334 réponses à ce sujet

[FatalX7.0]

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Sherlock Holmes was a book and it was changed, edited, expanded and retconned.

[Messi Kossmann]

Isichar wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Wow your so eager to assume you know what i want. Never said anything in regards to the extended cut or the ending specifically. Who said i even disagreed with the extended cut?

" And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns. "
I interpreted that phrase wrong. Sorry ...

[DreamTension]

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Wow...we're going back to this debate?  Well, a game that the developer largely claims is built around your decisions and the audience's feedback maybe should actually use that feedback and use those decisions in the game.

[dezpinato]

Ownedbacon wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

All I was saying that it potentially would have given a focused result rather than reading through pages of constructive feedback among personal rants in feedback thread. What you did with the data is entirely up to you. I'm just saying it could have been a good way to go about it and a way to reach those who maybe weren't as actively involved in the forums.

I dont want to hear about the new ending from bioware, other than that they are working on a new one.  Not this expanding on the old on that is universally hated by fans

[Icesong]

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

Yeah I think writers take what the reader would and wouldn't want into consideration. It actually is one of the foundations of storytelling...

[Isichar]

Shaun72 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

Complaining about complainers is unproductive, Stanley.

Seriously, though......I understand where you are coming from because there are obviously some people here that are a bit more fanatical than others, however, is it really necessary to lump everyone together based on what you have seen from 'some' people in the past?

 Wouldn't it be healthier (especially coming from a offcial BW employee) to base your responses on the topic and tone that is in the current thread you are responding to? Clearly, the OP was talking about a post-game feedback device based on player opinion. He didn't say anything about giving anyone the option to reshape actual development of the game. He said 'survey', not 'open dialogue to bash employees in public', or even 'option to change game'.  

I don't think we needed the survey in-game, because that is what the internet is for, after all. I just think your posts have started to come across as very defensive lately and I don't believe you should treat everyone in every topic with the same attitude based on behavior that you have witnessed in other threads. There is plenty of healthy discussion going on in this forum, yet you only seem to want to talk about the people that are engaging in non-productive discussion. I am not sure how any of those peoples' past behavior has anything to do with the topic at hand, especially considering the OP did not exhibit any of the behaviors you are complaining about.

TLDR: Perhaps you could give people the benefit of the doubt before auto-assuiming they are amongst the 'some' people that you have made clear, obviously bother you so much.

ty! Its nice to see someone who understands.

[Creepter]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

So is it better to not have any communication whatsoever with your fanbase about this whole mess?

[Dalis918]

I think that a very ugly bag of worms may have been opened there. Well Uglier.

[tetsutsuru]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Sherlock Holmes was a book and it was changed, edited, expanded and retconned.

I'm personally not familiar with Sherlock Holmes books, but it's good to know that that can be done with published written media as well.

[PsyrenY]

ThePanzer99 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

And that's the heart of the problem with ME3. A chunk of the customers/fan base thoroughly rejected biowares vision for the end of the story. It puts the company at a crossroads. Double down on the waterslide approach to storytelling, or let the mob help shape the story.

I'd like to see the latter versus the former in the future.

Speak for yourself. A lot of us only disliked the execution of the endings, not the concept. There was no "thorough rejection of vision."

[crappyjazzy]

Creepter wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

So is it better to not have any communication whatsoever with your fanbase about this whole mess?

This right here is literally why Bioware cannot please everyone.

[Messi Kossmann]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Because we paid money and did not receive what was promised.

We did not receive the Mass Effect game Bioware said it would be. The ending is a disappointment, plotholes, goes against your character and everything that Mass Effect has been about.

Putting sprinkles on crap doesn't make it better.


I'm not expecting the Extended Cut to be anything amazing. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I won't be, but at least I won't be too upset because I didn't expect it to be great in the first place.

So wait the launch of the DLC!But do not expect Bioware do everything the fans want!
They have a plan for Mass Effect, and we should respect that!

If I'm disappointed in a product that I spent time and money on for 5 years, I'm not going to sit and take it.

We all enjoyed these five years.But we're playing this time out because of poorly constructed five minutes!Not worth it!
Note: I also think Bioware should better explain the end! But tantrums does not help!

[Isichar]

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference here is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded, and/or retconned.

So we can call it "art" and that makes it the same as a painting or a movie or book? Theres very important key reasons why they are not the same. Its not just a story, its an interactive story that is created by a team. We are not talking about 1 person who made a story with a group helping him mass produce it, we are talking about a team of people who have worked on it since the start. This is not a story that solely belongs to one person. Ontop of that can you find another story that people have invested so much time and money into? And as you said its a story that can not only be edited but one that will continue to be worked on regardless after it is done.

I stand by what i said. Just because the two are a story does not make them the same, similar but theres differences that have no reason to be ignored.

Modifié par Isichar, 12 avril 2012 - 05:20 .

[Ownedbacon]

tetsutsuru wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Sherlock Holmes was a book and it was changed, edited, expanded and retconned.

I'm personally not familiar with Sherlock Holmes books, but it's good to know that that can be done with published written media as well.

I think Michael Crichton resurrected the character Ian Malcolm in the Lost World novel after killing him off in Jurassic Park.

Edit: I think the fans begged him to do a sequel book and since the character was popular in the movie he brought him back.

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 12 avril 2012 - 05:20 .

[FatalX7.0]

tetsutsuru wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Sherlock Holmes was a book and it was changed, edited, expanded and retconned.

I'm personally not familiar with Sherlock Holmes books, but it's good to know that that can be done with published written media as well.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, author of the Sherlock Holmes stories in the late 1800's.

Holmes was killed off in what was meant to be his last book so that he could focus on historical books. But, due to fan outcry, he later changed it, "brought him back to life", made it so he didn't actually die. His mother hated it too.

[Isichar]

Messi Kossmann wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Because we paid money and did not receive what was promised.

We did not receive the Mass Effect game Bioware said it would be. The ending is a disappointment, plotholes, goes against your character and everything that Mass Effect has been about.

Putting sprinkles on crap doesn't make it better.


I'm not expecting the Extended Cut to be anything amazing. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I won't be, but at least I won't be too upset because I didn't expect it to be great in the first place.

So wait the launch of the DLC!But do not expect Bioware do everything the fans want!
They have a plan for Mass Effect, and we should respect that!

If I'm disappointed in a product that I spent time and money on for 5 years, I'm not going to sit and take it.

We all enjoyed these five years.But we're playing this time out because of poorly constructed five minutes!Not worth it!
Note: I also think Bioware should better explain the end! But tantrums does not help!

Im sorry but thats completely up to the individual if its worth it. You dont think so, so anyone who feels differently is just throwing a tantrum? I can say "blindly accepting whatever bioware comes out with does not help" too.

[Johanna]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

You're very sarcastic.  I find it off-putting.

[ImmovableMover]

Why? **** you, thats why.

Seriously though, If they are genuinely wanting to listen to feedback (*snicker*) then the larger the sample size they can gain the more accurate their "Clarification" would be to our wants/needs - Feedback 101.

Using the platforms themselves (PC, 360, PS3) as the "Net" would help immensely in evaluating the validity of the feedback - It would be difficult to create sock accounts to duplicate feedback and achievements would show whether the respondent had actually completed the game or not.

And it has been demonstrated that it's fairly simple to craft a survey which is short and simple that allows people to accurately express their opinions (I've seen a number made and posted here)

The only reason I can think of why they wouldn't want a large amount of feedback they can validate from the people who it affects most is that they don't really want your feedback, which brings me back to my opening statement quite nicely.

[Icesong]

tetsutsuru wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Sherlock Holmes was a book and it was changed, edited, expanded and retconned.

I'm personally not familiar with Sherlock Holmes books, but it's good to know that that can be done with published written media as well.

Where do you think all these terms come from?

[FatalX7.0]

Messi Kossmann wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

You know your right, but then you should also look at it from our POV, fans have a legit problem, we are called down from the media, bioware supporters shove out the phrase "artistic integrity" to describe everything. And instead of heaving people capable of talking about the endings from bioware we get people with bioware titles that cant officially answer questions or concerns.
Its incredibly frustrating and its just as easy for a fan to claim bioware does not care as it is for them to see our complaining as anything more then whining.

Dude, Bioware will release Extended Cut to answer our doubts.But you guys want it to throw away all the work that Bioware had, just because you guys did not like!

Because we paid money and did not receive what was promised.

We did not receive the Mass Effect game Bioware said it would be. The ending is a disappointment, plotholes, goes against your character and everything that Mass Effect has been about.

Putting sprinkles on crap doesn't make it better.


I'm not expecting the Extended Cut to be anything amazing. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I won't be, but at least I won't be too upset because I didn't expect it to be great in the first place.

So wait the launch of the DLC!But do not expect Bioware do everything the fans want!
They have a plan for Mass Effect, and we should respect that!

If I'm disappointed in a product that I spent time and money on for 5 years, I'm not going to sit and take it.

We all enjoyed these five years.But we're playing this time out because of poorly constructed five minutes!Not worth it!
Note: I also think Bioware should better explain the end! But tantrums does not help!

If you need to explain your ending, it failed.

The end of a 5 year trilogy, the end of a character, should not be a speculatory piece of crap. That's a cheap-ass thing to do.

[tetsutsuru]

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Wow...we're going back to this debate?  Well, a game that the developer largely claims is built around your decisions and the audience's feedback maybe should actually use that feedback and use those decisions in the game.

You do realize that every decision in the game(s) are pre-written versions of one, overall story, right?  All those decisions are designed to try to accomodate different play styles and attitudes which grant a sense of personalization, as far as gaming experience, but are all essentially "false decisions".

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 12 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

And that is how it should be, your IP, your franchise and your creation. Whats ironic is the same people pushing for voting and majority/minority nonsense about getting their changes they want are same people who would hate it if games all went the way of metagaming where every decision was based on what the majority want because the majority want FPS and not RPGs.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 avril 2012 - 05:28 .

[Simotech]

Because it's....

...art  :innocent:

[DreamTension]

tetsutsuru wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Wow...we're going back to this debate?  Well, a game that the developer largely claims is built around your decisions and the audience's feedback maybe should actually use that feedback and use those decisions in the game.

You do realize that every decision in the game(s) are pre-written versions of one, overall story, right?  All those decisions are designed to try to accomodate different play styles and attitudes which grant a sense of personalization, as far as gaming experience, but are all essentially "false decisions".

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

[Exeider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

I do agree with that statement, I understand the developers are under no obligation to take any advice.

However this situation is very atypical, first, the devs know or SHOULD know, that the ending is disliked, nay even hated by an overwhelming majority. The developer ask for feed back, and those people give that feedback.

I just think it's foolish to ask for feed back, and then ignore that feedback anyway.  It makes one ask the question, Why did you ask for the feed back in the first place?

I don't think ignoring feed back is wise, but hey I'm just a fellow forum goer, but since Bioware wants the good will of the people back, you would think they would take the advice.

I just don't know anymore, with so many people having differing opinions about the end, what it should be, what it shouldn't be. and the fact that bioware seems to be doing what ever the hell they want anyway, while slinging PR words back and forth.

To be honest, I don't know if the damage could be fixed even if miracle of miracles a new ending DID come out. There would still be the stink of all the baiting, trolling, flat out lying, the condescention, etc.

I mean nothing was more insulting then the condescention at PAX. But there it is, it happened.

All I can really do now is just sit and wait and just watch what happens now.

-Æ