334 réponses à ce sujet

[Giubba]

Creepter wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

So is it better to not have any communication whatsoever with your fanbase about this whole mess?

Back in the 90's and early 2000 it worked pretty well .

Blissful silence

Modifié par Giubba1985, 12 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[MorSterling]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

What you are missing is that they have lost credibility in lots of peoples thinking which WILL lower what they can sell.

What´s more is their PR-disaster is continuing to alienate people which will further reduce sales.

Then you have posts like yours on BSN which are selfrighteous without an ounce of understanding which further peoples disgust about how the company are handling this, way to go.

[Isichar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

They listened to the feedback, many of the ignorant posts and threads popping up are just because they did not choose that persons or groups feedback. They chose the feedback which agreed with which was providing further clarification and elucidation through cinemtatics and such in the new DLC (they created the product, it is their game not yours and it's their choice not yours what they do). Yes many asked for that just as many also asked for rewrits and some for keeping what was there. They listened, they chose the what was already there group and combined it with the clarification and making sense of whats there group over the rewrite group. End of story and they did listen, some people are simply throwing a hissy fit because it was not their feedback being chosen compared to other peoples feedback.

Oh thank you bioware! Thank you so much for responding to us!

Sorry but no, got a right to my opinion and im sorry it just happens to be against what they want. Does that make me whiney or childish? IDC

Your reply is filled with the sentiment of "wah wah wah".

I told you they listened to feedback, they did. There was never consensus about what people wanted and the only thing linking all those who disliked the endings was the fact they disliked the endings not their solutions. Some wanted rewrite (your out of luck there, princess is in another castle), some wanted to keep as is and some wanted elucidation to make sense of whats there (they are getting that) plus some wanted happy ever after hills are alive with sound of music and blue babies.

All i hear is a bioware drone that would accept whatever bioware came out with. You can keep calling us children, ill call you a drone if thats what you want. Your not making yourself look any better by ignoring why those people are upset and telling them they must accept what bioware comes out with.

Modifié par Isichar, 12 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

Why do you think the franchise got past ME1?

[ArchAngelLoki]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

So how is this "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." It is exactly the same thing your doing in the forums except working out of the games own client and getting EVERYONE who plays the game to comment on it would give you the most accurate and abundent source of information. It in no way MAKES you do anything. It would be like a doctor going to a 100 patients in a hospital and seeing 99 of them are sick and saying, Oh my god everyone in the world is sick. Instead of going outside and taking a census of who is sick in the world. (it being possible that everyone is sick or only the people in the hospital are sick) The fact is that bioware seems to almost purposely being making these decisions with a huge lack of information or understanding of their community. And instead of taking the help of the few who are offering it, your sticking your fingers in your ears and saying nah nah nah artistic integrity, nah nah nah keep yelling what you want at me, nah nah nah you cant make us do anything!

Modifié par ArchAngelLoki, 12 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[Dragoonlordz]

MorSterling wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

What you are missing is that they have lost credibility in lots of peoples thinking which WILL lower what they can sell.

What´s more is their PR-disaster is continuing to alienate people which will further reduce sales.

Then you have posts like yours on BSN which are selfrighteous without an ounce of understanding which further peoples disgust about how the company are handling this, way to go.

More and more people are turning their backs on you and more are getting hostile because it has gone on long enough. The threats, the hyperbole, the vitriol has run it's course and many are sick of it now. It is not just your community it is outs too and your dragging it through the mud because of your hurt feelings even after Bioware have stated exactly what they plan to do and made their solution free your still whining and many still using threats, hyperbole and vitriol in the threads and posts they create.

[Nezzer]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

And you also don't discuss your design choices with the rest of the team, like the QA or the coding teams? I think even inside the ME team most people would feel like there was something wrong with the ending. In my opinion it's wrong to openly discuss decisions with the fans, especially story decisions, but most decisions should be discussed openly within all sectors of the team to ensure this is the game the team wants. It seems to me that either decisions like the ending weren't discussed internally at all or that the opinions of the team were ignored (or that the team is evil like Chris Priestly and wants us to suffer )

[YonatanJ]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

I don't remember where exactly, but awhile ago, an offical bioware employee said that the story of Mass Effect was built along with the fans, therefore I'd say that some form of collaboration was created. I don't see why consulting with your active fanbase, be it through surveys or whatever form of communication is wrong and not a legit way to create games.
After we all, we are returning consumers and we pay for the products we get. We should have a say to some degree. (In my opinion, that is).

By the way, you keep forgetting that the entire concept of Mass Effect is that the player, his choices, his morals and what not are important to the story and eventually what forwards it. This is a point where playerchoice has been completely broken (AKA the concept of the game was broken). Therefore, the LEAST you can do is listening to what the fans have to say and respond to their questions, unlike now. Communication is key.

[Dragoonlordz]

Isichar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

They listened to the feedback, many of the ignorant posts and threads popping up are just because they did not choose that persons or groups feedback. They chose the feedback which agreed with which was providing further clarification and elucidation through cinemtatics and such in the new DLC (they created the product, it is their game not yours and it's their choice not yours what they do). Yes many asked for that just as many also asked for rewrits and some for keeping what was there. They listened, they chose the what was already there group and combined it with the clarification and making sense of whats there group over the rewrite group. End of story and they did listen, some people are simply throwing a hissy fit because it was not their feedback being chosen compared to other peoples feedback.

Oh thank you bioware! Thank you so much for responding to us!

Sorry but no, got a right to my opinion and im sorry it just happens to be against what they want. Does that make me whiney or childish? IDC

Your reply is filled with the sentiment of "wah wah wah".

I told you they listened to feedback, they did. There was never consensus about what people wanted and the only thing linking all those who disliked the endings was the fact they disliked the endings not their solutions. Some wanted rewrite (your out of luck there, princess is in another castle), some wanted to keep as is and some wanted elucidation to make sense of whats there (they are getting that) plus some wanted happy ever after hills are alive with sound of music and blue babies.

All i hear is a bioware drone that would accept whatever bioware came out with. You can keep calling us children, ill call you a drone if thats what you want. Your not making yourself look any better by ignoring why those people are upset and telling them they must accept what bioware comes out with.

Clearly because sticking your fingers in your ears singing the trololo song solves all your problems. They told you what they are going to do, sooner or later you need to pop that bubble you reside in and accept that is what they told you they are going to do. Simple as that.

[Transgirlgamer]

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

They do design games for themselves and make games for themselves and then try to sell them.  It's the same with any creative endeavour as any good writer will tell you.

And before anyone tries to tell me that games are different to books or films or TV show, I'll tell you why they're not.  Because they have a story to them which neccesarily gives you limits to how your character can progress.  Sure, they're looser than a book or a film or a TV show, but it's still there.  For example, Shepard can't decide to not bother saving the galaxy and live out whatever time she has left on a remote planet where no-one will ever find her.   Certain choices are denied to you because that's how the plot is advanced.

If they designed and made games for all of us, they would be so bad and so unplayable that no-one would buy it or enjoy it.  So they stick to what they enjoy.

As to your last couple of words, you most likely didn't need to buy it.  You chose to buy it.  No-one forced you to get this game, no-one forced you to play it.  You decided to do both of these things.  And you didn't like something about it.  Big deal.  

I really don't like being confrontational, I'm generally a voice for balance and compromise.  But, grow up and learn how the world really works.  Not everyone thinks like you do, not everyone enjoys what you do.  Most people learn that pretty early in their childhood.  You really do come off as a whiny self-important child in the post I quoted.  I imagine that wasn't your intention but that's the impression I got.

Perhaps if you offered constructive criticism rather than just ranting you would have come off differently.  Maybe if you had even offered anything to back up your opinions.

I'm sorry if this has offended you, or anyone else in any way.  I don't come to these forums to argue with people or to denigrate them at all, I come here to have discussions with fellow fans, and occasionally the developers, about things I enjoy.

I would finish by saying 'if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all.'  But I don't believe that.  I believe that there's nothing wrong with saying something bad, if it's said in a way to help people learn and better themselves.  That was my intention with this entire post.

P.S.  To anyone not affected by the issues here, I'm sorry for the length of this post and the slight rantyness to it.  I just felt it had to be said.

[Sesshaku]

kidbd15 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

But when the feedback you do receive is overwhelmingly bad in regards to the ending, isn't that one of the things you should look more closely into, instead of hiding behind the "artistic integrity" BS? 

I mean, if you were to take any feedback into consideration, it would be about how BAD the ending was.  Polls indicate that.  Most of the members who care enough to tell you on these boards tell you that. Adding new cutscenes to a narratively bad ending won't make it much better, it'll still be bad.  That is the general concensus.

Selective hearing isn't really hearing, Mister Community Listener.

This. It seems Bioware itself its interpreting our feedback bad.
We didn't told you to change Mordin's death. Nobody told rockstar to change RDR ending. Nobody told Bioware to change anything like this before. The feeback you're getting is not unproductive and unreasonable, its a clear statement that we didn't like ANYTHING you did on the last 10 minutes, we gave you some ideas, we gave you areas to work around it completly free from our opinions. Indoctrination theory for example, isn't an ending, it's just a "okay, this ending was false, now, shepard gets up...keep writing from that point". 

Also, there's another issue to be answered. Okay, let's accept the fact that our feedback doesn't really matter. In that case, you are completly free to end your game the way you like it.

BUT.


Why the hell you lead the first two games in other direction, one that clearly stated: "there isn't going to be ONE ending"?.
Why did you told OVER AND OVER AGAIN that we would have answers, closure, and that our decissions would matter and produce COMPLETLY DIFFERENT ENDINGS?.
Why did you though that an ending with so many flaws and plotholes, or at least, really bad "directed" was good?
Why did you change AN ENTIRE BOOK because of its flaws and plotholes and say sorry to your clients and then, when the most important part of the game gets way more bad reviews than the book you shield yourself in "artistic integrity"?.


You see, from our point of view this was nonsense.

A) The ending felt alien to the franchise. We just can't get how is it that so very talented people ending up selling those 15 minutes of ...of.....you know. 
We can't get how is it that Bioware isn't responding this issue with proper actions, and instead, seems to be creating more hate.

Why those tweets about keeping our saves?
The initial trolololo video about Indoctrination theory and april fools joke?
The big announcement at PAX that never come?
To insult their players by calling them entitled whiners and incapable of understanding art.



All this .....madness.....iss....is.....like something i never seen before on a game community. And its not as simple as "they are crying babies", i never saw something like this, you should think really well each step you do from now on, Dragon Age 2 and ME3 response to the players didn't do any good to the company we love. We desire the best for you, so please, whatever happens with ME3, DO NOT make such a mistake again. Pissing your clients like this can't be good in a long term business relationship.

[The Night Mammoth]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

MorSterling wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

What you are missing is that they have lost credibility in lots of peoples thinking which WILL lower what they can sell.

What´s more is their PR-disaster is continuing to alienate people which will further reduce sales.

Then you have posts like yours on BSN which are selfrighteous without an ounce of understanding which further peoples disgust about how the company are handling this, way to go.

More and more people are turning their backs on you and more are getting hostile because it has gone on long enough. The threats, the hyperbole, the vitriol has run it's course and many are sick of it now. It is not just your community it is outs too and your dragging it through the mud because of your hurt feelings even after Bioware have stated exactly what they plan to do and made their solution free your still whining and many still using threats, hyperbole and vitriol in the threads and posts they create.

Wow, isn't it great when people can just non-chalantly exaggerate a problem so they have a point? I don't see how any of your posts are any different to what you seem to despise and never stop going on about, like a ****ing brain damaged village crier who materializes whenever the opportunity to defend everything BioWare ever says or does decides to present itself, endlessly shouting the same message so everyone in the village and their dog knows all Retakers are spit spewing entitled morons.

Whine about the whiners by repeating "It's BioWare's game, their glorious vision is sacrosanct, don't touch it with your dirty legitimate problems!" seems a little strange to me. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[Isichar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

MorSterling wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

What you are missing is that they have lost credibility in lots of peoples thinking which WILL lower what they can sell.

What´s more is their PR-disaster is continuing to alienate people which will further reduce sales.

Then you have posts like yours on BSN which are selfrighteous without an ounce of understanding which further peoples disgust about how the company are handling this, way to go.

More and more people are turning their backs on you and more are getting hostile because it has gone on long enough. The threats, the hyperbole, the vitriol has run it's course and many are sick of it now. It is not just your community it is outs too and your dragging it through the mud because of your hurt feelings even after Bioware have stated exactly what they plan to do and made their solution free your still whining and many still using threats, hyperbole and vitriol in the threads and posts they create.

Heres a challange try and make a post that does not insinuate that people simply only complain about the ending because they are "children" because thats the only point your posts seem to be able to keep falling back on that and "Bioware responded to us... ACCEPT IT"

No

People have a right to their opinions. Youd probably be surprised that i agree people should give the ending a chance before they bash it (the extended DLC) what i cant stand is people who disregard why people are upset and hide behind ignorant excuses to why they do so "because your all whiney" your already eager to call me down when you dont know what i feel about the ending because I say theirs some merit to why all those fans are complaining. Bioware can improve on this if they actually listen to it. Saying "bioware can do whatever they want and you must accept it" is ultimately destructive and will not help bioware in the way you want it to.

[Dragoonlordz]

YonatanJ wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

I don't remember where exactly, but awhile ago, an offical bioware employee said that the story of Mass Effect was built along with the fans, therefore I'd say that some form of collaboration was created. I don't see why consulting with your active fanbase, be it through surveys or whatever form of communication is wrong and not a legit way to create games.
After we all, we are returning consumers and we pay for the products we get. We should have a say to some degree. (In my opinion, that is).

By the way, you keep forgetting that the entire concept of Mass Effect is that the player, his choices, his morals and what not are important to the story and eventually what forwards it. This is a point where playerchoice has been completely broken (AKA the concept of the game was broken). Therefore, the LEAST you can do is listening to what the fans have to say and respond to their questions, unlike now. Communication is key.

They don't have to give you any choices within their games, thats their choice and many developers give you none yet remain very successful. They create it the way they want, you chose to continue to buy it or not. If you do not believe me they will continue to be around and creating games because where you leave others will come forward. In fact one of the biggest whining and moaning elements on these forums is the phrase "appeal to wider audience and other fanbases". Moan and whine about how your not being catered to enough has been constant around here but the reality is they would make more money if did choose to appeal to other fanbases not reliant on this one.

[MorSterling]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

MorSterling wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

What you are missing is that they have lost credibility in lots of peoples thinking which WILL lower what they can sell.

What´s more is their PR-disaster is continuing to alienate people which will further reduce sales.

Then you have posts like yours on BSN which are selfrighteous without an ounce of understanding which further peoples disgust about how the company are handling this, way to go.

More and more people are turning their backs on you and more are getting hostile because it has gone on long enough. The threats, the hyperbole, the vitriol has run it's course and many are sick of it now. It is not just your community it is outs too and your dragging it through the mud because of your hurt feelings even after Bioware have stated exactly what they plan to do and made their solution free your still whining and many still using threats, hyperbole and vitriol in the threads and posts they create.

Actually the people doing that mostly are like you and i note that you don´t answer what wrote about at all and therefore agree that you reduce sales for BW.

[MillionthStar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

funny.... i remember filling out a long survey from bioware not long after ME1, asking for my feedback on Mass Effect and Bioware

[Dragoonlordz]

MorSterling wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

MorSterling wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hepatitis P wrote...

Bioware you design Games for US and without US you wouldnt even have a Job Stanley
If you want to make a Game for yourself do it and we dont need to buy it.

But teasing us with wrong Statements about the game and its mechanic and the 16 Endings which are in fact just 3 Colored Choices and 1 Ending with slightly different Cutscenes is bull****

Grow up. They will continue to be around even if you leave. Many people still want their products even after your threats and hissy fits end. You did not pay for the creation of ME, EA did with pool of resources from many different titles and products and many people will buy their products long after your gone.

What you are missing is that they have lost credibility in lots of peoples thinking which WILL lower what they can sell.

What´s more is their PR-disaster is continuing to alienate people which will further reduce sales.

Then you have posts like yours on BSN which are selfrighteous without an ounce of understanding which further peoples disgust about how the company are handling this, way to go.

More and more people are turning their backs on you and more are getting hostile because it has gone on long enough. The threats, the hyperbole, the vitriol has run it's course and many are sick of it now. It is not just your community it is outs too and your dragging it through the mud because of your hurt feelings even after Bioware have stated exactly what they plan to do and made their solution free your still whining and many still using threats, hyperbole and vitriol in the threads and posts they create.

Actually the people doing that mostly are like you and i note that you don´t answer what wrote about at all and therefore agree that you reduce sales for BW.

I answered it when replied to someone else. One right above your reply in fact.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 12 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[matthewmi]

I don't think designing by committee would produce a great game either and I love the ME series but the end is pretty weak compared to the rest of the game. I still love ME3 but I am surprised the end wasn't caught in some kind of peer review process as not being up to the same standards the lack of dialogue options at the end is what gets me, I read in an interview somewhere 95000 lines of dialogue in the 3 games and the ending scene consists of 14 with no real player questioning. I hope the ending dlc is great but it's not like I think the end ruined the series or the game it's just pretty weak compared to the rest of the content.

[CaliGuy033]

Isichar wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

This thread topic doesn't make much sense. Regardless of "feedback", at the end of the day, Mass Effect is BioWare's "story", and they'd tell it the way they want to. You think J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings heavilly based on how his readers wanted the story to progress? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

A book is not a game, bad comparison.

I don't think you understand how analogies work.  It was a fine comparison.  The fact that two things are different doesn't mean they can't be compared.  In fact, all comparisons involve 2 different things.

[zenoxis]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

Wow, OK, couple of things wrong with this. First off, expecting Bioware to cater to all the feedback they got is obviously unreasonable, and people know that. Contrary to popular belief, the internet is not full of idiots, they're just full of people with differing opinions. We know that Bioware can't give us everything, but we expected them to give us at least something we were asking for, discluding the DLC itself because its existence was inevitabe given how atrociously written the ending was. There are plenty of productive arguments on this topic alone that get buried, locked, ignored for whatever arbitrary reason, so Bioware ignoring them is all the more confusing when they've asked for that specific type of feedback. 

Regardless of whether or not Bioware wants to maintain that their artists (even though ME3 is a long shot from being called a legitimate piece of art), it is in their best interest to listen to their fans to some degree in the business sense. The fact that they haven't literally suggests they're trying to commit financial suicide, especially given the kinds of fans Bioware series have had, who would willingly defend the company's every product to its dying breath, until now of course when Bioware has shown their true colors and pretty much ignored every piece of feedback, constructive and otherwise, that THEY ASKED FOR. 

Modifié par zenoxis, 12 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[DreamTension]

tetsutsuru wrote...

DreamTension wrote...


I think we are talking about different things here...

I thought the original topic was concerning BioWare asking the customer directly via the game about the ending, and I thought you were saying they don't need to do that at all because it's their story.  That's where I came in and said the above statement, which I stand by.

I'm not sure where you are going with your final comment. 

No, you're on-track so far.  My apologies for the confusion of my last post.

Essentially, my perspective is that customer feedback really has very little impact, regardless of what's been said in press releases and such.  That's actually a good example of "be careful what you say".  Personally, I have zero qualms about people being called-out on things they said.  It's a safe assumption that we have no influence on the story's progression, but it's good to know about little things on "gameplay" like removing the planet-scanning-for-minerals mini-game as what was in ME2.  Personally, I didn't think it did anything but hamper the story and game's pacing.  Overall, we are in no position to "demand", or "expect" changes.  We can probably pettition for change, and that's mostly it.  Other than that, no one's holding a gun to my head and forcing me to put another penny into another of their products whether I like it or not.

I do agree with you are saying that we have more control over the game play than the story.  I guess I'm more hung up on the developer statements about the ending using all your choices and it won't have a A,B,C ending, the plotholes, the contradictions, and so on (please---these issues havebeen discussed to death....). 

Now, I think what your main points are that they (BioWare/EA) they have no reason to change their story (they don't need to listen to us) and that nobody forced us to buy the game. 
I disagree with these points. 
Changing a story line happens in all mediums, but typically never after the product is released.  But that's not to say never.  Sherlock Holmes was brought back to life, Blade Runner has about 5 different versions, and so many movies/tv shows have had rewrites at the last minute it is completely naive to think these things cannot be changed.  Seriously, go read the original Matrix script (first one I'm talking about) or even the first Alien.  Really different.
Now, I realize you are talking about customer feedback.  But customer feedback is used.

The difference is that movies have screenings where many issues (especially endings) are quickly resolved before the main release.  Of course, this doesn't always mean they change for the better (example on top of my head is I am Legend which was an okay movie but the original ending has a lot more impact which I won't spoil for those who don't know, but the ending that was released was way worse).  The good outweighs the bad more often (but doesn't get mentioned because that's not gossip news or fanboy news, rather).

Still even though it wouldn't be a game-changing move (Fallout 3 absolutely changed the ending and it was absolutely for the better---it made zero sense that you couldn't send Fawkes (a super-mutant who's resistant) into the chamber instead of sacrificing yourself for no reason whatsover), it's still viewed as this huge failure by BioWare if they changed/altered their ending.  I don't get it.  I don't agree with that.

Also, back on to the main points: BioWare DOES have a reason to listen to us: future paid DLC which they were planning on releasing  A BUNCH.  The first ME had two missions that sold reasonably well.  ME2 had 12 DLC that sold very well.  They had so many plans for DLC that are now in real jeopardy because they need their loyal fans to buy these to make them worth while.  BioWare also has another game coming out that many ME players also buy.  It doesn't take much for a company to lose it's followers.  I realize EA funds part of their operations, but put it this way: remember Rare?  How about Silicon Knights?  No?  Well, they were two very succesful companies under Nintendo.  Microsoft bought them and their two games under Microsoft failed big time.  Rare is currently making Kinect games.  I have no clue what Silicon Knights is doing.  My point is that if BioWare has a few $ failures (and note THIS GAME IS NOT A FAILURE, I am not saying that, I am saying afterwards) how quick till EA pulls funding?  So yeah, maybe BioWare SHOULD listen.

Second part (I chose to buy this game): Absolutely.  I did it under false advertisements and statements (see above), but yeah nobody forced me to, but in many ways I was lied to.  I don't see how that's 'entitled' to want what I was told and what I was told to expect.

[Dragoonlordz]

zenoxis wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zeppex wrote...

Well then why ask for player feedback at all? Why makes statements that literally state we created something with you.

Then make other statements like, we didn't know there was a demand for it.

If you tell give me feedback on what we can do better, the people giving you that feedback will generally believe that you will take that into consideration. Unless your just asking to make them feel important,

Yes, but some people interpret "please give us feedback"n as "tell us what to do and we'll for sure do it." Some people believe "I disagree with what you did" is shorthand for "you have to fix things to my specification." And some believe "I suggest this" to be the same as "AGREE WITH ME BECAUSE I'M RIGHT!" This is where discussions start to break down and why so many unproductive arguments happen in the community.

Wow, OK, couple of things wrong with this. First off, expecting Bioware to cater to all the feedback they got is obviously unreasonable, and people know that. Contrary to popular belief, the internet is not full of idiots, they're just full of people with differing opinions. We know that Bioware can't give us everything, but we expected them to give us at least something we were asking for, discluding the DLC itself because its existence was inevitabe given how atrociously written the ending was. There are plenty of productive arguments on this topic alone that get buried, locked, ignored for whatever arbitrary reason, so Bioware ignoring them is all the more confusing when they've asked for that specific type of feedback. 

Regardless of whether or not Bioware wants to maintain that their artists (even though ME3 is a long shot from being called a legitimate piece of art), it is in their best interest to listen to their fans to some degree in the business sense. The fact that they haven't literally suggests they're trying to commit financial suicide, especially given the kinds of fans Bioware series have had, who would willingly defend the company's every product to its dying breath, until now of course when Bioware has shown their true colors and pretty much ignored every piece of feedback, constructive and otherwise, that THEY ASKED FOR. 

They did listen, they picked what another group wanted because was inline with what they agreed with in principle compared to what another group wanted. They listened, they just did not pick your solution instead went with anothers.

[Zhuinden]

YonatanJ wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

One reason is that, generally, we have our own ideas about how to design games and stories and don't design them by committee in collaboration with the players. That's not really how the developer-player relationship works.

I don't remember where exactly, but awhile ago, an offical bioware employee said that the story of Mass Effect was built along with the fans, therefore I'd say that some form of collaboration was created. I don't see why consulting with your active fanbase, be it through surveys or whatever form of communication is wrong and not a legit way to create games.
After we all, we are returning consumers and we pay for the products we get. We should have a say to some degree. (In my opinion, that is).

By the way, you keep forgetting that the entire concept of Mass Effect is that the player, his choices, his morals and what not are important to the story and eventually what forwards it. This is a point where playerchoice has been completely broken (AKA the concept of the game was broken). Therefore, the LEAST you can do is listening to what the fans have to say and respond to their questions, unlike now. Communication is key.

This is what you are looking for, apparently it was just as valid as stating the game doesn't have an A,B,C ending..
(Okay, that's not nice of me. There were various instances where fan feedback was taken in, for example the "Prothy the Prothean" or "Blasto the Hanar Spectre" cameos. But still, with the ending fiasco, it's sort of hard to take it seriously.)

Well, at least Stanley gave a reasonable response. I already feel we are collectively less insignificant.

Modifié par Zhuinden, 12 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[Adranathz]

most succesful games works with constant feedback from Players
Bw should asked what ppl expect for ME3 and work around that

Ghostcrawler in wow
ID Back in days with Quake
CS Elite players working to balance the game
Dragon age team


There is no sense in your explanation, we dont tell you how to make the game, we just help bw about what are we waiting for a Trilogy end game

You can check the forum 1 year ago, and you will see the same mistakes that ppl were calling long time ago in this game, 1 year after

There is no excuses for that

[xJohnsen]

Because Sony wouldn't let them because it would be on xbox as well.