334 réponses à ce sujet

[Avissel]

Yorumu wrote...

One reason why the questionnaire wouldn't be so accurate is because not all people have an internet. So determining the "true" reaction with that would be as debatable by everyone as any other poll.

Plus if it was poll you probably be spoiling the ending somewhat for people that hadn't seen it.

[ThePanzer99]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

And that's the heart of the problem with ME3. A chunk of the customers/fan base thoroughly rejected biowares vision for the end of the story. It puts the company at a crossroads. Double down on the waterslide approach to storytelling, or let the mob help shape the story.

I'd like to see the latter versus the former in the future.

[hosen17]

Because 75 perfect scores!

[Ownedbacon]

Yorumu wrote...

One reason why the questionnaire wouldn't be so accurate is because not all people have an internet. So determining the "true" reaction with that would be as debatable by everyone as any other poll.

True but any additions to the game would require internet connection anyway.

[Icesong]

Sounds like a gimmicky thing to do to me. Would ideally be nice though to see developers and PR people no longer able to obfuscate and marginalize about minorities and majorities.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Ownedbacon wrote...

Just got me wondering, why BioWare didn't have an in-game survey using our EA accounts or one through Xbox Live, Playstation Network, and/or Origin to determine the fan reaction to the ending?

Did you mean after release?

Aside from Mr. Woo's comment (which is definitely a correct answer), that would also require technical work and produce results of limited value.

Sure, if you could send something through Origin, people could type up comments about what they like and don't like. But on Playstation or XBox, nobody is really going to sit there and type up stuff with that fake keyboard. So you'd be limited to asking some kind of multiple choice question. I don't think a set of useful information could be gleaned from a series of multiple choice questions, unless you already knew what the "problems" were. That word is in quotations because not everything people don't like about the ending is really a problem, and not everyone who dislikes the ending does so for the same reasons.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 12 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[Isichar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

[Silpheed58]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

But I am always right  

Even if a focus group was used, the morals and opinions of players are so varied, theres always going to be some one unhappy and complaining.

[julio77777]

I kinda agree with Stanley on this one, no matter what anyone thinks about the endings, in the end it's the developper decision wether they want to change it or not.

They listened and took action regarding the feedback they got, end of story.
If it's not to some's liking i'm sure they feel sorry about that but they can't please everyone...

[FatalX7.0]

ThePanzer99 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

And that's the heart of the problem with ME3. A chunk of the customers/fan base thoroughly rejected biowares vision for the end of the story. It puts the company at a crossroads. Double down on the waterslide approach to storytelling, or let the mob help shape the story.

I'd like to see the latter versus the former in the future.

People rejected this exact ending two years ago.

The thread is still there on the Mass Effect 2 forums.

[Messi Kossmann]

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

[dezpinato]

count_4 wrote...

Because they would have to accept the results as truth.

You have to own a game to post in here so wouldn't that count the same?

[PillarBiter]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

I mean no bashing, stanley, and agree and understand your point of view. But asking for feedback, your PR guys should have known that a lot of people would interpret it in such a way. And they should have foreseen it and made you pose your questions appropriately.
Also in that regard, I do believe the OP has a point. How many people or fans or percentage of customers would it take to actually make the developer think about it's work: Hey, maybe I was wrong. It happens in every other corporate bussiness on a day to day basis. If you're wrong and evidence of that is presented, responsability should be taken and the problem has to be handled by someone else who makes it better.
And in that respect, I think it is actually a very good idea for you guys to put out a poll (you don't even have to make the results public, since it is for you guys yourselves).

Even if it is just to get rid of the 'vocal minority' nametag. Because that makes me feel dirty.

[Zeppex]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know I hadn't really thought of it in that sense.  You can try to appease everyone, but you will always have some that are left upset.

[crappyjazzy]

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

I would note that "some" fans have a "perceived" legit problem.  These fans have also had media support.  I don't think you're reading thoroughly if you think all bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" but I assumed your using hyperbole here to make a point.

Bioware has done more to address the "concerns" then they should in my opinion. 

They are currently working on free DLC to appease some of you, and from what I'm reading, many are already upset about that before it's even released.

They are tweeting, providing feedback threads here, cracked a couple of jokes at their own expense, and again PROVIDING FURTHER FREE CONTENT!!! 

But, they don't care, because they don't answer questions about the ending?  Seriously?

[Ownedbacon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

All I was saying that it potentially would have given a focused result rather than reading through pages of constructive feedback among personal rants in feedback thread. What you did with the data is entirely up to you. I'm just saying it could have been a good way to go about it and a way to reach those who maybe weren't as actively involved in the forums.

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 12 avril 2012 - 05:02 .

[Marta Rio II]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

Uh, aren't some of the design choices in the ME series directly based on player feedback and game statistics culled from various online sources (e.g. Xbox live)?  I mean, the devs have admitted as much regarding fan feedback, and you can see where stats seem to have had an impact on the game design (e.g. the amount of auto-dialogue in ME3 + the addition of "action mode" seems to reflect Xbox live stats that showed that a substantial proportion of the player-base skips dialogue).

Just having a survey doesn't mean that you need to pay attention to the results, especially if you don't publicize said results.  I would think it would be an easier method of figuring out, in an objective way, what the players would like to see from DLC, future games, etc.  Right now it seems like the feedback is driven mainly by those who can yell the loudest, for the longest...

[FatalX7.0]

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Because we paid money and did not receive what was promised.

We did not receive the Mass Effect game Bioware said it would be. The ending is a disappointment, plotholes, goes against your character and everything that Mass Effect has been about.

Putting sprinkles on crap doesn't make it better.


I'm not expecting the Extended Cut to be anything amazing. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I won't be, but at least I won't be too upset because I didn't expect it to be great in the first place.

People want choice.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 12 avril 2012 - 05:04 .

[Isichar]

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Wow your so eager to assume you know what i want. Never said anything in regards to the extended cut or the ending specifically. Who said i even disagreed with the extended cut?

[tetsutsuru]

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

[Messi Kossmann]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Because we paid money and did not receive what was promised.

We did not receive the Mass Effect game Bioware said it would be. The ending is a disappointment, plotholes, goes against your character and everything that Mass Effect has been about.

Putting sprinkles on crap doesn't make it better.


I'm not expecting the Extended Cut to be anything amazing. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I won't be, but at least I won't be too upset because I didn't expect it to be great in the first place.

So wait the launch of the DLC!But do not expect Bioware do everything the fans want!
They have a plan for Mass Effect, and we should respect that!

[Isichar]

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

[tetsutsuru]

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference here is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded, and/or retconned.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 12 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[FatalX7.0]

Messi Kossmann wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Because we paid money and did not receive what was promised.

We did not receive the Mass Effect game Bioware said it would be. The ending is a disappointment, plotholes, goes against your character and everything that Mass Effect has been about.

Putting sprinkles on crap doesn't make it better.


I'm not expecting the Extended Cut to be anything amazing. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I won't be, but at least I won't be too upset because I didn't expect it to be great in the first place.

So wait the launch of the DLC!But do not expect Bioware do everything the fans want!
They have a plan for Mass Effect, and we should respect that!

If I'm disappointed in a product that I spent time and money on for 5 years, I'm not going to sit and take it.

[Shaun72]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

Complaining about complainers is unproductive, Stanley.

Seriously, though......I understand where you are coming from because there are obviously some people here that are a bit more fanatical than others, however, is it really necessary to lump everyone together based on what you have seen from 'some' people in the past?

 Wouldn't it be healthier (especially coming from a offcial BW employee) to base your responses on the topic and tone that is in the current thread you are responding to? Clearly, the OP was talking about a post-game feedback device based on player opinion. He didn't say anything about giving anyone the option to reshape actual development of the game. He said 'survey', not 'open dialogue to bash employees in public', or even 'option to change game'.  

I don't think we needed the survey in-game, because that is what the internet is for, after all. I just think your posts have started to come across as very defensive lately and I don't believe you should treat everyone in every topic with the same attitude based on behavior that you have witnessed in other threads. There is plenty of healthy discussion going on in this forum, yet you only seem to want to talk about the people that are engaging in non-productive discussion. I am not sure how any of those peoples' past behavior has anything to do with the topic at hand, especially considering the OP did not exhibit any of the behaviors you are complaining about.

TLDR: Perhaps you could give people the benefit of the doubt before auto-assuiming they are amongst the 'some' people that you have made clear, obviously bother you so much.