334 réponses à ce sujet

[coolbeans]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Holmes was killed off in what was meant to be his last book so that he could focus on historical books. But, due to fan outcry, he later changed it, "brought him back to life", made it so he didn't actually die. His mother hated it too.

Pfff A C Doyle might have caved to fan pressure, but theres no way Bioware would ever change one of their storys due to inconsistancies and plot holes......


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Deception


.................Wait a second

[Haargel]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

Though I do not like the endings, it's just the way it works.
The developers create the game, not us...

When I first saw the endings, I had to search if others opposed it, and came on this board.

what I found in the beginning was even more disgusting. Players calling the developers all sorts of names and even asked to fire the employees. Now this will never happen, let's say they would fire everyone you ask to because you don't like the endig.... would it be worth it ? most employees have families and housing with mortgages, you cannot just ask to fire them because you don't like the endings, it would destroy LIVES.

Give costructive feedback and they will see what they can do, it's just the way it works.

You can flame me all you want, that's how I see things.

[M0keys]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

However, you have been repeatedly stating that you're taking feedback from the fans. Having an in-game system would be a much easier way to receive them all at once and know what the general populace wants. You could probably even do it in poll form if you so wished.

Not saying fans should utterly dictate how you do things. Obviously we still have to trust in you guys to know what's right. That's how Kickstarter works, too. People donate, but they generally trust in the craftsmanship of the people working on the project (and the designers ask for fan opinion to get an overall view of things.)

But if it's like your alcoholic pal who will never get clean and
keeps messing up, eventually you start distancing yourself until you
barely talk anymore. That's how relationships work.

So if this is all about mending the feelings between developers and customers, and making sure we keep coming back because you make things we care about playing, it would be helpful to know what people want to see so you don't drive us away to your competition. We love Bioware and we don't want to see it fail. 

Modifié par M0keys, 12 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[soulprovider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

my friend this video explains the fan bases reaction quite well, in fact so well that this guy should be our voice to you the developer so please listen and pass along, He has four very educational videos out so far and would highly recommend listening to what he has to say expecially about how bioware has handled the whole situation.

 

[Dragoonlordz]

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Wow...we're going back to this debate?  Well, a game that the developer largely claims is built around your decisions and the audience's feedback maybe should actually use that feedback and use those decisions in the game.

You do realize that every decision in the game(s) are pre-written versions of one, overall story, right?  All those decisions are designed to try to accomodate different play styles and attitudes which grant a sense of personalization, as far as gaming experience, but are all essentially "false decisions".

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

They listened to the feedback, many of the ignorant posts and threads popping up are just because they did not choose that persons or groups feedback. They chose the feedback which agreed with which was providing further clarification and elucidation through cinemtatics and such in the new DLC (they created the product, it is their game not yours and it's their choice not yours what they do). Yes many asked for that just as many also asked for rewrite and some for keeping what was there. They listened, they chose the 'what was already there' group and combined it with the 'clarification and making sense of whats there' group over the 'rewrite' group. End of story and they did listen, some people are simply throwing a hissy fit because it was not their feedback being chosen compared to other peoples feedback.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[Xandurpein]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

I agree that doing a poll before writing a games ending is a really bad way of writing. I'm more surprised Bioware didn't QA the ending to see how a group of testers reacted emotionally to the ending and took that into account. There's difference between committee writing and proper QA.

[FatalX7.0]

coolbeans wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Holmes was killed off in what was meant to be his last book so that he could focus on historical books. But, due to fan outcry, he later changed it, "brought him back to life", made it so he didn't actually die. His mother hated it too.

Pfff A C Doyle might have caved to fan pressure, but theres no way Bioware would ever change one of their storys due to inconsistancies and plot holes......


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Deception


.................Wait a second

Oh geez.

I can't believe i forgot about Deception. The rage over that was big.

[Sesshaku]

Jostle wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

Is anyone else thankful for kickstarter?

Yup, Tim Schafer's project and Wasteland 2 FTW.

[Isichar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Wow...we're going back to this debate?  Well, a game that the developer largely claims is built around your decisions and the audience's feedback maybe should actually use that feedback and use those decisions in the game.

You do realize that every decision in the game(s) are pre-written versions of one, overall story, right?  All those decisions are designed to try to accomodate different play styles and attitudes which grant a sense of personalization, as far as gaming experience, but are all essentially "false decisions".

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

They listened to the feedback, many of the ignorant posts and threads popping up are just because they did not choose that persons or groups feedback. They chose the feedback which agreed with which was providing further clarification and elucidation through cinemtatics and such in the new DLC (they created the product, it is their game not yours and it's their choice not yours what they do). Yes many asked for that just as many also asked for rewrits and some for keeping what was there. They listened, they chose the what was already there group and combined it with the clarification and making sense of whats there group over the rewrite group. End of story and they did listen, some people are simply throwing a hissy fit because it was not their feedback being chosen compared to other peoples feedback.

Oh thank you bioware! Thank you so much for responding to us!

Sorry but no, got a right to my opinion and im sorry it just happens to be against what they want. Does that make me whiney or childish? IDC

[coolbeans]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

coolbeans wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Holmes was killed off in what was meant to be his last book so that he could focus on historical books. But, due to fan outcry, he later changed it, "brought him back to life", made it so he didn't actually die. His mother hated it too.

Pfff A C Doyle might have caved to fan pressure, but theres no way Bioware would ever change one of their storys due to inconsistancies and plot holes......


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Deception


.................Wait a second

Oh geez.

I can't believe i forgot about Deception. The rage over that was big.

I wasnt on the forums at the time, were they just as quick with the "Artistic Integrity defence" that time around?

[coolbeans]

Sesshaku wrote...

Jostle wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

Is anyone else thankful for kickstarter?

Yup, Tim Schafer's project and Wasteland 2 FTW.

Nope its shadowrun all the way for me!

[Transgirlgamer]

Ownedbacon wrote...

Just got me wondering, why BioWare didn't have an in-game survey using our EA accounts or one through Xbox Live, Playstation Network, and/or Origin to determine the fan reaction to the ending?

Because to even possibly get everyone's reaction, it would have to have been included in the game at release.  Because some people have only played through once and have said they'll never play it again.

As far as I know, no game has ever done that before.

EDIT.  Even if they did do this, not everyone will answer a survey so they wouldn't get 100% accurate numbers.  Also, the straight away reaction doesn't allow for people to think about what has happened in the game, in the previous games and the endings.  I know my first reaction on finishing was something along the lines of.  'Huh'  Since then, I've made sense of some of it in my mind.  I've changed my opinions of hings when I've gone back and played the other two games, read two of the books and heard other payers opinions.  I'll probably continue to do so.  The initial reaction, is not the one that will stick with most gamers.

Modifié par Transgirlgamer, 12 avril 2012 - 05:44 .

[FatalX7.0]

coolbeans wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

coolbeans wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Holmes was killed off in what was meant to be his last book so that he could focus on historical books. But, due to fan outcry, he later changed it, "brought him back to life", made it so he didn't actually die. His mother hated it too.

Pfff A C Doyle might have caved to fan pressure, but theres no way Bioware would ever change one of their storys due to inconsistancies and plot holes......


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Deception


.................Wait a second

Oh geez.

I can't believe i forgot about Deception. The rage over that was big.

I wasnt on the forums at the time, were they just as quick with the "Artistic Integrity defence" that time around?

I don't think so.

I think they came out and apologized and said they would reprint.

[Dragoonlordz]

Isichar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

They listened to the feedback, many of the ignorant posts and threads popping up are just because they did not choose that persons or groups feedback. They chose the feedback which agreed with which was providing further clarification and elucidation through cinemtatics and such in the new DLC (they created the product, it is their game not yours and it's their choice not yours what they do). Yes many asked for that just as many also asked for rewrits and some for keeping what was there. They listened, they chose the what was already there group and combined it with the clarification and making sense of whats there group over the rewrite group. End of story and they did listen, some people are simply throwing a hissy fit because it was not their feedback being chosen compared to other peoples feedback.

Oh thank you bioware! Thank you so much for responding to us!

Sorry but no, got a right to my opinion and im sorry it just happens to be against what they want. Does that make me whiney or childish? IDC

Your reply is filled with the sentiment of "wah wah wah".

I told you they listened to feedback, they did. There was never consensus about what people wanted and the only thing linking all those who disliked the endings was the fact they disliked the endings not their solutions. Some wanted rewrite (your out of luck there, princess is in another castle), some wanted to keep as is and some wanted elucidation to make sense of whats there (they are getting that) plus some wanted happy ever after hills are alive with sound of music and blue babies.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[Hepatitis P]

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

[Dragoonlordz]

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 avril 2012 - 05:46 .

[Giubba]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

Ditto

[kidbd15]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

But when the feedback you do receive is overwhelmingly bad in regards to the ending, isn't that one of the things you should look more closely into, instead of hiding behind the "artistic integrity" BS? 

I mean, if you were to take any feedback into consideration, it would be about how BAD the ending was.  Polls indicate that.  Most of the members who care enough to tell you on these boards tell you that. Adding new cutscenes to a narratively bad ending won't make it much better, it'll still be bad.  That is the general concensus.

Selective hearing isn't really hearing, Mister Community Listener.

[coolbeans]

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

 Devs make false claims about game, players buy game, rage over false claims, get called entitled

The Dev/player relationship <_<

*Edit*
Forum fail, meant to quote stanley, not hepatitus

Modifié par coolbeans, 12 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[Kath]

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Woah dude. You wonder why people call Bioware fans entitled? They don't design games for us, we are not commissioning them. They create a product that we can choose to buy - that's it! 

Not saying that customer feedback isn't important, but don't act like the fans own Bioware. :/

Modifié par Katherine, 12 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[DreamTension]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I told you they listened to feedback, they did. There was never consensus about what people wanted and the only thing linking all those who disliked the endings was the fact they disliked the endings not their solutions. Some wanted rewrite (your out of luck there, princess is in another castle), some wanted to keep as is and some wanted elucidation to make sense of whats there (they are getting that) plus some wanted happy ever after hills are alive with sound of music and blue babies.

The complete vast majority of the people wanted the endings to have our choices matter.  That's it.
The happy ending or LI ending etc... is just personal preference to the ending, but the huge outcry is the lack of CHOICE and the lack of COHESION (basically the plotholes and contradictions).  Combine that with developer statements that basically told us the complete opposite of what we got, that's where we are now. 

I didn't think we should or need to write BioWare the ending. 

But that's not what the OP was talking about.  He/She stated why doesn't BioWare ask ALL the users directly (via the game) if they liked the endings, etc...

[tetsutsuru]

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

Myopic perspective.  A story is a story.  The difference is, this story is software, and can be edited, appended to, expanded and/or retconned.

Wow...we're going back to this debate?  Well, a game that the developer largely claims is built around your decisions and the audience's feedback maybe should actually use that feedback and use those decisions in the game.

You do realize that every decision in the game(s) are pre-written versions of one, overall story, right?  All those decisions are designed to try to accomodate different play styles and attitudes which grant a sense of personalization, as far as gaming experience, but are all essentially "false decisions".

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

No, you're on-track so far.  My apologies for the confusion of my last post.

Essentially, my perspective is that customer feedback really has very little impact, regardless of what's been said in press releases and such.  That's actually a good example of "be careful what you say".  Personally, I have zero qualms about people being called-out on things they said.  It's a safe assumption that we have no influence on the story's progression, but it's good to know about little things on "gameplay" like removing the planet-scanning-for-minerals mini-game as what was in ME2.  Personally, I didn't think it did anything but hamper the story and game's pacing.  Overall, we are in no position to "demand", or "expect" changes.  We can probably pettition for change, and that's mostly it.  At the end of the day, this is their story, and this is their product.  Its progression is solely at their discretion.  They can "listen" to feedback, but that does not instantly denote "compliance".

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 12 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[Dragoonlordz]

DreamTension wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I told you they listened to feedback, they did. There was never consensus about what people wanted and the only thing linking all those who disliked the endings was the fact they disliked the endings not their solutions. Some wanted rewrite (your out of luck there, princess is in another castle), some wanted to keep as is and some wanted elucidation to make sense of whats there (they are getting that) plus some wanted happy ever after hills are alive with sound of music and blue babies.

The complete vast majority of the people wanted the endings to have our choices matter.  That's it.
The happy ending or LI ending etc... is just personal preference to the ending, but the huge outcry is the lack of CHOICE and the lack of COHESION (basically the plotholes and contradictions).  Combine that with developer statements that basically told us the complete opposite of what we got, that's where we are now. 

I didn't think we should or need to write BioWare the ending. 

But that's not what the OP was talking about.  He/She stated why doesn't BioWare ask ALL the users directly (via the game) if they liked the endings, etc...

This is not a publicly elected body. It is not up to you what they do with their products. They created their product and hoped people would enjoy it, some did, some wanted to understand more why certain things happened, some wanted more than that and some wanted little blue babies. Bioware listened and chose a path they agreed with as a solution. You can either accept it or not but your not getting anything else. Given the disdain many have for metagaming prior to it's release, from femshep voting and multiplayer etc to then turn around and throw "use metagaming!" around aka listen to majority vs minoritys is ironic and hypocritical.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

ThePanzer99 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

And that's the heart of the problem with ME3. A chunk of the customers/fan base thoroughly rejected biowares vision for the end of the story. It puts the company at a crossroads. Double down on the waterslide approach to storytelling, or let the mob help shape the story.

I'd like to see the latter versus the former in the future.

Speak for yourself. A lot of us only disliked the execution of the endings, not the concept. There was no "thorough rejection of vision."

Then you aren't part of the chunk of players he's talking about.