comes after establishment of the nature of the problem.

People who disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles still think that mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities, they simply don't think that a religious organization that believes they have "dominance over mages by divine right" should be a part of it.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
People who disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles still think that mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities, they simply don't think that a religious organization that believes they have "dominance over mages by divine right" should be a part of it.

I think that's what you are suggesting. I don't know that it necessarily applies to "people who disagree with Chantry controlled Circles."

However, back to the point at hand, mages are born with an innately dangerous nature, yes? 

[berelinde]

the_one_54321 wrote...
However, back to the point at hand, mages are born with an innately dangerous nature, yes? 

So are most people. Some people are stronger than others, or faster, or possess magic, but these are all just talents to be developed. Choice makes a person dangerous, what they elect to do with their talents, not the abilities themselves.

If someone is raised to believe that they are inhuman, a non-person, and if they are separated from others and treated as tools to be used, is it really that surprising if they behave accordingly? People learn to interact with each other and respect each other through shared social experiences. Take that away and you increase the odds that the person will grow up as a sociopath.

[the_one_54321]

berelinde wrote...
So are most people. Some people are stronger than others, or faster, or possess magic, but these are all just talents to be developed. Choice makes a person dangerous, what they elect to do with their talents, not the abilities themselves.

You make an inaccurate parallel. No one can choose or not choose to have magic. They are either born with it or not.

Having magic carries with it a danger that no non-mage will ever have access to.

[The Elder King]

berelinde wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
However, back to the point at hand, mages are born with an innately dangerous nature, yes? 

So are most people. Some people are stronger than others, or faster, or possess magic, but these are all just talents to be developed. Choice makes a person dangerous, what they elect to do with their talents, not the abilities themselves.

A strong person couldn't be possessed (without someone forcing the demon in him), while a mage can be possessed. That's the real difference between mages and non mages. They are more dangerous than the non-mages, and they need to be trained, so that they can resist demons.
This doesn't mean that Circle method is the best. I'm not judging now if the Circle methos is the only method to train mages, but I'm saying that mages are far more dangerous than other people by their nature, and they need to be trained.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

A strong person couldn't be possessed (without someone forcing the demon in him), while a mage can be possessed. That's the real difference between mages and non mages. They are more dangerous than the non-mages, and they need to be trained, so that they can resist demons.

Regular people can be possessed without the intervention of a mage (as demons can enter the real world where the Veil is thin due to death, as we see in the orphanage in the Alienage and in the Brecillian Forest), they simply can't become abominations (possessed mages). It's addressed in the Magi Origin that spirits and demons are drawn to mages because they can enter the Fade awake, and the denizens of the Fade are aware of this.

hhh89 wrote...

This doesn't mean that Circle method is the best. I'm not judging now if the Circle methos is the only method to train mages, but I'm saying that mages are far more dangerous than other people by their nature, and they need to be trained.

I don't think anyone on either side of the templar or mage argument disputes that mages need to be properly trained in the use of their abilities, or that magic can be dangerous. It all comes down to whether the Chantry controlled Circle is the best method to handle the situation or not, which is where you have the divide between people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and people who disagree with it.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think anyone on either side of the templar or mage argument disputes that mages need to be properly trained in the use of their abilities, or that magic can be dangerous.

I think there are plenty of people that want to apply modern concepts of equality to mages. But these concepts do not apply, because mages are fictional and definitively not equal. It is a very important notion to explore.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It all comes down to whether the Chantry controlled Circle is the best method to handle the situation or not, which is where you have the divide between people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and people who disagree with it.

Given the status quo, how would you suggest avoiding conflict? 

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think anyone on either side of the templar or mage argument disputes that mages need to be properly trained in the use of their abilities, or that magic can be dangerous.

I think there are plenty of people that want to apply modern concepts of equality to mages. But these concepts do not apply, because mages are fictional and definitively not equal. It is a very important notion to explore.

It's part of the history of Thedas that Aldenon the Great wanted to build a kingdom where all people would be treated equally, which is why he aided Teyrn Calenhad in forming Ferelden from warring teyrnirs. Anders wants equality for mages, and he even suggests that the elves in the Alienage should rise up to fight for their rights alongside mages. It's not as though this is an unknown concept in the fictional setting we are discussing. A pro-mage Hawke can share Anders' views about the mage situation, and Merrill often argues in favor of mages.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It all comes down to whether the Chantry controlled Circle is the best method to handle the situation or not, which is where you have the divide between people who agree with the Chantry controlled Circles, and people who disagree with it.

Given the status quo, how would you suggest avoiding conflict? 

I don't think there's a compromise to be reached given what has transpired. So far, the renegade templars and the rebel mages want the exact opposite of each other, and I don't see the middle ground when each side wants the exact opposite from the other.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not as though this is an unknown concept in the fictional setting we are discussing.

True. But it's incorrect when applied to mages. Arguably, it's also inaccurate when applied to elves, except that elves do not posses any inherent danger simply by being elves.

All that is available is compromise. Nothing except tranquility takes away the danger that a mage can potentially pose.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think there's a compromise to be reached given what has transpired. So far, the renegade templars and the rebel mages want the exact opposite of each other, and I don't see the middle ground when each side wants the exact opposite from the other.

Then there's no apparent reason to avoid quelling a mage uprising with extreme prejudice. And likewise no reason why the mages shouldn't embrace their state of being and declare war on non-mages.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

A strong person couldn't be possessed (without someone forcing the demon in him), while a mage can be possessed. That's the real difference between mages and non mages. They are more dangerous than the non-mages, and they need to be trained, so that they can resist demons.

Regular people can be possessed without the intervention of a mage (as demons can enter the real world where the Veil is thin due to death, as we see in the orphanage in the Alienage and in the Brecillian Forest), they simply can't become abominations (possessed mages). It's addressed in the Magi Origin that spirits and demons are drawn to mages because they can enter the Fade awake, and the denizens of the Fade are aware of this.

Yes, but this are exceptional cases. If a non-mage is in a place where a demon can't enter in the real world, he can't be possessed. A mage, howewer, in this case, could be possessed. That was what I meant.
Of course, in a non-mage and a mage go in a place where the Veil is thin, or if, for an exceptional case, they go in the Fade, the mage has more chances to resist possession, since he's trained to resist, and the non-mage isn't.

[TJX2045]

*EDIT: Mods, I intended this to be spoiler free, but if it has something you would consider to be spoiler-ish, feel free to edit it.*

Dragon Age II really bothered me with this.  It frustrated me.  In DA:O, there were more gray-area Templars and more moral ones than immoral, so it seemed.

In DA2, every templar is doing one of the following:

1) They believe mages are weapons/things, and not actual people

2) They abuse and torture mages, and traquilize mages that simply just want to visit a friend or a family member.

3) They want to help mages, but they are forced to deal with Templars 1 & 2.

4) They defected from the Templar organization and help mages flee (which there was only 1 Templar in DA2).

The majority of them in DA2 were 1 & 2, or both combined.  This irritated me the most because I knew what the choice would come down to after Act 3's events in the beginning, but I still felt no compelling reason to side with the Templars.  I always felt like the Meredith was just a power hungry b**** and was a religious fanatic paralleling real life cutlists/extremists.  I even hated Cullen even more in DA2 until the end of the game.

And don't even get me started on how my canon characters are mage and after I saved that Templar from the blood mages, he went on to say how all mages are dangerous.  <_<  It made me wish there was an option to just let him die.  LOL.

I always sided with the mages my first playthrough, and in most subsequent ones.  When I sided with Templars for the trophy, I cringed.  I absolutely hated it.  I didn't feel morally confused or indecisive about who was right or wrong.  It felt like supporting the bullies picking on the nerdy kids and eventually driving them crazy and causing them to kill someone or kill themselves.

I want more ambiguity on who is right or wrong.  I want to be confused about who to trust more or who to side with more to the point where I have to pause the game or just not choose anything for a minute to figure out what I think the best choice for each situation is.  I also don't want to penalize EVERYONE, including the good people, just for being who they are.

the_one_54321 wrote...

berelinde wrote...
So are most people. Some people are stronger than others, or faster, or possess magic, but these are all just talents to be developed. Choice makes a person dangerous, what they elect to do with their talents, not the abilities themselves.

You make an inaccurate parallel. No one can choose or not choose to have magic. They are either born with it or not. 

Having magic carries with it a danger that no non-mage will ever have access to. 

But what they CHOOSE to do with it and what they choose in regards to the demons trying to turn them in the fade is what determines their threat level.

The idea that all mages are dangerous and should be treated like things and not people bothered me the most about many of the Templars in DA2.  We know they are dangerous because they are threatened by demons, but the idea that the Templars see them as weapons makes me think that corrupted Templars see all mages as slaves with no identity.  Many of the ones in DA2 feel this way and it bothered me to no end.

Modifié par TJX2045, 20 avril 2012 - 07:22 .

[ianvillan]

In Dragon Age 3 I would like to see Templars treated the same way as Mages are, now that the templars have left the Chantry they should be classed as a criminal organisation who also can use magic, and guards and civilians should treat them the same as they would treat a mage.

I would like to find out what there motivation for leaving the chantry was and what they believe will happen to the organisation at the end of the war win or loose.

[Dave of Canada]

ianvillan wrote...

In Dragon Age 3 I would like to see Templars treated the same way as Mages are, now that the templars have left the Chantry they should be classed as a criminal organisation who also can use magic, and guards and civilians should treat them the same as they would treat a mage.

Except Templar can't be possessed and therefore aren't as dangerous as mages.

I would like to find out what there motivation for leaving the chantry was

They left to hunt the mages after the Divine showed mage sympathy.

[berelinde]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

In Dragon Age 3 I would like to see Templars treated the same way as Mages are, now that the templars have left the Chantry they should be classed as a criminal organisation who also can use magic, and guards and civilians should treat them the same as they would treat a mage.

Except Templar can't be possessed and therefore aren't as dangerous as mages.

Templars *can* be possessed, quite easily, as we discovered with Wilmot. Worse, they do not seem to possess the innate ability to resist possession the way mages can, so in a sense, they are even more dangerous than mages.

[Maria Caliban]

Templars can be possessed if there are mages around to force demons in them.

Again, if you remove the mages, you remove the problem.

[ianvillan]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

In Dragon Age 3 I would like to see Templars treated the same way as Mages are, now that the templars have left the Chantry they should be classed as a criminal organisation who also can use magic, and guards and civilians should treat them the same as they would treat a mage.

Except Templar can't be possessed and therefore aren't as dangerous as mages.

I would like to find out what there motivation for leaving the chantry was

They left to hunt the mages after the Divine showed mage sympathy.

Iam not really on about possession but the templars are now a rogue organisation who can also use magic surely the chantry and other people in charge should be concerned about them.

So the templars left the Chantry so that they could hunt down every mage against the Divines orders, so now it seems the Templars are just another assassin organisation who are going out of there way to kill mages.

After they have killed all the mages do they just expect to be welcomed back into the chantry again with no punishment, and if they do what is there role to be with no more mages to guard.

[The Elder King]

ianvillan wrote...



Iam not really on about possession but the templars are now a rogue organisation who can also use magic surely the chantry and other people in charge should be concerned about them.

So the templars left the Chantry so that they could hunt down every mage against the Divines orders, so now it seems the Templars are just another assassin organisation who are going out of there way to kill mages.

After they have killed all the mages do they just expect to be welcomed back into the chantry again with no punishment, and if they do what is there role to be with no more mages to guard.

While the Templars's main role was to control mages, their have ohe roles to hunt mages.Mages will be born, even if they killed all the mages in the rebellion. Plus, they has the role to protect the Chantry. They were, the Chantry's army.
About the fact that they use magic, in DAO the Templar's head in Lothering said that their powers work only on mages. So I think that the can't use their "magic" against others (not to mention that if Templar's power wokr on normal people too, the Chantry should've been concerned even before they left the Chantty).

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...



Iam not really on about possession but the templars are now a rogue organisation who can also use magic surely the chantry and other people in charge should be concerned about them.

So the templars left the Chantry so that they could hunt down every mage against the Divines orders, so now it seems the Templars are just another assassin organisation who are going out of there way to kill mages.

After they have killed all the mages do they just expect to be welcomed back into the chantry again with no punishment, and if they do what is there role to be with no more mages to guard.

While the Templars's main role was to control mages, their have ohe roles to hunt mages.Mages will be born, even if they killed all the mages in the rebellion. Plus, they has the role to protect the Chantry. They were, the Chantry's army.
About the fact that they use magic, in DAO the Templar's head in Lothering said that their powers work only on mages. So I think that the can't use their "magic" against others (not to mention that if Templar's power wokr on normal people too, the Chantry should've been concerned even before they left the Chantty).

I never knew that their powers only work on mages but It could also be disinformation the templars say so they wont be feared by the general population.

The templars have shown they dont care about the chantry or they wouldn't of left their organisation. how can the chantry trust the templars to not leave again if they dont agree with a decision or even how can they trust them not to try to seize power form the divine herself.

But you now have a lyrium addicted rogue templars who no longer answer to the chantry, the templars have shown they treat people who help mages the same as they treat mages so what happens if Arl Tegan asks his chantry to help some mages will the templars invade the chantry and how will the Arl react to that. Hoe about if their is a Lyrium supply in a village what the Templars need will they obey the ruler of the village or will they take what they need.

[berelinde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Templars can be possessed if there are mages around to force demons in them.

Again, if you remove the mages, you remove the problem.

Not true! And this predates DA2's examples with Tahrone.

During the Broken Circle quest of DA:O, we encounter numerous possessed templars. It is possible, though hardly probable, that blood mages may have facilitated some of the possessions, but there is at least one, the templar who believes the desire demon is his wife, who was possessed all by his onesies.

It's likely that demonic possession occurs of non-mages occurs when the demon is physically present outside the Fade. Many of the summonings we see do involve mages, but this is probably a convenience thing rather than an absolute requirement. We have seen plenty of examples in both games where demons make physical appearances without mages present, wherever the veil is thin or torn. Justice was not summoned by a mage. He was dragged from the Fade into the physical world because of a tear in the veil. Spirits and demons are different in their attitudes about possession, but they seem to share limitations and abilities.

As another example of demonic possession without mage assistance, consider the Bone Pit in Act 2. The second quest to the site involves clearing the undead. Undead are demon-possessed corpses, so the demons must have been getting through somehow, but there was no mage present at all, just a bunch of miners. The Veil was thinned there by the slaughter of miners by non-mage mine overseers.

TL; DR: Mages make it easier for demons to possess non-mages, but their assistance is not required. Genocide is not a viable solution.

[the_one_54321]

Templars can't use magic.

Alistair specifically explains that Templar abilities only function against magic. To anyone but a mage, a Templar is just a normal warrior.

Once again, the mage is the source of the problem.

[the_one_54321]

berelinde wrote...
During the Broken Circle quest of DA:O, we encounter numerous possessed templars. It is possible, though hardly probable, that blood mages may have facilitated some of the possessions, but there is at least one, the templar who believes the desire demon is his wife, who was possessed all by his onesies.

Your comment on probability is unsupportable. Ulric has been forcing possessions for a while when you show up.

Those that were possessed without mage intervention experienced this because the mages summoned the demons. Which is mage intervention.

The only other way to for demons to exit the fade is in places where the veil is torn. Which are hardly random occurrences. Places like the Bracilian Forest, where this has happened, are well known and have a history of violence and spiritual activity.

[berelinde]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Templars can't use magic.

Alistair specifically explains that Templar abilities only function against magic. To anyone but a mage, a Templar is just a normal warrior.

Once again, the mage is the source of the problem.

Also not true. The templar ability Holy Smite (in BOTH games) does spirit damage against *all* opponents. Its DA2 upgrade, Righteous Smite, enhances damage against magic wielders, but in its base form and in its other upgrade, damage applies to all. Righteous Strike, too, relies on the templar's lyrium enhancement to function, not the presence of a magical opponent.

I am very fond of Alistair. He is probably my favorite character in the series. But it is likely that his knowledge of templar abilities is not as comprehensive as it would have been if he had completed his training.

[berelinde]

the_one_54321 wrote...

berelinde wrote...
During the Broken Circle quest of DA:O, we encounter numerous possessed templars. It is possible, though hardly probable, that blood mages may have facilitated some of the possessions, but there is at least one, the templar who believes the desire demon is his wife, who was possessed all by his onesies.

Your comment on probability is unsupportable. Ulric has been forcing possessions for a while when you show up.

Those that were possessed without mage intervention experienced this because the mages summoned the demons. Which is mage intervention.

The only other way to for demons to exit the fade is in places where the veil is torn. Which are hardly random occurrences. Places like the Bracilian Forest, where this has happened, are well known and have a history of violence and spiritual activity.

The third paragraph of your post disproves the second. The Veil's integrity is not influenced solely by blood magic. As you say, there are places like the Brecillian Forest, the Black Marsh, the Bone Pit, and Kirkwall where the Veil is thin. More violence will not repair it.

[the_one_54321]

I didn't say that blood magic was the only way. I said that during the Broken Cirlce those Templars were exposed to demons only because the mages summoned them.

And the point of bringing up the Bracillian Forest as an example is because places like that do not generate random abominations and devastate towns. They are places that people know about, because of their storied history.

[berelinde]

the_one_54321 wrote...

And the point of bringing up the Bracillian Forest as an example is because places like that do not generate random abominations and devastate towns. They are places that people know about, because of their storied history.

On the contrary, they do. Apart from the Revenants and various forms of skeletons, camping at the abandoned camp site in the West Brecillian Forest pits one of your party solo against several powerful demons. Again, no mage summons them. They are just there because the Veil is thin.